This thread occured to me, following an idle hour or so on Google, to see if there tips on refining the way the car starts from standstill - didn't get too far with that at first, but lots of other things soon emerged.  That set me thinking that noting them here might lead to further useful comments + more detailed explanations from more knowledgable contributors.  There isn't a separate DSG section in Briskoda, never mind on transmissions in general, so any Briskoda information there is on DSGs, is presumably scattered all over the place.  

 

One or two people on other forums revealed by the Googling suggested that it's beneficial to have some understanding of how DSGs work in order to get the best out of them.  That seemed very sensible, so kicking off - overall, it is basically 2 gearboxes each with there associated clutch, all combined into one casing.  One gearbox does 1st, 3rd, 5th & 7th, the other does 2nd, 4th 6th & reverse (I think I've put reverse in the write place).  I hadn't even thought about that before.  There's clearly a lot more to it but that will do for now.

 

Moving on, here's summaries of the first 2 discussion points that emerged - with associated info sources at the end.  In later messages, I could go on to introduce other aspects, should there be any interest.  I wish there was some way of involving people who designed / developed VAG DSGs to verify some of the issues, as there isn't quite the build up years of widespread knowledge as for manuals or conventional Autos.  I suspect it's no use asking Skoda UK, nor even dealers.  Maybe specialist DSG repairers are a possible source of reliable info.

 

 

A         At Traffic Lights etc. if not using Stop/Start or Autohold if lwait  likely to be more than a few seconds

 

--  Move gear lever to Neutral & apply EPB (Electronic Parking Brake) - The Solenoid isn't energized and clutches inactive.  However if at the end of the queue, use footbrake without or with EPB so anyone coming up behind sees you've stopped. (source 1)

 

--  Don't put gear lever into Park as it puts the transmission to sleep.  This + waking it up again causes wear.  The transmission is not designed to be a brake, that's what brakes are for.  Anyway, moving into Neutral is easier, just one notch instead of several. (sce 2)

 

--  If left in D, but with the footbrake in use, I think all the box does is to bleed off the drive by slipping the clutch which is obviously not a good thing for the longevity of the clutch plate. (sce 3, person said this theory needs checking).

 

--  However this last idea was contradicted in (sce 4) as the person says that the clutch is always disengaged when the brake pedal is applied with foot off throttle & he doesn't recommend going into neutral, particularly if Stop/Go is on - doesn't work in Neutral.  Well, I wouldn't anyway bother going into Neutral if Stop/Go were operating & I'm generally unure what to make of (sce 4).

 

 

B         Crawling along in stop/go traffic

 

--  Use Sport Mode to reduce the times the gearbox hunts up and down.  Or go into first manually.  (source 3)

 

 

##    Sources
        1.  https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/204672-dsg-demystified-all-you-need-know-about-vws-direct-shift-gearbox-5.html
        2.  https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ml#post2164182
        3.  https://www.yetiownersclub.co.uk/threads/tips-for-using-dsg.8229/
        4.  https://carjasoos.com/car-blog/avoid-these-things-in-dsg-transmission/

A small point but while DSG's work similarly there are differences with Wet Clutch 6 or 7 speeds and 7 speed twin dry clutch ones.

Then how you might use them with a mechanical parking brake with Hill Hold Assist / Control or without or with 'Autohold' & an e-Brake.

 

So when talking Karoq's you are thinking about cars with Stop / Start and e-Brakes but the different flavours of DSG's with engines 150ps / 250 Nm or less and those with that but Haldex,

and then those with more than 150 PS / 250Nm and FWD or AWD.

 

PS

Putting the shifter into P (Park) has the DSG out of Gear but more importantly the wheels are locked with the Pawl.

That is not 'To Sleep', that is the Front Wheels unable to move, the car can not roll.

 

 

Edited 26 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

As above, muddling info on wet clutch, dry clutch gearboxes, mechanical handbrake, EHB, Autohold no Autohold is just adding more confusion to the subject.

Quite a bit of misinformation in the 4 Sources.

Mixing up EU / European and Global VW group cars can cause this. 

 

Like the 1.0TSI's which do still come with a DQ200,

but e-Tech and DQ200's will eventually be the norm, but not with the not yet available Fabia or others models in production.

 

As to the S7 thing & a DQ200 Twin Dry Clutch DSG, 

those with a DQ200 DSG might want to see if they can get S7 displayed without having it in Cruise Control where it is not actually in S7.

 

Remember this if tempted to stop for an extended period of time with other road users behind, including if Autohold puts the brake lights on.

 

 

Edited 26 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

I have a 1 litre DSG in my Seat, and S7 does come up, but need to be cruising and doing at least 63mph.  My guess it it is programmed for over 100km/h

 

I think the gear display shows : P, R, N D1-D7, S1-S7, E1-E7, M1-M7 and up and down arrows in M mode.  I have a vague memory that also shows E when coasting in economy mode (but I haven’t used E for about 2 years, as need to manually press mode button each time, and doesn’t gain much)

 

@SurreyJohn

Could you check that please. 

I would like to know if yours can start of in S and go to S7.

It used to be that DQ200's just went D7 and when the shifter was moved to S it went to S6, some Fabia vRS used to go to S7 above 127 mph under acceleration.

But if you were going along in D7 and put on Cruise Control and moved the shifter to S it displayed S7, but the RPM was still as D7.

OK e-Root, we all know there were umpteen DSG types over time, but only a few on your list apply to Karoq & I think all are 7 speed.  I believe all UK DSG Karoqs have Stop/Start, Autohold and ESB, but I'd filtered out the first 2 features in situations A & B.  I know you like those 2 features & in your circumstances understand why, but I and some others prefer mostly not to use them.  So are you able to be more specific on how you deal with waiting at lights / junctions without using them + creeping in traffic & how this varies with the different DSG Karoqs - I suspect no difference, wet or dry clutches, but willing to be corrected.  Maybe only a VAG DSG engineer can truly answer.

 

Agreed the DSG references were generally rather old & covered a wide range of models - that is possibly a valid criticism, but unless we can be properly enlightened here, I reckon general points on DSG behaviour can be usefully infered from them and taken into account in one's driving style, particularly with situations A & B. 

 

Regarding the P position and the locking pawl, this person reckons there's more to it than you say  "However, from a more technical perspective, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread - the parking lock mechanism is engaged purely mechanically via a 'Bowden' cable between the selector lever and the parking lock lever.  And this cable is what actuates the parking lock.  In a normal/standstill scenario, the cable can exert adequate tension via the in-built holding device to prevent the car from rolling away.  However, in the case of a scenario in which there is sudden and overwhelming pressure on the parking lock/cable, the setup can go kaput and can cause serious damage to the associated gearbox element.  This is best examplified by a classical case when somebody possibly rear-ends your vehicle when the car is in 'parking' mode. say, at a traffic signal by an idiot who is totally careless and ignorant about stopping in time." A bit more on this in situation E say, later.

 

I'll have to try out S7 without cruise control in my 1.0 DG200 - I know as you say, it shows S7 when cruise is engaged and do suspect it does actually go into 7th, as on my longish M4/M25 journeys, one of my most economical runs was when I accidentally left the car in sport mode for half the motorway run - 53mpg.  I'll have to look at the rev counter on the next long run using Cruise with sport & compare with 7th in D & cruise, but I'll postpone that while there's this petrol panic.

@croquemonsieur  So the big difference is that all might be 7 speed but the Dry Clutch DQ200's on a 1.6 TDI , 1.0 or 1.5 TSI are rather different from the Wet clutch DSG. 

But all the vehicles with the DSG's do have only 2 pedals. 

Behaviours can be very different as it might behave when the DSG is fitted to a ACT engine, so that will be 1.5TSI's.

 

PS.

I have driven and owned automatics for near 50 years, only 2 pedal cars for 45 years and DSG's for the past 12 years, so i know all about using P in Auto's, CVT's and DSG's.

About parking on hills, and hand brakes and i am used to parking Autos i drive or Own and not leaving them in P or with the Parking brake on in Winter during the coldest weather, and chocking the wheels.  Some  DSGs can be in P or N to start, but must be in P to start when it is minus 10 *oC, they will not start in N.

Old habits are hard to break, unlike Pawls.

 

PPS.

Served my time as a Motor Engineer / Mechanic, even got City & Guilds.

 

This is from the 2017 Manual, there is a later one.

 

Edited 26 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Yes wet clutch DSGs are different and better in many ways, longer lasting and due to there being more fluid, they are more temperature stable, particularly the clutches.  However I still don't seen anything so far, to change my view that proceedures I noted in situations A & B are likely to be good advice for all DSGs.  In manual cars, staying in gear with clutch depressed when stopped causes wear on the thrust bearing (and maybe wear in the driver's left leg joints).  However, I'm no wiser to how the DSGs work when stopped, footbrake on & no throttle, whether there is actually any benefit (or maybe harm!!) in going from D to N - I suspect there is benefit, so unless I discover otherwise later, I'll continue to go into N.

 

Regarding situation B, driving in slow moving stop/start traffic, I've read here & heard one or 2 people with Ford DSGs comment, that they worry about creeping forward in traffic causing excessive wear in DSG, so surely it's best to try minimise the effects.  I've been avoiding manual mode altogether up to now, so in traffic I'll begin to try to assess if going into Sport reduces the amount of gear changing, but maybe I should try using manual mode - a case of  teaching old monkeys, new tricks......  Best of all, being retired, I've the luxury of choosing times that reduce the incidence of being in such circumstances.  Meanwhile, maybe I should have added the following comment in situation B, from Source 1 (Josh Machine).

 

--  If possible, it is better to drive at a speed greater than the vehicle default D1 gear idle speed (typically more than 10 km/h), so as to reduce the tension on the DSG gear selector forks.

 

@croquemonsieur

Which engine does your Karoq have and what age?

     Some DQ200 are fine at crawling speed out of 1st into 2nd and back down at about 6mph and others are sometimes best in S to hold 1st to a higher RPM, some drivers just chose D and there it stays and they have no problems or comments on how a 1.0 or 1.5 TSI behaves.      Ford had faulty Twinclutch boxes and Autos, just as VW group have had.  Ford had to fess up eventually. I had Durashifts that they never apologised about denying issues with but they had been scrapping vehicles like Transits with Durashift while my one had slipped out of the dealership network, it was a demonstrator that should have never got out to the public as the first built were scrapped. 

Thankfully it just comes naturally to many drivers who just get in and drive the car according to the engine/ output and DSG the car has.

Engine sizes and power makes a big difference to crawling along etc when it can be a 1.0, 1.5 TSI, or 1.6TSI, or the 2.0 TSI's / TDI.s single or twin turbos.

 

More about Wet Clutch.

There are Dry Clutch DSG vids as well.     Wet Clutch DSG's has the 1 oil for Box and MCU.   Requires Servicing.

The Twin dry clutch DSG has 2 oils, in the box and for the MCU (Mechatronic Control Unit.) No Service / OIl change intervals or guidelines from VW.

 

Most could not care about moding / software updates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Ah, that first paragraph gets to the point, mines a 1.0TSI SE Tech MY19 registered registered end of July 2019 & now done only 13,000mls thanks to Covid.  I could let the car just get on with it in D, without further questioning and indeed there's no problem with mine, it's fine at crawling speed, but does change from 1st to 2nd very smoothly at the earliest opportunity & I then wonder if the clutch might be slipping again in 2nd.  I want to keep the car a long time, particularly as now they're talking about automatic speed limiters for all new cars in the near future, so I just like to gradually like to refine my driving skills to suit how the car operates, hopefully minimising wear.  Sadly, I didn't take out the extra 2 year warranty before registration, as I didn't realise the full implications when buying the car.

 

That 1st video, if not relevent to the topic, was interesting even though they didn't mention the cooking, dry clutch DQ200 & ditto the last one on DSG resets - useful to know.

 

Dare I now move on to situation C & it's corresponding link, Source 5     https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/843793-DSG-Moving-From-a-Dead-Stop-(it-s-awful)

 

C             Moving from Stationary

 

This is the DSG downside that many reviews refer to.  I think that's good advice, consciously let the clutch engage before pressing go.  It involves a little more anticipation, particularly at T junctions turning right into a busy main road.  I have had the car jerk and spin the wheels if pressing the throttle too early & eagerly in the past.  So after reading this I've recently tried once or twice being in Sport and letting the clutch grab before touching the throttle when hoping want to make a quick getaway and it does seem to happen fairly smoothly.  Before, I found using sport even more jerky than in D.  The rather sensitive top of the pedal throttle setting in the Karoq & in my previous Yeti doesn't help for easy smooth starts.  An earlier 2.0 Saab Auto was so much more relaxing on fast getaways, but I prefer the Karoq overall.

 

I'll leave off introducing a topic on 'WTF moments', but here's the link anyway for info and then I'll run.    https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/how-to-play-the-dsg-game-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/

 

@croquemonsieurYeti 1.2 TSI /DSGS would spin wheels as well, revvy peppy engine short 1st gear and rubbish tyres.

Heavy vehicle and pretty light engine / gearbox, just like a Karoq 1.0TSI.

 

?

You never drive with 2 feet do you.

Left foot on brake and right on accelerator at junctions.

(The clutch taking up delay is not as bad on some when the hill hold assist / control is operating.

when Sprinting / Drag racing that is why a DQ200 held on the line with the Manual Hand brake is better than on the foot brake.)

 

DQ200 DSG's have been in 1.0 TSI's for long enough now and pre GPF's being fitted.

Any reports of issues are tiny really.

 

If the DQ200 is going to have a long life then in a 1.0TSI or e-tech 1.0TSI is where i would trust my money in a bet. 

Just buy a Skoda / VW Group Extended Warranty that covers the DSG after the Manufacturers Warranty expires. 

Read carefully the T&C's. 

 

Never allow anyone untrained to touch the DQ200, and do not listen to any Skoda Employees about servicing unless they show you the TPI and the Piece of Mind Guarantee from VW as to why they want to do anything to your car.

 

PS

Forget crap written about 2009-2012 DQ200 before the World Wide Recall in 2012/13, Service Campaign in Europe 2014, because Europe is not in the World according to VW. '34F7'. Service Campaign.

Then there is '34H5' started 2017 on 2013-2015 cars.  Then the TPI's on ones 2014-2016, then again after. 

Then another Recall in Australia 2019 on 2009-2016 DQ200.s.

 

Surely Skoda can produce for them and VW Group vehicles around 2,200 or more a day DQ200's and have finally got it as good as it is ever going to be!

Edited 27 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

That reset trick only resets the "learning" but not a complete reset/resync of the dsg. With vcds/obd11 yo u can re-arrange the dsg (needs specific temps range to do it and needs a system check before doing the actual resync). Works very good after few years to get it smooth again.

On 26/09/2021 at 14:45, croquemonsieur said:

The transmission is not designed to be a brake, that's what brakes are for. 

I'm not too sure about that one.  The DSG is very (overly) happy to drop down a gear or two when braking (even gently) and going downhill. As this is "by design" from the engineers and is doing "engine braking" in the programing you would hope/expect it not be a bad/detremental thing for the DSG gearbox?  I often find myself having to manually shift back to M7 when I tapped the brake to increase my distance from the car in front and going downhill due to this engine braking that kicks in. it does this even if the revs are still perfectly high enough to support D7 (if say on the flat).  I often end up taping it back to M7 (if safe to do so) and within a short time it just goes back to D7.  I know you can also get it to go back to D7 by accelerating a bit but when going downhill this is not alays desirable or necessary (if you are maintainining your speed in D7). The DSG dropping gears means that the car can slow (often too much) and you end up wasting fuel accelerating back to your desired speed. If it left well alone (unless you were braking quite a bit more sharply) it would have been more economical. 

 

My DQ200 is not a happy bunny (bit of a Kangaroo) over rough driveways in D at around 5-7mph. If you know what to expect then you can feather the accelerator and smooth it out to a degree.  I tried ECO mode and it did not help so I will try S mode with interest and see if it smooths it out a bit more.  Other than that (and the annoying engine braking downhill) it is pretty good.

 

🙂

 

Edited 28 September, 20214 yr by smipx

Regarding the engine braking, I think the source I referred to may have been thinking of using P as a handbrake when parked.  Actually, in the past, i have done this and left the handbrake off, if I anticipate it's going to be a cold night and I think the brake could freeze on solid, but not had to in the Karoq so far, as here in sunny SE it's not been cold enough in the last 2 years.  I suppose the only other way would be to chock the wheels.

 

Interesting what you say, smipx, about the engine changing down into a lower gear on downhills in your 1.5.  My 1.0 Karoq is the first automatic I've had that seems to want to stay IN high gear almost to excess (but not quite), even going downhill - well I haven't been aware of it changing down much anyway.  I'd assumed it was partly programmed like this, so that as much energy on the overun as possible, would go into charging the battery.  All previous autos' going back maybe 35 years to a Peugeot 505, thro' BMW E39 5 series, Saab 9-5 and actually very noticeably & almost annoyingly so in my last Yeti have always changed down well before I would do in a manual car.

 

On other matters, going back maybe 5 messages to your first video, e-Root, in that set of three, the American Engineer clearly had a lot of respect for those performance wet clutch DSGs, but noted one drawback - they are heavy.  I assume that the DQ200 dry clutch model, as well as being designed to be cheaper to make for lower status smaller cars, is also substantially lighter, again referring to one your messages first paragraph (3 messages back) about the light front end of the Yeti 1200 DSG (like my last car).

 

 

2 hours ago, croquemonsieur said:

My 1.0 Karoq is the first automatic I've had that seems to want to stay IN high gear almost to excess (but not quite), even going downhill - well I haven't been aware of it changing down much anyway. 

That is the polar opposite to mine.  I wonder if that is a difference between the 1.0 DSG mapping and the 1.5 DSG mapping.  Mine is also 2019 so the harvesting algorithms may well be different I suppose.  Who knows 🙂

 

cheers,

Paul

 

The big difference is software of the DQ200 DSG in the 1.0 & 1.5 TSI.

 

Then Skoda / VW / Audi / SEAT had no issue getting WLTP Certification with 1.0 TSI with a GPF in which ever PS they gave them.

Not all brands gave then the same max power.

 

The 1.5 TSI ACT 150ps was a whole different matter,

they struggles to manipulate them for testing and had to try try and try again to get the low emissions and not cause issues with real world driving. 

So you have driving modes, coasting or not, Active Cylinder Technology and changes as they messed about and dealt with early and not so early issues of the Joey in a pouch type.

Edited 28 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

VW

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/497138-vw-group-to-phase-out-manual-gearboxes

,

 

@croquemonsieur

Re DSG 7 speed twin dry clutch weight vs Manual box.   

 (Not forgetting that a 3 cylinder 1.0 TSI is not the weight of a 4 cylinder 1.2 TSI or a 1.4 or 1.5TSI)

 

VW liked to make a big deal with a sporty car with a DQ200 that the manual box was lighter,  journalist were slow to question then why, 

The 2014/15 VW Polo GTI 1.8 TSI 192 PS DSG with just 250Nm was as quick as the 6 speed manual with 320Nm.

 

Heavier car with less Nm and if the gearbox was heavier then side by side with a manual the car was supposed to be faster.

VW are not great of honesty they like number engineering.

The DSG was a fraction quicker than the manual.

 

So that is the Dry clutch.  I can lead you to the comparisons.

 

I will put this Wet Clutch one here, heavier car with 6 Speed DSG doing rather well, but then 2 pedal cars can have anyone being a good driver, or a bad one.

 

 

 

Below,

He got a different result from i did and i was testing 2 with V-Boxes, but then i know the DSG need not run back on hills as it has Hill Hold Assist.

We had them on 99 ron min.   And adjusted the tyre pressures.

The XDS can be switched off, and when overheating disables anyway.

The Stability control stays on, that is front and rear, you can disable it, but that requires plugging in to do that.

(I was not driving the manual as i only have one foot, my pal was thrashing it and he owned it, the DSG one was borrowed, Demonstrator, never raced or rallied..

 

So his use of terms are lost in translation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

On 26/09/2021 at 18:59, e-Roottoot said:

@SurreyJohn

Could you check that please. 

I would like to know if yours can start of in S and go to S7.

It used to be that DQ200's just went D7 and when the shifter was moved to S it went to S6, some Fabia vRS used to go to S7 above 127 mph under acceleration.

But if you were going along in D7 and put on Cruise Control and moved the shifter to S it displayed S7, but the RPM was still as D7.

Our SEL 1.0 DSG drops into S7 anything between 50 & 70 depending on how hard I'm asking it to work............

That's strange smipx & thanks for the reply in the other thread about Autohold.  Driving along some country lanes with quite a lot of ups & downs this morning, after a while I remembered about your DSG changing down issue and again I wasn't aware of this happening in my 1.0 DSG MY19, though I wasn't watching the gear indication on the instrument panel - however, there were no sustained downhill stretches.

 

There is a reasonably long enjoyable bit of downhill near me though, dropping down from Epping forest to Junction 26 on the M25.  It's a nice smooth-tarmac narrowish road (well it was smooth) with some bends at the top and bottom and I normally coast down trying to avoid using the brakes.  A 3-series say, might be on my tail at the top, but by the time I get to the bottom, as often as not, he/she's usally some distance back - makes makes me feel really smug.  I haven't used this route for a few months as roadworks with traffic lights means there's always rather long hold ups at the moment & I'm taking a country lane through the forest instead.  However, I can't recall the Karoq ever changing down along that stretch, whereas the last Yeti & other previous cars always did quite audibly, at the same time putting a bit of a jolt through the car.  When the roadworks eventually finish (what on earth are they doing over such a long period, I don't know) I'll resume taking that road & try to remember to report back on what the Karoq does, keeping an eye on the gear indicator too.

Hi,  It only drops down if you brake a bit.  😀  If you are behind another car and need to slow , say 5mph.  That was my gripe. If you don't brake it doesn't drop down unless its a very steep hill and it can see you are speeding up a lot. 

^^^ & you have Cylinder Deactivation and Coasting Available. 

I began to try braking on a downhill this morning.  Looking at the engaged gear indication near the speedo, applying brakes didn't cause the gearbox to change down, well not straight away at least.  Once the car had slowed a certain amount, it did start to change down, seemingly more or less appropriate to the reducing road speed.  However that process was totally silent and jerk free + there was no sensation of engine braking once it did this.  This is in sharp contrast to the 1200 Yeti where you would hear and feel the change and subsequent slow down and from what I recall from 2+ years ago, it tended to start to change down on the overrun, before even touching the brakes.  Will continue to monitor behaviour going downhill.

 

Someone commented some months (or was it years) ago that there's not much stiction in the 1.0 3 cyl engine, so you get very little engine braking anyway, but I'd have thought untill now the newer 1.5 would have been similar.  My car certainly feels very different from the previous Yeti when on the overrun.

 

I'm beginning to try out Autohold too, without stop/start & yes it's fairly easy to achieve smooth starts and I can give the right foot a rest whilst waiting.  Also it looks like it could make pulling out at road junctions into traffic, more relaxing, so could well become a regular driving habit.  I wonder if it minimises clutch slip (& wear) in the process - quite possibly as it's presumably controlled by software that would aim to optimise this.  However, I like being able to creep when parking in tight spaces, but it's so easy to switch autohold off then, as the button is conveniently located next to the driver, unlike for stop/start - at least that's in RHD Karoqs.  Whether I use Autohold in slow moving traffic, I'll think on & experiment, maybe in conjunction with Sport.

 

 

Autohold can be switched on but it need not be actuated, that depends on how hard you press the brake pedal, you can crawl along in D or S and then touch the brake just lightly to stop and not have Autohold then activeted.

 

How much engine braking is available even with a 3 cylinder 1.0 TSI / DSG is easily felt.  Just drop a gear or 2 when on a descent. 

Ah, even better, re autohold.

 

On said downhill, the engine dropped from 6th to 5th and then to 4th.  I don't think when gear changing is controlled by the software, rather than by humans, it would drop 2 gears in one go, only does one gear at a time.  Wouldn't jumping 2 gears go against the point of having the 2 gearboxes in the one principal of DSGs.  My understanding - when in one gear, the other gearbox is on standby, raring to take up the drive at any moment, should the software decide to change up or down one notch.  Jumping 2 gears would introduce delay and likely jerk the car, while the clutch and that same gearbox already in use, sorts things out.  Hopefully that description isn't put too clumsily.