Did Skoda fit the wrong tyres on the Skoda Rapid? I'm thinking about sizing up (also 15 to 16 wheels)

[m1kemex]

Hi there,

 

I purchased a brand new 1.2 TSI Manual SEAT Toledo (basically, a Rapid clone) in 2017. It came from factory with 215/45 R16 86H Bridgestone Turanza ER300 tyres and stock SEAT/Skoda 16" (6JA601025A, 7Jx16H2 ET46) wheels.

 

I predicted since before the purchase that the ride quality would suck big time (to be fair, our streets in Mexico City leave a lot to be desired) and I was right. The wheels felt horribly stiff and transmitted every imperfection into the cabin with almost no cushion whatsoever. Needless to say, I only rode on them once (the trip from the dealer) and I took them off. I replaced them with 15 OEM steelies (6Jx15H2 ET38) with plastic caps that I got really cheap from someone who upgraded and 185/60 R15 84H Euzkadi EuroDrive 2 tyres tyres.

 

I've been riding that way ever since and now that the car has 26,000 Km (despite using it daily I don't put heavy miles on it), I've started to notice uneven wear, with the front tyres wearing much faster than the back (I'm going to measure them tomorrow). And not just regular wear: tiny chunks are missing from the tread.

 

As an immediate solution I rotated them and put the front at the back and expect them to last about 10-15K more. But I've been wondering: this never happened in my old Golf MK4 2.0; all tires (195/65R15 on steelies) wore evenly without rotation and lasted nearly 100K for a set (I only replaced the tires once and I sold it with 170,000 Km).

 

It can't be peak torque, because both the 2.0 NA and 1.2 TSI produce about 175 Nm. My theory is that the tyres were wrongly specified for the car since the beginning. For example, the new Ibiza, which is a lighter car (1,125 Kg) uses 185/65 R15 as standard, which is roughly equivalent to 195/60 R15. The Toledo (1,175 Kg) is in between the Ibiza and the Golf (1,260 Kg), yet it specifies 195/55 R15!

 

I'm planning on sizing the tyre up to the right size (185/65R15) but I'm afraid it might rub. What do you think?

 

P. S. I no longer have the stock wheels. I traded them for a set of 5.5Jx15H2 ET40 (6F0601025G) with 185/65 R15 Turanza T001 off a 2018 Ibiza. This is my primary choice, but I've also been thinking about up sizing to 16 with 195/55 R16 (I found a new set of old stock New Beetle 6.5Jx16H2ET42 5x100 wheels for cheap).

 

EDIT: Out of curiosity, I pulled the OEM spare wheel (185/60 R15 on a steelie) and weighted it. 15.4 Kg. The alloy off the Ibiza weights 15.8 Kg. But it should break even with the plastic wheel cap installed.

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 January, 2021 by m1kemex

[Carlston]

 

The VW Polo and Seat Ibiza are a later generation to the Skoda Rapid, and hence have slightly bigger outside diameter tyres.

 

185/65R15 and 195/55R16 are about the same outside diameter and are about as big as you can fit to your car. The narrower 185/65R15 is unlikely to rub. I would guess the 195/55R16 could rub if you fitted it to a 7Jx16 ET46 rim, but anything between 5.5J and 6.5J with an offset between ET35 and ET42 should be ok.

 

185/65R15 is a noticeably more comfortable size than the 195/55R16 and is also a lot cheaper.

 

185/65R15 fitted to a 5.5J rim will be more comfortable than fitting it to a 6J rim.

 

You might also want to consider 195/60R15 fitted to a 5.5Jx15 ET40 rim. 195/60R15 has a slightly smaller outside diameter than 185/65R15 so will be closer to the standard tyre sizes on your car.

 

It's normal for front wheel drive cars to wear the front tyres out twice as quickly as the rear tyres.

Volkswagen Polo 2020 1.5 TSI

– Generation: Mk6 [2017 .. 2022] 

– Market: EUDM 

– Power: 148 hp | 110 kW | 150 PS 

– Engine: I4, Petrol

– Options: Highline

– Center Bore: 57.1 mm 

– Wheel Fasteners: Lug bolts 

– Thread Size: M14 x 1.5 

– Trim Production: [2019 .. 2021]

Tire	Rim	PCD
185/70R14 88H	5Jx14 ET38	5x100
185/65R15 88T	5.5Jx15 ET40	5x100
185/60R16 86H	6Jx16 ET45	5x100
195/55R16 87H	6.5Jx16 ET47	5x100
215/45ZR17 87Y	7Jx17 ET51	5x100

 

https://www.wheel-size.com/size/volkswagen/polo/2020/

Seat Ibiza 2020 1.5 TSI

– Generation: KJ [2017 .. 2022] [EUDM] 

– Power: 148 hp | 110 kW | 150 PS 

– Engine: I4, Petrol

– Options: XCELLENCE, FR

– Center Bore: 57.1 mm 

– Wheel Fasteners: Lug bolts 

– Torque: 120 Nm

– Thread Size: M14 x 1.5 

– Trim Production: [2017 .. 2021]

Tire	Rim	PCD
185/65R15 88H	5.5Jx15 ET40	5x100
185/65R15 88V	5.5Jx15 ET40	5x100
195/55R16 91V	6.5Jx16 ET47	5x100
215/50R16 91V	7Jx16 ET51	5x100
215/45ZR17 91W	7Jx17 ET51	5x100
215/40ZR18 91W	7Jx18 ET51	5x100

 

https://www.wheel-size.com/size/seat/ibiza/2020/

Edited 13 January, 2021 by Carlston

[m1kemex]

Thank you for your reply Carlston,

 

I've spent quite a bit of time lately researching the topic of wheels and tyres and I still think what I thought when I first started the thread: that Skoda fit too small wheels on the Rapid / Toledo. Even though it shares the PQ25 platform with vehicles such as the Polo / Ibiza / Fabia, it's really a much larger and heavier car, with the TDI version in particular approaching 1,300 Kg. Why, then, the base size for this model is 175/70 R14 on it when VW decided 175/80 R14 was appropriate for the Golf IV?

 

Thing is, as long as you remain within sensible parameters, the physical size of the wheel doesn't matter than much. What matters is that the size of a tyre determines its typical load rating. So the main difference between 175/70 and 175/80 is, for practical purposes, is that one holds 500 Kg (84) each or 1,000 per axle and the other 560 Kg (88) each or 1,120 Kg per axle (and that's for the bare minimum, stripped-down version of the Golf IV sold in Europe; here the base model always used 615 Kg [91] tyres or 1,230 Kg per axle, the same the Virtus / Polo Sedan V mounts).

 

I'm not saying that Rapids/ Toledos are ticking bombs; they aren't because it's an industry-standard to impose hefty safety margins on anything than can result in a lawsuit. I'm just saying that it's more "on the edge". The easy fox for this is, of course, simply to mount an XL tyre (88 rated) in 185/60R15. The ride is going to remain nice, the fuel efficiency good and it's not like this size is lacking grip for normal driving. You remain within factory specifications for any legal purposes.

 

However, I've found so many things during my research that I'd like to report back here... I'll get back when I have more time.

 

 

[m1kemex]

Well, some facts:

 

MK4 (compatible) wheels:

 

* 5x100 15x6 ET38 Avus I (1J0 601 025 B, 1J0 601 025 AA) are pretty much the lightest OEM aluminum wheels you can fit on this (or similar) car. They are 7.3 Kg with the hubcap (I have an old and beaten set). However, they are only rated to 500 Kg.

* Most other 15x6 aluminum wheels of that generation are sightly heavier, but rated for 530/550 Kg.

* It may be a typo, but there is a model (1J0 601 025 BD) rated to 580Kg.

* Steelies (1J0 601 027) are between 9 and 10 Kg each (not sure) and rated to 550Kg.

* 16" aluminum models are 6.5" wide and about 9.5 Kg. Rated to 550 Kg. Offset is 42.

 

PQ era small car (Fabia / Ibiza / Polo and variants):

 

* 15x6 ET38 steelies (6R0601027R) for 6 clips wheel caps are about 8Kg and rated to 500 Kg.  (Alcar model 7760),

 

MQB era small car (Fabia / Ibiza / Polo and variants):

 

* 15x5.5 ET40 steelies (2C0601027A) are 6.6 Kg and rated to 515 Kg. (Alcar model 4055). This wheels are also manufactured in silver color.

* A MQB era steelie + 185/65R15 Nexen n'Blue HD Plus  + clip-on wheel cap is 14.6 Kg. (I just got a set of 4 wheels with tyres for cheap).

* 15x5.5 ET40 aluminum wheels (such as the 6F0601025N) are about 8Kg but rated to 600 Kg (!).

 

* Skoda Rapid / SEAT Toledo wheel clearance:

 

* Based on the manual you can install 13mm snow chains on 195/55R15 tyres, that's 597 + 26 = 623 mm maximum wheel diameter.

* A 185/65R15 tyre has a nominal diameter of 621.5mm. It is safe to use it.

* Confirmed with anecdotic reports from (mostly Russian) forms.
* Confirmed by a Kazakh publication which explicitly tests 185/65R15 tyres on a Skoda Spaceback.

 

[Carlston]

Audi 8L0601025D and 8L0601025E 6Jx15 ET38 5/100 57.1 alloy rims weigh about 5.5kg each. These were made in Germany from forged alloy, so are much lighter than the typical heavy sand cast alloy rims.

 

http://www.oemepc.com/audi/part_single/catalog/au/markt/RDW/modell/A3/year/2000/drive_standart/201/hg_ug/601/subcategory/601050/part_id/254951/lang/e

 

185/65R15 and 195/60R15 are both common and cheap sizes.  For comfort and looks maybe go for 195/60R15 on 5.5Jx15 ET40 5/100 57.1 Alcar 4055 steel rims. They have an attractive 18-hole design. 195/60R15 are readily available in both H and V speed ratings.

 

Edited 28 February, 2021 by Carlston

[SurreyJohn]

I am very surprised that a 2017 car came with Bridgestone ER300 tyres, I thought they had been replaced few years earlier.   Maybe they continued in some countries

 

 

[m1kemex]

On 01/03/2021 at 14:15, SurreyJohn said:

I am very surprised that a 2017 car came with Bridgestone ER300 tyres, I thought they had been replaced few years earlier.   Maybe they continued in some countries

 

 

The ER300 is still available. I saw them at Costco today with a manufacturing date of 40/20.

 

I forgot to check the country of origin.

[m1kemex]

Well, for a follow up, I installed the alloy wheels (5.5Jx15 ET40) on the car today and they don't clear the front brakes (mine is equipped with 288mm rotors).

 

Radially they are OK, but they rub axially. And I just realized that clearance is not only affected by offset, which is already 2mm higher, but also by the narrow width of the wheel, which is about 6mm lower. Since the optimal offset is 38, the wheels should have an offset of 32 to run in the same position. So I'm like 8mm off.

 

Is it a matter of adding a 8mm spacer or I'm missing something here?

 

P. S. No wonder they are different: the Ibiza V appears not to be equipped with 288mm rotors, but 276mm.

[m1kemex]

Another follow up. I was hoping to make the wheels work and even bought some 5mm spacers. Then, I realized that I'd need longer lug bolts. Then, I realized that the way the wheels are machined (conical end), if I pushed them outwards, they would no longer be in contact with the spigot and would be centered just by the bolts. I was thinking abut getting a hub-centric spacer... and that moment I realized that this was getting too silly and I decided to scrap the project altogether. I would end up with a Frankenstein setup that'd just cause me trouble (like with the insurer in case of an accident).

 

Today, early in the morning, I went to the tyre shop and for a very modest price of about 20 GBP they dismounted the 185/65R15 Turanza T001 tyres from the 5.5J wheels and remounted and balanced them into my Avus 6J MK4 wheels, with alignment on top. They did a good job but  once I took the car for a ride I immediately found the feeling of it very funny.

 

I noticed the tyres being too hard and went to my local gas station to have the pressure corrected (they have a nice, automatic machine). It was initially 44 PSI and now I'm running 32/30. It improved, but it still feels much different than before (185/60R15 on steelies). The suspension just feels way too firm. Weird, given the taller profile and lower pressure.

 

I've been using the car without issues for the rest of the day (it doesn't rub anywhere) but acceleration and braking have definitely been affected negatively. Acceleration has become quite dull and it's hard to maintain a proper engine regime, as it doesn't recover well from slowing down. Braking also feels diminished. Both issues can be explained by the larger leverage produced by the bigger tyre; I'm just surprised at how sensitive the ride quality is from such small changes.

 

Issues:

 

* My tyre's DOT says they are 4 years old (1717). They look perfectly OK but the rubber may have begun to harden.

* Ride quality, from a comfort perspective, is definitely worse with aluminum wheels (steelies flex and is an integral part of the suspension; alloys are stiff to resist fatigue).

* Handling has become stiffer. I suspect that it has something to do with the caster disposition of the wheel.

 

I'm now thinking about swapping the tyres for 195/55R15. In theory, they should be harsher, but in practice there is not so much difference because narrow tyres in wide rims(the setup I was running) prevent the sidewall from flexing, like Carlston said (we also have a Peugeot 208 here, with 195/55R16 tyres, and the ride quality is not that bad). My only concern is that the car would ride lower and be more likely to hit something.

 

P. S. Money isn't really a problem, I'm just experimenting out of curiosity.  I'll just sell the leftovers once I'm done.

Edited 4 April, 2021 by m1kemex

[Carlston]

What are the official tyre pressures for the various tyre sizes on the 2017 SEAT Toledo IV 1.2TSI 81kW ?

 

I've seen 32psi (2.2 Bar) front and 29psi (2.0 Bar) rear tyres pressure mentioned on wheel-size.com for the 185/60R15 tyre size.

 

185/60R15 has an 84 (500kg) load index, whereas 185/65R15 has an 88 (560kg) load index.

 

If the above tyre pressures are correct (presumably for a lightly loaded car with just two passengers), then you can drop the tyre pressures by 3psi (0.2 Bar), to 29psi (2.0 Bar) front and 26psi (1.8 Bar) rear.

 

You are correct in that the relatively wide 6J rims are stretching the sidewalls on the 185/65 tyres thereby making them less flexible and thereby giving a harder ride. 185/65R14 tyres have the same outside diameter as 195/55R15 tyres.

 

As you are reluctant to use 15" tyres with a larger outside diameter than standard, I would suggest using the standard 185/60R15 tyre size on relatively narrow 5Jx15 ET28 rims.  Alternatively, 195/55R15 on 5.5J rims. There's not much choice in steel 5.5J rims, but 5.5Jx15 ET34 and 5.5Jx15 ET40 rims are available in Europe. You would notice a softer ride fitting 195/55R15 tyres to narrower 5.5J rims instead of 6J rims.

 

For comfort, 185/60R15 is a better choice than the low profile stiffer carcass 195/55R15. Although 195/55R15 fitted to a 5.5J rim may be similar to a 185/60R15 fitted to a 6J rim.

 

It's disappointing that you don't have 256mm diameter front discs, as that would allow 185/65R14 tyres on relatively narrow 5Jx14 ET35 or 5Jx14 ET38 rims.

 

The Toyota Aygo uses 165/65R14 and 165/60R15 tyres on relatively narrow 4.5J rims, so 185/65R14 and 185/60R15 tyres fitted to 5J rims give a similar fit.

 

The Toyota Aygo fitment of these two 165 tyre sizes is unusual to such narrow rims as the 4.5J size. Usually these 165 tyre sizes are fitted to wider 5J rims by motor manufacturers. Toyota will have done this to prioritise comfort over handling. In doing this, Toyota have risked upsetting motoring journalists when they drive hell for leather around a race track, but for everyday UK motorists many will approve of the improved ride comfort. It's certainly the way I set my cars up.

 

Two oversize 15" tyres that you might want to consider are 175/65R15 on 5Jx15 ET28 rims, and 195/60R15 on 5.5Jx15 ET40 rims. These are both slightly less oversize than 185/65R15.

 

Edited 6 April, 2021 by Carlston

[m1kemex]

It seems like I never replied to you @Carlston

 

I was hoping to get a set of Pepperpots, but I never found any, so I ended up buying a set of new MK4 Avus 15" 6J wheels I found on sale. I fitted the stock size on them (185/60R15 Michelin Energy XM2) and went to Aliexpress for a set of generic hub caps, since the original ones have the old blue and white logo and look kind of odd. They didn't come that way, though. I had to buy the loose silver and black emblems and glue them.

 

I replaced all five wheels, including the spare (I now have a full size spare, so no 80 Km/h limitation).

 

Ride quality is fine, not great, because I'm afraid to hit some pothole and damage the rim. That's why I've been using 36 PSI on front and 34 PSI on the back. Steering is quite nice and I get very good mileage (I've seen as low as 4.xl/100 Km). Alloy wheels are definitely stronger than steelies.

 

It looks really clean to me...

 

Edited 15 February, 2023 by m1kemex