Clutch not returning, stuck in gear?!

[blackspaven]

Hi, as it says, today my estate has occasionally begun messing about... The clutch is staying down or returning no more than a quarter, but opposite to what you would expect, its sticking in gear and will not disengage the gear until you get your foot under the pedal and pull it back up, then the clutch/gears works like normal again when you depress it to release the gear. Any ideas?!

 

As an example, reversing onto my drive, you depress the clutch to normally disengage as you roll backwards towards the garage door, nothing changes, so as you go to brake to stop, it's still holding in gear and you end up stalling cos the brake is fighting the car in gear. Horrible! 

[blackspaven]

It's a bzb 1.8l l&k for clarity. 

[Guest]

Check for brake/clutch fluid leaks on the underside of the clutch housing, you may have a worn slave cylinder seal or you might just have 14 year old fluid that's gash and needs bled with new fluid.  I would recommend a pressure bleeder rather than old skool manual bleeding as the results can be hit or miss.

 

A 15 minute job at a garage.

[J.R.]

6 speed gearbox with concentric slave cylinder?

 

If so then disregard the above advice.

[blackspaven]

****e with gearboxes so I'm lost. Understand the words though. 😄

[blackspaven]

Small clear oil patches on the drive this morning. Which cylinder are we thinking most likely? 

[Schtum]

1 hour ago, blackspaven said:

Small clear oil patches on the drive this morning. Which cylinder are we thinking most likely? 

 

Slave, I'm afraid. 

[blackspaven]

Any thoughts how much that runs at repairing nowadays? If it's not standard alongside doing the slave, I'll get the clutch changed at the same time... Its done 128k on the original so probably won't last much longer. 

Edited 20 April, 2022 by blackspaven

[blackspaven]

For those who get summat similar, turns out it was a split in a rubber pipe that runs from the master cylinder, behind the bulkhead, and into a valve on the gearbox. Not as much as a slave, but still I bit of a pig of a job down to where it running being awkward. 

[MackyVRS]

Hi,

 

I'm here after searching int he forum as this issues happened me today. The clutch got stuck depressed as I left my housing estate. I toed it back out and pumped a few times and seemed ok but obviously a bit worried now. Heading on a long drive tomorrow. My mate who is big into cars immediately said slave cylinder!

 

I'll have to bring it to the garage and get checked.

 

2017 Octavia VRS estate Manual 

[J.R.]

Nothing really to check if its the internal concentric slave cylinder, and I will bet my house it is.

 

The problem will reoccur more and more frequently, pulling the pedal up whilst there is not a lot else you can do actually makes it worse because it will draw more air in through the O ring seal between the two plastic parts which is causing the problem.

 

Bleeding the clutch will improve matters for a short while, just a simple gravity bleed, no tools needed, just turn the knurled plastic bleed knob 180° anti-clockwise and watch the bubbles come up the tube, you wont even lose any measurable amount of fluid so topping up is only for peace of mind.

[blackspaven]

Yeah, mine wasn't the pipe after all... Got a call saying it was the master cylinder in the end. Just concerned I may have been hiked on the price for the removal and fix but will wait to see. 😕

[MackyVRS]

22 hours ago, J.R. said:

Nothing really to check if its the internal concentric slave cylinder, and I will bet my house it is.

 

The problem will reoccur more and more frequently, pulling the pedal up whilst there is not a lot else you can do actually makes it worse because it will draw more air in through the O ring seal between the two plastic parts which is causing the problem.

 

Bleeding the clutch will improve matters for a short while, just a simple gravity bleed, no tools needed, just turn the knurled plastic bleed knob 180° anti-clockwise and watch the bubbles come up the tube, you wont even lose any measurable amount of fluid so topping up is only for peace of mind.

Thanks, and where would one bleed the clutch? I am not a great mechanic. After 500km round trip today, clutch was fine so not really sure if we are at critical levels yet but the other day could easily been a warning sign.

[MackyVRS]

13 hours ago, blackspaven said:

Yeah, mine wasn't the pipe after all... Got a call saying it was the master cylinder in the end. Just concerned I may have been hiked on the price for the removal and fix but will wait to see. 😕

Damn, full master cylinder, what sort of price are you talking at with labour?

[59p]

Experiencing something similar to this on my mk3 VRS, clutch pedal is fine when pressing and engaging the gear but fails to come all the way up, usually returning a third of the way up! Not taken in to have it checked but what is it likely to be? If its one of the cylinders, how much in labour should I expect to pay? 

[blackspaven]

2 hours ago, MackyVRS said:

Damn, full master cylinder, what sort of price are you talking at with labour?

Skoda pricing is about 450 broken into 150 parts and 2.2 hours labour which is 300 notes. Think the garage I took it to (under recommendation since I moved to the area, but they do have outstanding reviews everywhere) might well be hitting me for the same amount but have to wait until Monday to see if that's correct... Seems a little odd that it would be the same as a dealer, unless there was summat else as well.

Skoda labour is 138 per hour... Wouldn't have thought the garage I took it too would be that much, but we will see. 

If they are charging the same as the dealer, its possibly the first and last time I'm going there! 

[J.R.]

On 23/04/2022 at 09:11, blackspaven said:

Yeah, mine wasn't the pipe after all... Got a call saying it was the master cylinder in the end. Just concerned I may have been hiked on the price for the removal and fix but will wait to see. 😕

It didn't sound plausible, did they charge you for replacing the pipe?

 

The master cylinder replacement wont eradicate the problem, because they will have bled the system it will behave for a while before returning with a vengeance.

 

Removal and replacement of the master cylinder in an equipped main dealer workshop should not be anything like 2 hours labour but that will indeed be the book figure, that is how they make their money plus charging £140 for a plastic cylinder that I got for €18 = £15 including delivery.

 

First time round took me a while but I did not have the benefit of experience, the Skoda service instructions or a coleague as mentor. Unclip switch connector (tricky but seconds once you have the knack) unclip and plug fluid reservoir pipe, release clip and disengage brake line (tricky again but seconds when you have the knack, rotate cylinder 45° anti-clockwise (bayonet fixing) and withdraw, job is 50% done, reverse procedure to fit new cylinder and bleed system, another 5 minutes tops.

 

Because of access problems caused by the DPF on my car I remove the pedal and cylinder assembly from inside the footwell, 3 M8 bolts, adds another 5 minutes to remove and 5 minutes to replace.

[blackspaven]

Yup, but that's easy if you are able to do it... I would only have half the tools and would never trust my abilities to bleed the system! 

 

They said they actually found a tiny split in the master. 🤷‍♂️

 

One thing I don't understand... If the slave cylinder is inside the gearbox, if it goes, how does that create oil leaks on the drive when the gearbox is effectively a metal box? Don't get why the gearbox oil would leak out by the same token. 

Edited 24 April, 2022 by blackspaven

[MackyVRS]

7 hours ago, blackspaven said:

Yup, but that's easy if you are able to do it... I would only have half the tools and would never trust my abilities to bleed the system! 

 

They said they actually found a tiny split in the master. 🤷‍♂️

 

One thing I don't understand... If the slave cylinder is inside the gearbox, if it goes, how does that create oil leaks on the drive when the gearbox is effectively a metal box? Don't get why the gearbox oil would leak out by the same token. 

I'd be the same man, wouldn't attempt it eve though I've watched a step by step on Youtube.

I am lucky as I only bought the car in February and I have a guarantee so I'll be making use of it!

[J.R.]

9 hours ago, blackspaven said:

Yup, but that's easy if you are able to do it... I would only have half the tools

 

That would be half of zero tools then unless you have to remove it from the inside in which case a 13mm socket, wrench and extension, you could even do it at a pinch with a single ring spanner.

 

You dont even need a tool to bleed the clutch, you turn the knurled plastic bleed valve by hand let gravity do its job and watch the bubbles rise.

 

9 hours ago, blackspaven said:

They said they actually found a tiny split in the master. 🤷‍♂️

 

They are BS'ing.

 

Edited 24 April, 2022 by J.R.

[blackspaven]

Ah well, we'll see what happens I guess, nothing more I can do at this stage. 

Anyway, phoned them to break down the price for me and they had accidentally added the labour for both the master cylinder change AND the pipe behind the bulkhead which ultimately didn't need doing, so it pretty much cut the bill in half. 😊 Much more in line with what I thought it should be so happy days 

[MackyVRS]

I have a service booked in for May 11th under Guarantee. The clutch sticking hasn't happened since that first time so I dunno, bit strange. It definitely didn't get caught on the car mat or anything, clutch well away from it. 

[J.R.]

It is very simple and not rocket science.

 

The clutch pedal does not have a return spring contrary to common belief, it has a very heavy control loading spring acting on a cam which will adds force to the pedal on the lower 1/3rd of the stroke pulling it to the floor and a counterforce on the upper 1/3rd lifting it to the top end stop position, the middle part of the travel is a dwell point on the lobe of the cam.

 

The master cylinder contrary to popular belief is a simple displacement piston and has no return spring or secondary valves.

 

When you engage the clutch (bring your foot up) the only thing that brings the pedal up through the first half (and a bit) of its travel is the force of the clutch diaphragm operating through the release bearing creating a hydraulic pressure acting on the master cylinder piston, if there is even a very small amount of air in the system the clutch pedal will stick in the mid position because the force has to compress the control loading spring.

 

A tuned in driver will have noticed that the force they exerted to disengage the clutch was less than usual, that is to say that it felt spongy.

[MackyVRS]

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

It is very simple and not rocket science.

 

The clutch pedal does not have a return spring contrary to common belief, it has a very heavy control loading spring acting on a cam which will adds force to the pedal on the lower 1/3rd of the stroke pulling it to the floor and a counterforce on the upper 1/3rd lifting it to the top end stop position, the middle part of the travel is a dwell point on the lobe of the cam.

 

The master cylinder contrary to popular belief is a simple displacement piston and has no return spring or secondary valves.

 

When you engage the clutch (bring your foot up) the only thing that brings the pedal up through the first half (and a bit) of its travel is the force of the clutch diaphragm operating through the release bearing creating a hydraulic pressure acting on the master cylinder piston, if there is even a very small amount of air in the system the clutch pedal will stick in the mid position because the force has to compress the control loading spring.

 

A tuned in driver will have noticed that the force they exerted to disengage the clutch was less than usual, that is to say that it felt spongy.

Fair play mate, that is a solid explanation. I would not have a had a clue tbh that was how it all worked so great to get the knowledge. Much appreciated.

[J.R.]

What catches people out, myself included, is that its such a simple system compared to any previous vehicle that they make the wrong assumptions.

 

There are some complicated bits like the peak torque limiter AKA clutch bleed block which limits the speed at which the clutch can be engaged but the basic system is dead simple albeit designed with precision.