My car's starter is wearing out, I've noticed that sometimes the engine shakes horribly for a second while starting, the authorised dealer said that the starter is too weak.

So I was looking online on autodoc, they offer a lot, both new ones and remanufactured. I found the Valeo to be the best choice for the price - it's new, 2 kW power, 130 GBP (part 438175).

Bosch is also similar, however it's 1.7 kW, price is about the same.

 

Does anyone know what's the power of the original one inside? Is it 1.7 or 2 kW? Is it okay if I get the more powerful one, would it make any difference?

Also, what's the number of holes? According to autodoc website, some have 2, some have 3, all are supposed to fit. These two have 3 holes each. 

 

Are the Valeo starters any good? Would you rather get new one or remanufactured? The price difference is about 30 pounds, it's not that much in my opinion.

 

My car is 1.9 TDI, 77 kW, BXE engine, JCR transmission (5-speed manual)

 

Its not your starter its the DMF that has failed and will soon destroy the clutch and the bellhousing if you dont replace it ASAP.

 

How many miles/kms has your vehicle covered?

 

I can think of only one thing that your dealer should be authorised for, - giving bad advice!

I just replaced the clutch and DMF 2 months ago, new Sachs set. The problem was here even before the replacement and continues now, no difference. It has 180 000 km

You replaced it yourself so know 100% that it was done?

 

Never known a pre-engaged starter exhibit the fault you mention but its a perfect description of a failed dual mass flywheel.

 

If it were to be an underpowered starter then every vehicle would do the same when the battery is partially discharged.

 

Your vehicle should start in half a revolution anyway with the fast start feature, maybe a cam position sensor problem? - Worth doing a VCDS scan.

I didn't replace it myself, I actually had major problems with the clutch replacement and the mechanic, but that's a story for another day, maybe I'll share here if anyone's interested. But I'm sure it was replaced because the old one was so bad the car was shaking every time I released the clutch pedal, now there are no more problems like this.

 

I don't have any problems while the engine is cold, the quick shake happens only when the engine is warm, and only in about 50% of cases. Some people told me that the bendix of the starter probably needs replacing and/or the brushes. It usually happens around this age of vehicle. 

 

I've done an OBD scan, nothing related to it came up, I had 4 codes for the glow plugs (P161A, P161B, P161C, P161D), I reset them and they never came back up (I still ordered new ones so I can replace them if needed, just in case). I also had a P1664, also erased, never came back up.

 

The dealership told me that they've done a complete scan, checked the battery and the starter, and that the starter doesn't have enough revolutions. They are also asking 200 GBP for a remanufactured one (not a chance I'll give them). I actually came in for a checkup cause I hear a whistle sound and I have silicate in the oil, so I thought that there was a leak in the air intake. They didn't tell me anything, just told me that I needed also a new turbocharger (asking 1500 pounds for remanufactured one and labour). So I don't trust them much, they are crazy. I had the turbocharger replaced with a new one 3 years ago. But I still think the starter needs service.

 

Possibly the one way sprag clutch in the pinion slipping. Whatever the reason you will be changing the complete starter.

 

Coming back to your original question I reckon even the cheapest lower power starter will be OK, my rationale is having the same engine as you but with for now at least a properly functioning starter motor I know that it will start instantly in half a revolution even when the battery is discharged enough to throw up a boatload of faultcodes for canbus comm errors.

 

Tell us your garage + DMF tale of woe and I will tell you mine 🙄 14 years ago, one and only time in my life that I had no choice but to use a garage, the wound is still sore!

Since I don't know exactly what's wrong with the starter, I don't know how much is the repair going to be, I'll order the new one and get it mounted right away. Then I'll see if the old one is worth being repaired, if so, I'll do it and try to sell it online. Thanks for the advice.

 

Oh man, the clutch problems took a few years of my life haha

I bought a DMF+clutch LuK set from a "online shop" that doesn't actually have its own website but sells on a general site like craigslist. Sounds suspicious, I know, but I've heard from quite a few people that ordered from them, they never had an issue. They sell everything, from oil, additives, parts for almost all cars to car shampoos. You get a real receipt, just like you went to a physical store. So I was pretty sure it's a genuine item, everything seemed fine.

I took the set to my local mechanic that I've already had business with a few times (I chose not to get parts from mechanics anymore, cause they charge 50-150% more on the actual part than what they buy it for). I leave the car for a day, pick it up in the evening, he says everything's fine, job's done. 

A few weeks later I'm driving through the city, 4th gear, I step on the gas a bit harder and the revs go up but there's no pull like I'm used to. I know it's the clutch slipping. I go to the mechanic, he told me that on this part everything is correct, that it must be a defective clutch. I didn't want to pay him again to take it off just to take a look, so I continue driving for a few more days, but it only got worse, it started slipping in 3rd and 2nd gear. I had no choice but to go back to the mechanic and have him fix it in whichever way is necessary. I leave the car with him, he calls me at the end of the day and tells me that a seal on one part was defective and it started leaking gear oil, which caused the clutch to slip. He replaced the whole set, including the DMF with a Sachs kit, charged me double for the set that it would cost in a shop + labour + 1 L of VAG gearbox oil. I haven't had problems since.

I took the Luk set to the shop I bought it from, they had me fill out a complaint and told me that they'll be sending it back to the manufacturer for evaluation. It's been 2 months since then, no information yet.

Based on my luck, I know what's going to happen. LuK will say the part got damaged while fitting and that it's the mechanics fault. Mechanic will claim that the part is faulty. I'll be left with nothing to do, but cry for 2 clutch sets I paid for. They'll probably charge me for sending the clutch for evaluation back to LuK as well.

 

There are no oil seals on the clutch and flywheel set to fail so it will have been the gearbox input shaft or less likely the crankshaft oil seal, if LUK ever get back to you it will be to say that the clutch failed due to oil contamination from an external source.

 

Editted, you said gear oil, I didn't read it carefully.

 

Shouldn't require a new flywheel but we both know how yours and pretty much every other mechanic works.

 

I really really hope for you that the starter will be the culprit because if not the conclusion does not bear thinking about.

Edited 1 June, 20197 yr by J.R.

Accoring to the mechanic, the seal on the thrust bearing or relase bearing guide, not sure what's the correct translation in english, was the culprit. This is what that part looks like: https://bit.ly/2QDeq9c

I have no idea honestly what that part is or does, but that's what I put in the report send to LuK.

I know the flywheel didn't need replacing, but I told him to take everything off so I can send it back to LuK. The shop from which I bought the kit agreed that if it was the bad part, they will refund me for the first clutch and labour. Their first suggestion was to have it taken off and wait for it to come back from inspection, but I couldn't wait 2 months or more without my car being operative.

Anyway, thanks for the wishes, I also hope it's the starter, I really can't stand being ripped off by mechanics anymore.

Funny story, just last week I almost failed the yearly inspection cause my brake fluid was bad, eventhough I had an excellent rated mechanics shop (different from this one) change it 2 months prior. Turns out they just sucked it out of the container and put new in, didn't even bleed it at the wheels. I'm going crazy.

 

OK, I can see that the release bearing is a different set up to what I am used to, if it goes together the way it looks to me then failure of the seal could allow transmission oil through to the clutch plate.

 

Carrying on with my paranoia with the motor trade, you said the shaking on starting was present both before and after the DMF swop, did it by any chance miraculously disappear during the short time that the first DMF & clutch were fitted?

On 02/06/2019 at 02:03, J.R. said:

Carrying on with my paranoia with the motor trade, you said the shaking on starting was present both before and after the DMF swop, did it by any chance miraculously disappear during the short time that the first DMF & clutch were fitted?

Honestly, I don't remember really, I don't pay much attention to it, but I think it was still there. What did you have in mind?

That when they needed to order another DMF and clutch because yours was sent off to Luk they still had your old one possibly because to their eyes it looked in good condition and virtually unworn which the clutch certainly would have been,  DMF wear or failure is not apparent to the eye unless it was catastrophic.

 

I knew a dodgy mechanic who had a shelf full of worn unserviceable parts, the nosepeice to my Sierra 4x4 gearbox he pulled out of the rubbish bin where I had put it (the OD was worn making the release bearing rattle) to add to his "money for nothing" stock, he said that from now on whenever he did a clutch on one or removed the gearbox he would present the customer with my old part telling them that it was theirs, it needed replacing, if they did not already have a rattle they soon would have etc.......................

 

They always agreed and ended up paying for something that was not bought or fitted, I dont use garages but advise everybody to insist that the garage gives them their old parts when new ones are supposedly fitted, the reactions of a few garages were very revealing.

 

Only you will know whether your garage is capable of a stunt like that. I sincerely hope that your problem is the starter motor because what you describe sounds exactly like advanced DMF failure just before the clutch pressure plate disintegrates and starts chewing through the bellhousing.

 

Tha shaking that mine made on start up was like the engine was violently reversing direction, it felt like it was going to tear out of its mountings, I likened it to a terrier shaking a rat to break its neck.

I completely get what you were saying, I don’t doubt at all at least 1/3 mechanics reuse old parts. But I’m completely sure they didn’t fit my old DMF cause it was soo bad, it was shaking like crazy. Besides, there were 2 months apart from installation of the first one and the second one. My fear is that he did fit an old DMF, not my own old, but someone elses, and I have no way of knowing. Do you happen to know if it can be tested somehow without removal and in an inexpensive way? I’ve lost all trust in this guy.

But as for the shaking on a warm start, turns out it was a combination of two faults. The starter was to blame because I had it replaced with a new one a few days ago, it now it starts perfectly. I opened up the old one, the carbon brushes were worn out completely. 

Apparently, there’s a thing with PD engines that the ECU injects much less fuel when starting a warm vs when starting a cold engine. And it’s normal for a starter to weaken a little over the years. So people either have the starter repaired or replaced or have one of those guys that do chip tuning to set up the map to inject more fuel at start. It’s about 50 euros, so cheaper than the new starter and about the cost of repairing one.

 

The second problem was that the battery was almost completely drained out because I’m making a lot of very short trips around town and the alternator is also weak, 13.5 V about. Two days before I replaced the starter, I had to jump start the car, the battery was completly drained out. I thought it was bad, but they tested it and it’s on 97% of health. It must be the alternator. There’s nothing that would drain it when the car was off.

I think the PD warm start thing is that the ECU will not inject the fuel until the RPM has gone above a minimum which with your worn starter brushes you were on the threshold of.

 

Add in a slight drop in battery voltage from the short runs and it will explain why it did not start and you had to use jump leads, at 97% capacity I would not replace the battery and at 13.5v charging voltage I would not replace the alternator although if you can buy and fit a  brush pack it will probably bring you back the missing 0.7v and prevent a future failure.

 

I now have a little LED voltage readout on a USB charging port so can keep an eye on the alternator, I will keep my ears open on warm starts for starter deterioration, it will probably be quite apparent as with the quick start feature of the PD engine it always fires in 1/2 a revolution, if it cranks longer I will know where to look.

 

The real value of this forum to me is to gain knowledge like the above and know what to look for if and when the problem manifests, otherwise all the knowledge would be gained the hard way.