Does anybody else find this completely patronising ?

No...but then I don't understand what it says 'cos I don't have a degree in English...

Rob.

The point is motoring is cheap. It has stayed the same in real term prices over the last 20 years during which income has raised. In an economic market all economists say transport is too cheap hence we travel too much hence all the pollution. Therefore unless you ration car use cost is the msot effective way to reduce demand. In relaity if oil prices hadn't gone up tax would have, the prices have too rise to tackle congestion and global warming.

Fuel tax is taking the p*ss IMHO, because you get taxed on buying a car, taxed on cleaning a car, taxed on servicing your car, taxed on filling it up, taxed for having it on the road, taxed on the compulsorary insurance, taxed on fitting parts to it and the parts themselves.

I mean don't get me wrong but it's something like £56billion bought in from tax on motorists and £7bn spent on roads etc.

You want me to take a train, sure but oh hang on it's stupidy expensive and the service while better isn't great.

Does anybody else find this completely patronising ?

I'm sure it wasn't intended to be.

[\QUOTE]

nah was not intended to be at all. I just wanted to point out why some people don't understand why it has increased and why it has to increase! I just wanted to show others the opposite point!

Infact it does sounds patronising but not meant to be like you said:O

I have been driving since march 2000.

Yes the price of petrol has increased alot since I started but generally other things have increased in similar amounts.

I am really tight with my money ASWELL but I know that the increase is needed because of the problems in the world we live in. It's easy to just disregard all the oil problems/shortages around the world but we can't as it's just not sustainable. The shortages have an affect on the price of petrol and because demand is always going up and supplies are ever diminishing the price will go up all the time! You have just got to think. It's easy for me to see this because I have done a business Degree and it helps to see this more clearly. (not meant to be patronising just explaining why some people think they have just put the price up for a laugh)

I have had a 1.1 fiesta ' date=' a 1.2 clio and now soon a furbie VRS 1.9tdi which all have a similar MPG which is good and the price of diesel and petrol was something I used to make my decision of what car I wanted/could afford.

If you think you are paying too much for petrol you need to get a more economical car!

what car have you got out of interest Bengie??[/quote']

No offence but I don't think you're seeing this clearly at all, it's not that simple. You've missed a fundamental point. The basics of elasticity of price vs demand is based on neo-conservative macro economic theory which takes a free market as given. Where the government is:

a) involved in the 'free' market in the first place, or

taxes ONE commodity (fuel) at a massive level compared with other commodities.

Then you have distortion of the market so the price vs demand argument is very compromised. In this case this is because the only true element in here that is operating on the true price vs demand free market priniciple is the actual price of crude, this is the cheapest part. The problem in the UK is the level of taxation added by government as a percentage of the cost of that oil, ( and the fuel tax escalator etc), so in effect instead of a true price vs demand situation, we have one whereby the price increases at the pumps in a disproportionate level to the increase in demand for the crude oil.

This is not about business, it's about economics. How much other stuff is taxed at this level? Fuel may have gone up as well as other items, but they were somewhat unlikely to have a starting point of a taxation level of around 300%.

No offence but I don't think you're seeing this clearly at all' date=' it's not that simple. You've missed a fundamental point. The basics of elasticity of price vs demand is based on neo-conservative macro economic theory which takes a free market as given. Where the government is:

a) involved in the 'free' market in the first place, or

taxes ONE commodity (fuel) at a massive level compared with other commodities.

Then you have distortion of the market so the price vs demand argument is very compromised. In this case this is because the only true element in here that is operating on the true price vs demand free market priniciple is the actual price of crude, this is the cheapest part. The problem in the UK is the level of taxation added by government as a percentage of the cost of that oil, ( and the fuel tax escalator etc), so in effect instead of a true price vs demand situation, we have one whereby the price increases at the pumps in a disproportionate level to the increase in demand for the crude oil.

This is not about business, it's about economics. How much other stuff is taxed at this level? Fuel may have gone up as well as other items, but they were somewhat unlikely to have a starting point of a taxation level of around 300%.[/quote']

at the end of the day you don't pay a lot more for the increase!

Also it is very very simple!

Oil demand is increasing oil reserves are decreasing! The oil price will always go up no matter! if the gov. decreased tax on fuel then other services would lose out, also decreasing the cost of motoring and peeople will be wastful!

Shame we just use way to much now and depend on it!

pay the extra you tight get!

at the end of the day you don't pay a lot more for the increase!

Also it is very very simple!

Oil demand is increasing oil reserves are decreasing! The oil price will always go up no matter! if the gov. decreased tax on fuel then other services would lose out' date=' also decreasing the cost of motoring and peeople will be wastful!

Shame we just use way to much now and depend on it!

pay the extra you tight get![/quote']

Read the post. The problem is not the rise in the price of crude oil. The problem is the percentage increase in tax added onto it. If there is a requirement for more taxation then that should be implemented as general taxation, no reason why fuel tax should prop up the nations tax system. Do people that do low mileages, or not drive at all, not use public services?

Can't be that simple if you don't understand that.

Read the post. The problem is not the rise in the price of crude oil. The problem is the percentage increase in tax added onto it. If there is a requirement for more taxation then that should be implemented as general taxation' date=' no reason why fuel tax should prop up the nations tax system. Do people that do low mileages, or not drive at all, not use public services?

Can't be that simple if you don't understand that.[/quote']

Yes I totally get what you mean.

But it would not be a sustainable way of doing things because if they went down the route of taking tax off petrol etc then all the other services would have restricted income and then they will fall into disrepair.

I can't see how they can chnage the way it is as it would be very difficult to do it.

They also are taxing high because they need to decrease the amount of vehicles on the road to decrease congestion and pollution in and aroubnd cities.

fair enough it's not so simple but at the end of the day I don't mind the petrol prices. it's not that expensive top fill up or even drive a car so why are you bothered? if you are bothered buy a more economical car like others have done rather than wining like a B**** lol only kidding just had to say that line!

btw the cost of driving a car is lower than 10 years ago in proportion to people income, I think we should all put our efforts into something else instead about this!

Yes I totally get what you mean.

But it would not be a sustainable way of doing things because if they went down the route of taking tax off petrol etc then all the other services would have restricted income and then they will fall into disrepair.

I can't see how they can chnage the way it is as it would be very difficult to do it.

They also are taxing high because they need to decrease the amount of vehicles on the road to decrease congestion and pollution in and aroubnd cities.

fair enough it's not so simple but at the end of the day I don't mind the petrol prices. it's not that expensive top fill up or even drive a car so why are you bothered? if you are bothered buy a more economical car like others have done rather than wining like a B**** lol only kidding just had to say that line!

btw the cost of driving a car is lower than 10 years ago in proportion to people income' date=' I think we should all put our efforts into something else instead about this![/quote']

See the bigger picture. It's not just about cars, or even roads. All goods are transported by vehicular means. The more the fuel costs the more expensive everything else becomes, (and the higher inflation becomes), the more the fuel costs in the UK, the less competitive UK haulage firms are, this affects UK jobs, noticed the increasing amount of foreigh registered HGV's? Higher costs to the economy make us as a nation less competitive in export markets, deters tourism etc. It's all not just about putting 8 gallons in your car.

Taxation has been proved not to reduce car usage by any significant means, because outside of London the public transport system is mostly pants, so that argument is way off. As I already posted, I don't propose reducing taxation in total, simply that general taxation should be exactly that, and that tax on fuel should not be used as a substitute 'cash cow'. It's unfair and totally illogical. If you're happy paying pretty much the highest fuel costs in the world then so be it, do you also give the car salesman a few extra thousand when you buy the car? There is a saying about a fool and money...You say you have a 'Business Studies Degree'? What sort, is it Bankrupt ones?

See the bigger picture. It's not just about cars' date=' or even roads. All goods are transported by vehicular means. The more the fuel costs the more expensive everything else becomes, (and the higher inflation becomes), the more the fuel costs in the UK, the less competitive UK haulage firms are, this affects UK jobs, noticed the increasing amount of foreigh registered HGV's? Higher costs to the economy make us as a nation less competitive in export markets, deters tourism etc. It's all not just about putting 8 gallons in your car.

Taxation has been proved not to reduce car usage by any significant means, because outside of London the public transport system is mostly pants, so that argument is way off. As I already posted, I don't propose reducing taxation in total, simply that general taxation should be exactly that, and that tax on fuel should not be used as a substitute 'cash cow'. It's unfair and totally illogical. If you're happy paying pretty much the highest fuel costs in the world then so be it, do you also give the car salesman a few extra thousand when you buy the car? There is a saying about a fool and money...You say you have a 'Business Studies Degree'? What sort, is it Bankrupt ones?[/quote']

yes it was an IT and business degree. I can now see your point totally now you have explained it. But I don't really think when typing on here, as I don't see it as an importnat part of my life. It's where it counts it matters!

Although I like to read others points of view. But i suppose this is what the forum is about. to give each other your views about things and then you can see others side of thing which in the end may change your own point of view. Great really!

I do see your point and I am leaning towards thinking the same as yourself.

I just hope this petrol card things comes into action quickly! don't wanna see road blocks this year or strikes within certain companies directly hit by the increase in prices. But I don't think there is an easy way out of it as we are kind of pushed into a corner at the moment.

What do you think some happen to relieve the problems and lower petrol prices? HotVRS?

What do you think some happen to relieve the problems and lower petrol prices?

Nothing will happen to reduce prices. They will continue to rise, and when the Iran war starts there will likely be rationing as well.

Sal

Nothing will happen to reduce prices. They will continue to rise' date=' and when the Iran war starts there will likely be rationing as well.

Sal[/quote']

I meant what do you think SHOULD happen?

I meant what do you think SHOULD happen?

There is nothing that anyone can do, other than to discover several huge new sources of oil to flood the market. That is most unlikely.

Sal

There is nothing that anyone can do' date=' other than to discover several huge new sources of oil to flood the market. That is most unlikely.

Sal[/quote']

if there is nothing we can do then why are we having a discussion about it?

yes I know I said discussion about topics is a good thing but about things we can't change?

Stop trying to build new gas fired power stations since we are running out of gas!!!

Nuclear is a good stop gap measure until we get hydro/wave/solar/wind etc all up and going properly. No point building more gas stations as we will be paying more for leccy the, Also less demand for gas would mean the gas could be chained to make petrol or derv etc.

Stop trying to build new gas fired power stations since we are running out of gas!!!

Nuclear is a good stop gap measure until we get hydro/wave/solar/wind etc all up and going properly. No point building more gas stations as we will be paying more for leccy the' date=' Also less demand for gas would mean the gas could be chained to make petrol or derv etc.[/quote']

Those are all sensible suggestions.

Also we could stop turning gas/oil into fertilisers to pour back into the ground. And we could discourage burning vast quantities of oil in the air by putting a proper tax on aviation fuel. But these are only tinkering with the edges of the problem. The fact is there is not enough oil left in the ground.

I'm typing this on a keyboard made from oil, looking at a screen made from oil, sitting on a chair made from oil, and wearing clothes made from oil. Large parts of my Skoda are made from oil. What happens when the oil runs out? We can't replace these materials with nuclear power.

Certain countries are trying to protect their position by exerting influence over areas of the world where oil can still be found, and have cheerfully gone to war to protect their supplies. This will only get worse as the supplies dry up.

Sorry, but there is no real answer.

- Sal

To be fair plastic can be made fom coal, it just is a bit more difficulat but they are still hydrocarbon chains. So that is not the problem.

The problem is providing power without global warming. The only sensible options I see are Nuclear and Renewable with hydrogen cars. Of course due to the requirements of elctricity to seperate the hydrogen from water we will need a lot more power than at current so will need a lot of new nuclear power stations.

I had an interesting idea.....can humas artificially create oil?

then I thought that all the energy put into producing the oil would be wasted ! DOH!