Hi guys I have been following Loftys sticky on here for Mr Muscle treatment. I have a 2007 1.9 pd tdi 110  elegance estate. remapped three years ago from 110 bhp to 130 for a little extra overtaking power and economy.

I did a fair bit of pootling around locally and when I did a longer journey the dreaded classic limp mode appeared pulling onto the M56 motorway ramp last year. It reset without flagging MIL lamp up by cycling ignition.

The problem re occured again during the winter but I lived with it till warmer weather arrived- the performance had deteriorated going into limp mode more frequently if I put my boot down.

 

I have a BXE ENGINE which also has an EGR cooler making it a bit difficult to access egr pipe for mr muscle -so the first 3 attempts of mr muscle were dosed by taking off exhaust and carefully putting pipe into turbo between vanes and moving actuator. the result from first dose was encouraging and two further attempts produced marginal improvements. I then decided to shorten an allen key so it would fit the egr pipe and dose again from EGR side of turbo.

 

This time I thought I had cracked it - the improvement was amazing .... I took it up a big hill foot to floor got up to errrr ! 100mph with a smile on my face thinking I had cracked it. then I took my foot off accelerator and coasted to 70mph and then accelerated - Limp mode again. I cycled ignition- back in business. I booted it again and this time emissions workshop pinged on dash with engine lamp illuminated. I wondered if it was just crap going through system , but it still wasnt 100%.

 

If I keep to speed limit (which I normally do) its fine but I wanted to replicate a fully loaded car when we go camping to france next month hence the more aggressive driving.

I did two more swift doses of mr muscle through egr - and pulled actuator down from underneath car 200 times on each occasion, still a little bit gritty feeling though its too hard to press in by fingers for full travel.

 

(Apologies for pre amble but just so the picture is clear.)

 

I had car checked at a local garage via Bosch scanner and snap on - I requested he cycle Actuator via software and do a live running log of pressures- nothing way out of line found - and he checked every solenoid on the system with no faults previously logged or showing currently.

 

I told him about remap and he said it may be the boost might push the pressure over the standard parameters of the sensor and cause limp -however the car was mapped on a rolling road and performed impeccably until the limp modes?

I know the Mr Muscle has definitely improved the performance of car for sure,

But could it be still some residual hard embedded carbon causing sticky vanes -even after that much Mr Muscle ??

Its a pig of a job to remove turbo from back of engine, I have arthritis in my right hand which makes the job harder too.

 

I don't have VCDS - I DID HAVE A VAG k+can COMMANDER 1.4 CHINESE CABLE FROM FLEA BAY which sometimes showed codes when it felt like it, though I use a generic code reader which says p0234 -overboost ?? when I plug it in.

Any suggestions  out there .I am running out of ideas.

Thanks in advance - if you are still awake after reading all this ....give yerself a pat on the back !

cheers guys.

 

I had a 110TDI in mk1.

 

Initially I had the turbo changed, then a few years later I took it off and cleaned it.  A few years after that I found I had to apply the "Lofty clean" every could of months, and had to pop open the bonnet every time before driving the car and "free up" the actuator on the turbo if I wanted to be relatively sure it wasn't going to go into limp mode.

 

After a couple of years of this (I am surprised the bonnet release cable didn't wear out), I PX'd the car.  I suspect it is now resting in a scrap yard somewhere now.

 

If you can't get full, smooth travel on the actuator with without a massive dent in the end of your finger/thumb, then the control rings are rusty / vanes are still clogged up.  The only cure is to remove and clean, imho.

If yours is a BXE, it's a PD105. There was never a PD110. The 110 engine in the mk1 Octavia is the older style non-PD injectors.

 

Are you 100% sure that it's not anything else like a boost pipe that's split causing the overboost?

I had a 110TDI in mk1.

 

Initially I had the turbo changed, then a few years later I took it off and cleaned it.  A few years after that I found I had to apply the "Lofty clean" every could of months, and had to pop open the bonnet every time before driving the car and "free up" the actuator on the turbo if I wanted to be relatively sure it wasn't going to go into limp mode.

 

After a couple of years of this (I am surprised the bonnet release cable didn't wear out), I PX'd the car.  I suspect it is now resting in a scrap yard somewhere now.

 

If you can't get full, smooth travel on the actuator with without a massive dent in the end of your finger/thumb, then the control rings are rusty / vanes are still clogged up.  The only cure is to remove and clean, imho.

thanks for  your reply, I cannot fully  depress the actuator with my finger - I have to use a claw hammer to hook top of actuator as I cant even see it clearly then pull it down from underneath the car.  thats the one piece of information I could not find - how easy or hard should it be to operate the actuator by hand, everyone seems to use a bar to depress it from above engine - but on a BXE  there is the small matter of an EGR Cooler obscuring it from above, so its only possible to get at it from underneath . thanks again for your valued input mate.

I did Mr Muscle on my brother in law's Passat, and I'm sure that also had an EGR cooler. 

 

All I took off was the brass EGR connection pipe, and could then feed the pipe directly into the turbo.

 

I did this from underneath as I had the car on a pair of ramps like below.

 

If yours is a BXE, it's a PD105. There was never a PD110. The 110 engine in the mk1 Octavia is the older style non-PD injectors.

 

Are you 100% sure that it's not anything else like a boost pipe that's split causing the overboost?

 you are correct, mine is a 77kw engine, sorry for confusion.

I have had everything checked on a bosch scanner and visually checked vacc hoses etc all seems sound. I disconnected MAF sensor from air intake last night -and it seemed to drive smoother, and I had to drive like a lunatic to get it into limp mode,, indeed 4000 rpm could not put it into limp going through the gears -neither could a 2 mile 8% hill at 100mph , but then when I accelerated from 70mph to 85 with boot to the floor it went into limp again. I am curious to whether the sensor is actually doing anything. I dont want to fork out money on a new MAF sensor - or a Turbo if not needed - so I will spray contact cleaner over sensor today and re connect see if there is any difference, though deep down I suspect it may be a turbo foo job to clean it out. Anyone removed one from a BXE  and can pass any crafty tips on how to remove it best way , would be appreciated . cheers

thanks for  your reply, I cannot fully  depress the actuator with my finger - I have to use a claw hammer to hook top of actuator as I cant even see it clearly then pull it down from underneath the car.  thats the one piece of information I could not find - how easy or hard should it be to operate the actuator by hand, everyone seems to use a bar to depress it from above engine - but on a BXE  there is the small matter of an EGR Cooler obscuring it from above, so its only possible to get at it from underneath . thanks again for your valued input mate.

 

Ok, so your on a different engine to what I am talking about, however in theory it should be a smooth easy movement.

 

If you disconnect the vacuum pipe from the n75 valve on the bulkhead (or where it is), and suck on the pipe (other end connected to the actuator) does it move smoothly and give full travel?  Does it creak and groan when it moves?

 

Other things to check, as are you mentioned MAF, but also the MAP sensor - log actual vs requested boost in VCDS.

 

I did sometimes find that I could boot it up a hill ok, but once over the top of the hill if I backed off, it would then drop into limp even for gentle acceleration in order to maintain say 60mph along the flat and that would require an ignition cycle.  I'e got a 105PD CR now, so I was hoping I had left all this behind me.  :-(

Ok, so your on a different engine to what I am talking about, however in theory it should be a smooth easy movement.

 

If you disconnect the vacuum pipe from the n75 valve on the bulkhead (or where it is), and suck on the pipe (other end connected to the actuator) does it move smoothly and give full travel?  Does it creak and groan when it moves?

 

Other things to check, as are you mentioned MAF, but also the MAP sensor - log actual vs requested boost in VCDS.

 

I did sometimes find that I could boot it up a hill ok, but once over the top of the hill if I backed off, it would then drop into limp even for gentle acceleration in order to maintain say 60mph along the flat and that would require an ignition cycle.  I'e got a 105PD CR now, so I was hoping I had left all this behind me.  :-(

thats exactly what happened to me -after cresting a hill 8% 2 mile long  - at 100mph - I backed off and it went into silent limp mode(no lamp just loss of power) it pulls very well - but slightly raspy noise from engine -which seems to abate with MAF  disconnected ?? Ive messaged a lad off here locally who has VCDS. spoke to garage who reckon by my description its mechanical?? he said hes never had to clean out carbon from a VAG  turbo and hes done loads ????

thats exactly what happened to me -after cresting a hill 8% 2 mile long  - at 100mph - I backed off and it went into silent limp mode(no lamp just loss of power) it pulls very well - but slightly raspy noise from engine -which seems to abate with MAF  disconnected ?? Ive messaged a lad off here locally who has VCDS. spoke to garage who reckon by my description its mechanical?? he said hes never had to clean out carbon from a VAG  turbo and hes done loads ????

 

Most likely the control rings, and no amount of Mr Muscle will cure that.  Got any VAG independant garages you could speak too,  EGR and rocker breather is a terrible combination for causing build up of black tar/sludge - or at least it was in the older engines and I can't see how it can really have changed in the more modern engines, unless the exhaust gasses are really clean (and then why bother to re-circulate them)

 

Without the MAF connected it will be running on a generic air profile which will affect the way the car runs (a bit), and also a log a MAF short to earth error too.

Most likely the control rings, and no amount of Mr Muscle will cure that.  Got any VAG independant garages you could speak too,  EGR and rocker breather is a terrible combination for causing build up of black tar/sludge - or at least it was in the older engines and I can't see how it can really have changed in the more modern engines, unless the exhaust gasses are really clean (and then why bother to re-circulate them)

 

Without the MAF connected it will be running on a generic air profile which will affect the way the car runs (a bit), and also a log a MAF short to earth error too.

I noted when I removed the egr pipe from exhaust to cooler - the inside was remarkably clean and also looking up from below into cooler I could see a flap which was nice and clean, so that gave me a bit of comfort , as it suggests that it wasnt coked up to the eyeballs inside engine. As you mentioned the MAF  sensor disconnect did bring up a fault code and emissions workshop flashes on dash each time I start engine, but the car did seem to accelerate a bit smoother -though it took slightly longer for the boost to kick in, and it seemed to run slightly better without it connected, and certainly seemed to go faster once I had my foot to the floor. -it seemed to take more higher revs to produce the silent  limp mode with the MAF  disconnected.

 

The guy I spoke to at a local garage is of the opinion that carbon inside the rings is not the problem and that he services around 90 of these cars a year and has never had to take a turbo off to clean it, he said " Dont take too much notice of the pub mechanic on the internet or you tube"  -but the evidence is very real that carbon build up does indeed cause this particular problem on VNT Turbos. Plenty of people on here have had the problem and carbon has been the culprit  and they cant all be wrong - plus Ive seen the difference in performance personally after mr muscle treatment . Its not really  in the Garages interests to promote mr muscle is it !

 

He recommends a "global scan" and see what that brings up. My first hunch is the actuator may be sticky- and if  disconnected from VNT arm on Turbo -then the VNT arm should be free enough to flick with the fingers to open and close rings inside. If the VNT arm is stiff then that points to internal constriction of rings (eg carbon) if the the VNT arm is easy to flick -then that surely suggests the actuator - or something on the Vaccum control is causing the problem ??

 

I am going to try and clean the MAF sensor with electrical contact cleaner now - then reconnect it and see how it runs-.

 

Many thanks for pointing me towards  the MAP sensor, I will see what tests I can get done on it . I am almost tempted to buy my own VCDS though I dont know how much the fix for this is going to cost, and we are going on Holiday to France in this car next month so its getting rather urgent and potentially rather expensive. will keep you posted.

Thanks once again for your time mate

The control ring side can get dirty (here is mine):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 June, 201511 yr by mbames

The control ring side can get dirty (here is mine):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

wow thats a helluva lot of gunge in a very restricted space ! did you try mr muscle before you removed turbo and stripped it ?  How did you find the job of removing turbo? (mine looks a right sod to get at) did you get it out from below or above?

 

Mine is behind bulkhead at back of engine. I dont know whether it will come out without removing drive shaft. it looks so restricted.

I think the EGR cooler will have to come off from above it and then maybe it comes up from the top after making some room with cooler removal ?

 

was it all OK when you put it back together ?   looks like a big job I need a haynes manual or some intel on how to remove it.

update , I cleaned both MAF  and MAP sensors with electrical contact cleaner - though they both looked ok, I figured a spray might improve contacts.

I removed the Actuator vac line and put a piece of aquarium clear plastic tubing on and sucked the pipe and watched the actuator arm drive in, - I had to kind of build up the vaccum by mouth by putting my tounge over  end of tube but the arm seemed to move ok -I checked with my finger on top of actuator to see if I could feel any roughness through the travel - and it seemed ok.I held the vaccum with my mouth so plunger was right down then sprayed it with WD 40 PTFE spray and let the vaccum go, I did this a couple of times then put it all together and re started engine.

 

Wife turned up from work so I asked her to rev gently as I observed actuator arm which seemed to move in synch with revs. I asked her to trun off engine and a few seconds later I heard an audible "plop" sound which was the vac coming off- I had not heard this before, but I think I  read on here somewhere through one of the hundreds of posts Ive read on this subject, that its the actuator re seating to its stop position.

 

Took it for test drive  warmed up engine and booted it, - BINGO !!! no LIMP MODE

 

I really pushed it hard and at the point where it normally went into limp mode just over 3000 rpm up a hill that climbs for around 2 miles , it was still going and pulling away at 3500 rpm and I was still gaining speed at 110mph. I backed off to 60mph and pulled onto another motorway junction - the classic place to go into limp mode...I stayed in 5th at 50mph and accelerated, this is where the boost would normally take it into limp , but it just kept on gaining speed like it should do, back up to 100mph then I backed it off again to 70mph and tried a few foot to floor moments but could not get it to go into limp mode.

Still cant quite believe it and will need to drive it a few more times before I am totally convinced after arsing with it for the last two weeks .

Many thanks for your Input guys much appreciated.! :thumbup:

Fingers crossed yours is fixed, but don't be surprised if it still does go into limp in the future.  Regular exercise is the going to be no bad thing.  The "Pop" is probably the EGR anti-shudder valve re-opening (I assume the mk2 has this).

 

On the mk1 there was a bit more room.  Official instructions say move a driveshaft, but I got mine out without.  Oil supply line off, Inlet manifold off, exhaust manifold off.  Wasn't overly taxing, but was quite time consuming.  I hadn't attempted (or heard of) the Mr Muscle approach when I took mine off for cleaning.

Fingers crossed yours is fixed, but don't be surprised if it still does go into limp in the future.  Regular exercise is the going to be no bad thing.  The "Pop" is probably the EGR anti-shudder valve re-opening (I assume the mk2 has this).

 

On the mk1 there was a bit more room.  Official instructions say move a driveshaft, but I got mine out without.  Oil supply line off, Inlet manifold off, exhaust manifold off.  Wasn't overly taxing, but was quite time consuming.  I hadn't attempted (or heard of) the Mr Muscle approach when I took mine off for cleaning.

 

I am very wary at the moment of it reverting back to limp mode. Interestingly enough, I wasn't getting the popping sound when engine was stopped before fiddling with it yesterday. ( I think MK2 has anti shudder vv not sure where it is though) I read a submission from a mechanic on another board who said always listen for the pop sound -then you know your actuator is OK . the popping wasn't evident until last night anyway

 

 

I waggled the N75 cap where all the vac lines go in I thought it was a bit wobbly. I unclipped it and gave it a wiggle, then re clipped it in- didn't actually remove it completely though.

Bottom  line I dont know what actually fixed it for the time being but it drove much much better. (suspect maybe something on the vac side of the controls) surely if the rings are jammed inside - then they stay jammed inside until the unit is cleaned out?

 

I am going on a 50 mile trip tomorrow with 4 adults aboard so that should give me an opportunity to see how it pulls with a bit of Ballast onboard, and replicate the car packed with camping gear etc.

 

I will keep you and the board informed as I have followed dozens of posts where people have a problem and try this and that but never return to say what actually fixed the problem, especially on the TDI forums Audi etc.

Thanks again for your input mate , very much appreciated, I was getting into a dark place with this and running out of ideas.

I think I am going to buy VCDS next week anyway, in case this happens again- the local garage wants £55 per hr plus vat to look at car so VCDS will soon pay for itself at this bloody rate!

Cheers - lets see what tomorrows journey holds ......watch this space

Fingers crossed yours is fixed, but don't be surprised if it still does go into limp in the future.  Regular exercise is the going to be no bad thing.  The "Pop" is probably the EGR anti-shudder valve re-opening (I assume the mk2 has this).

 

On the mk1 there was a bit more room.  Official instructions say move a driveshaft, but I got mine out without.  Oil supply line off, Inlet manifold off, exhaust manifold off.  Wasn't overly taxing, but was quite time consuming.  I hadn't attempted (or heard of) the Mr Muscle approach when I took mine off for cleaning.

Just an update, from yesterdays Journey. I had four adults in the car and golf clubs etc,so the car was having to do more work.I opened it up a few times on the way out and it behaved itself, and coming home I included the long hill at around 8% in the journey on purpose to see if I could get it into limp mode, got it to 3500 rpm climbing and planted foot to the floor and thankfully it just kept on pulling without flipping into Limp mode.

After musing over all the fault finding I carried out, I kind of half suspect that the N75 may have something to do with it, as I believe this operates all the vac movements on the engine...I didnt hear the plop sound of the anti shudder v/v each time I shut off the engine , until I had unclipped the top of the N 75 v/v and re clipped it as I thought it seemed a bit on the loose side.

Maybe I was slightly losing vac somewhere? but at this moment in time I am just elated that I dont have to strip out the turbo.

 

How do you find the 1.6 tdi ? is it a bit sluggish or ok performance wise ? I was looking at one as my next replacement , but wondered whether there is a big difference in performance?

cheers

In my mk1, the n75 control the actuator for the turbo, there was another similar looking on the bulkhead for the which controlled how much EGR recirculation took place, and a 3rd one clipped under the EGR which controlled the anti-shudder.

 

If you had had a vacuum leak, then I doubt anything would have worked and the car would have been in a permanent limp status.

 

the 1.6 feels somewhat slower than my old 110.  I haven't managed to hit the quoted mpg, which I would do with ease on the old car.  I have tried towing and don't often have many people in the car, so not sure on that front either.  I'm not sure I'd buy another one, but it does offer cheap motoring (low tax, pretty economical, not that ugly to look at, etc)

In my mk1, the n75 control the actuator for the turbo, there was another similar looking on the bulkhead for the which controlled how much EGR recirculation took place, and a 3rd one clipped under the EGR which controlled the anti-shudder.

 

If you had had a vacuum leak, then I doubt anything would have worked and the car would have been in a permanent limp status.

 

the 1.6 feels somewhat slower than my old 110.  I haven't managed to hit the quoted mpg, which I would do with ease on the old car.  I have tried towing and don't often have many people in the car, so not sure on that front either.  I'm not sure I'd buy another one, but it does offer cheap motoring (low tax, pretty economical, not that ugly to look at, etc)

cheers for responses, nice to run stuff by other people when you get totally immersed into a problem on your car.

 

I think I will try a test drive in a 1.6 greenline estate and see how it feels in comparison.

I am looking at buying VCDS  very soon after almost capitulating and taking my car to a garage for a global scan , until I nailed the limp mode problem the other night - though I am still not 100% sure what actually sorted it, as I carried out 3 procedures- eg MAP sensor clean (thanks for the heads up there mate) MAF  sensor clean, and the manual operation of actuator via mouth with a piece of aquarium air tubing, plus wiggling around top of N 75 v/v.

I  don't know if there are any electrical connections inside the N 75 that may benefit from a spray of electrical contact cleaner to ward off any possible oxidising of contacts that may cause problems.

I am scouring the web trying to get a better aquaint as to how this N 75 operates. (darkside development s describe sign s of N75 failure as QUOTE

"Common symptoms of failure are boost issues, EGR / Emissions Faults or a buzzing / vibrating noise coming from under the bonnet"

 

Best regards, and thanks again for your valued input