Is Diesel Dead

['daiking']

Lots to discuss here and in no particular order, Diesel isn't necessarily better for the environemnt, emissions aren't restricted to C02, hence Euro compliance

I think the case for diesel still wins if you want to use turbo performance (cheaply) or you need a big car. If you want the cheapest way to get 60+mpg then the Aygo/c1/107 seems to be the way to go. May not be suitable for everyone - size or 25k miles+ in a dinky toy.

As I understood, for years, old school diesels needed servicing more often that eqiv. petrols, how come they're now on same as petrol an long life regimes? Has the oil improved that much?

Personally I think the threat to diesel exists from other areas:

Application of new technology with quality reduced to a price - see common rail - expensive unknown fault.

Emissions limits - Euro 4 has introduced the DPF to the market with "interesting" results. What needs to be done to meet the next step?

Biofuel in diesel - Its already a small percentage of all diesel, will the percentage increase in the future? How will this affect diesel engines? How will the price be affected cost increase in this component? (imho, foodstuffs will be the next thing to go through the roof after oil)

Last but not least and one for the future, I think you VAG boys have been spoiled for years by having fast feeling, reliable, frugal diesel engines. Will that continue with the new CR engines? Also, how popular will 2.0PDs be when they slip down the food chain in the second hand market when those turbo start failing out of warranty? If this happens, it won't be long before the public steer clear of anything with a turbo.

I'm amazed by the popularity of 1.6 petrols comment, I hope its true! Driven gently they'll do 40mpg but if you want to enjoy your driving, much less. Saying that I bought mine on the basis of it lasting a long time (not necessarily mileage) without major problems.

[Johnnyc]

Do you think its the technology that companies have put in to make diesels more appealing because of the PD and CR technology that goes into these new engines to make the money back from all the research and testing that goes into them, also the different metals and robustness thats needed?

as of course diesels were never that appealing until the turbos were introduced etc?

I think you picked me up wrong. I fully appreciate why diesel cars come at a premium over their petrol counterparts. The manufacturers need to pay for all that R&D that has and continues to improve diesel engines all the time.

Who would have thought you could get 177 bhp, 0-60 in 8.2 secs and a combined mpg of 57 from 'any' car a few years ago letalone a 2 litre diesel but BMW have done it.

I was actually refering to fuel. Maybe i'm being niave but all fuel comes from crude oil and differs only in the extent of refinement and additives that goes into the final product. As diesel fuel is less refined, isn't it actually 'cheaper' to produce?

[horkin]

We all just need to keep an eye on the costings. At the moment it is just about worth while owning a diesel over a petrol for the reasons many have stated. This is not a 'Diesel v Petrol' argument as some have wanted to call it, that's for the individual. Its all about PRICE. Much as we love our diesels if the price continues to rise (above that of petrol) it will become more sensible to run a petrol car and some of us less well off folks may find ourselves having to go that way!! Ah well!

[moley]

It all depends on what you need a car for. I need an estate for work & drive about 30k a year, so I drive a 1.9 tdi Octy2 (average MPG=54). The diesel is still a better option than any of the petrol versions & has lower emmisions. My wife however drives about 7k a year so it's a petrol Fabia 1.4 mpi (average MPG=39) for her & the road tax is higher.

The reason diesel prices have climbed above petrol is probably down to supply and demand, there are more diesel cars being sold so the oil companies and the goverment can hike the price & taxation on diesel. most of europe still charges less for diesel than petrol. If large numbers of owners converted to LPG the goverment would probably up the tax on LPG. whatever you drive the oil companies & the goverment will make a profit from you.

[horkin]

I'm sure you're right in that respect Morley, Whatever fuel we decide to use, as soon as the demand is high enough the price will soar. Remember the "free" North sea gas we were all going to have when it was discovered??

[Johnwg]

Petrol, Diesel... 30mpg, 50mpg... whatever you have, to run a decent car these days is an expensive business

[Lady Elanore]

Petrol, Diesel... 30mpg, 50mpg... whatever you have, to run a decent car these days is an expensive business

Perfect summation:thumbup:

[Babs]

It's all choice really...

I don't (now) do enough miles to justify diesel, and I prefer the way a petrol drives, and for those that don't know I did run a Fabia vRS for 9 months so I've done both sides

[horkin]

It's all choice really...

I don't (now) do enough miles to justify diesel, and I prefer the way a petrol drives, and for those that don't know I did run a Fabia vRS for 9 months so I've done both sides

Hi Babs,

My last 3 cars have been diesel but I must admit I am not yet convinced. My Fabia 1.9TDI PD 100 is a great car but there is so much to be said for petrol also. When I started this thread my objective was to stimulate a conversation on the high price of diesel and its effect.

Many seem to have taken the stance that it is an argument about which is best and that is not what I intended as that argument has no solution.

There is a case for thinking that if diesel continues to rise as it is, we may see a time when petrol is the more sensible option. I'm glad you enjoy your petrol car and agree they can be so nice to drive. Certainly in the case of the PD engine petrol is much quieter.

[national]

Do you think its the technology that companies have put in to make diesels more appealing because of the PD and CR technology that goes into these new engines to make the money back from all the research and testing that goes into them, also the different metals and robustness thats needed?

as of course diesels were never that appealing until the turbos were introduced etc?

No it can not be that, as the only ones to benefit of the higher prices of fuel is the Guberment and the oil companies

The manufacturers of the vehicles get nowt from fuel

Along with greed and the need to pay tanker drivers 41k py wages

Diesel is not as refined as petrol and thus cheaper to produce, basically we diesel users are been ripped off by the oil refineries

Just now the Guberment could reduce fuel duty to zero and still make 5Billion pounds extra per year from the VAT alone at the current price of oil per barrel

Or you could just shrug your sholders and be a tanker driver on 41kpy you could afford diesel, so long as you can drive an HGV

Specialist training is needed though, you Light a short fuse on a one gallon petrol container, and then RLF (Run like F ) those that make it are made for life

OH oh one problem unless your dad, uncle or first cousin is a tanker driver then I am afraid you will not pass the strict entry exam of been able to mark an X where the signature goes on the Application ( I was going to say neopitism neoop but I could not spell it)

National

[Gyp]

I'm wondering if we'll start to see more "economy" rather than "performance" diesels.

My first two diesels were Citroen AX 1.4s, and it was a struggle to get less than 60mpg from them, and much higher was available if I didn't insist on driving with my foot buried in the lino.

It seems that there's been a strong push to make diesels perform on a par to petrol cars, so people don't feel they are buying tractors, but the down side is that diesel consumption is getting worse.

I would have thought that variable-vane turbos, multi-stage pumps and common rail technologies could/should lead to significant economy gains rather than simply making the car easier to justify to your mates

[Gyp]

It's all choice really...

I don't (now) do enough miles to justify diesel, and I prefer the way a petrol drives, and for those that don't know I did run a Fabia vRS for 9 months so I've done both sides

Without wanting to get all Economist on your ***, the lower *marginal* cost per mile makes it easier to use the car you've bought rather than leave it one the drive and take the bus...

[yegnold]

This might have been because I am used to driving a diesel car and consequently had no idea of how to drive a petrol car economically, but here's something for you.

Last year I had a Mitsubishi Colt 1.2 petrol version (courtesy car, never would I spend a penny on such a pathetic and bad car), which was considerably slower (and smaller/lighter!) than my current VRS. The best MPG I got from that using the brim to brim method was 34mpg. I can absolutely thrash the VRS and get 40! Driving the VRS normally, I get around 52, and having driven it carefully over the last couple of weeks just to see what I can get, I have averaged a indicated 64mpg, and an actual 61mpg.

I'll be sticking with the performance/economy mix, thanks...

[HotVRs]

The direct MPG difference isn't the only factor. To regain a cost advantage of running a diesel you have to complete a fair few miles and keep the car a long time (unless you got a good deal on purchase maybe). Problem is, that after a fair few miles a lot of TDI's end up needing a new turbo, the cost of which cancels out most, if not all, of the savings gained with MPG over a normally aspirated petrol.

In favour of the diesel though, it will have the same size fuel tank as the petrol equivalent so you so the extra range means you spend less time queing at fuel stations whilst idiots park at a pump when only buying a loaf of bread. Also, as someone who had a car catch fire once, diesel is way less likely to combust after a serious accident, when you may be trapped in your car.

[Dr Zoidberg]

I'm wondering if we'll start to see more "economy" rather than "performance" diesels.

My first two diesels were Citroen AX 1.4s, and it was a struggle to get less than 60mpg from them, and much higher was available if I didn't insist on driving with my foot buried in the lino.

It seems that there's been a strong push to make diesels perform on a par to petrol cars, so people don't feel they are buying tractors, but the down side is that diesel consumption is getting worse.

I would have thought that variable-vane turbos, multi-stage pumps and common rail technologies could/should lead to significant economy gains rather than simply making the car easier to justify to your mates

Absolutely.

Fiat have replaced the 1.9 120bhp tdi with a 1.6 of the same output but far greater economy , and also a 105bhp version that's even better. It's got taller gearing and a few minor tweaks but still does a very respectable 11.1s 0-60

The old 1.9 claimed a smidge over 50mpg combined (same as the 150bhp) but the 1.6 120 now does 57.6 and the 105 does 62.8 combined which is excellent for a car of that size.

That's 48.7 round town and 75.3 ex-urban.

I have no doubt that if you drive sensibly that you'll be able to get this sort of figure.

Now apply the same sort of technology to a supermini sized car and it ought to be possible to get close to an achievable 70mpg

[Gyp]

Now apply the same sort of technology to a supermini sized car and it ought to be possible to get close to an achievable 70mpg

...which is what I usually got from my 1994 AX (the '93 was quicker but slightly thirstier)

[Leon-y-k]

Now apply the same sort of technology to a supermini sized car and it ought to be possible to get close to an achievable 70mpg

well... vag are sorta getting there with the blue motion, ecomotive, and green line - i think the 1.4 tdi fabia greenline can acheive upto 85mpg! so there getting there slowly.

I know fiat have also brought out a eco freindly version of the bravo but they still kept all the creature comforts...manufacturers cant ax the creature comforts and push the price up (come to think of it alot of engineering and calculations have gone into modifying engines and box's aero dynamics etc.. but to be honest they could of done it in the 1st place to all the models!!)...

I doubt not many, unless tree hugers will give up electric windows and aircon...weh hey why not get rid of power steering and everything! :P

I mean these things arn't nessecary to people like ie; my nan who just want something cheap for a-b but for the same price you could pick up a nice level 3 1.2 right?

bla bla bla sorry i went off topic a bit! but that seems to be proof that diesle isnt dieing. and that companies still see a future in making economic vehicles...

its not rocket science to know fuels going up all the time. even for them.

and i think the R8 tdi is a vag thing. just ike the Veryon, and Pheaton...etc...just to boast about the engineering

[Dr Zoidberg]

...which is what I usually got from my 1994 AX (the '93 was quicker but slightly thirstier)

True , but the AX weighed about as much as a packet of crisps (I used to drive one) so a modern car is also having to drag a lot more weight around which doesn't help economy

[Blade404]

well... vag are sorta getting there with the blue motion, ecomotive, and green line - i think the 1.4 tdi fabia greenline can acheive upto 85mpg! so there getting there slowly.

Fabia Greenline £11,495, tax band = B, claimed = 68.9mpg, actual = 49.5mpg

Polo Bluemotion £12,125, tax band = A, claimed = 74.3mpg, actual = 54.6mpg

Ibiza Ecomotive £10,995, tax band = A, claimed = 74.2mpg, actual = 52.1mpg

The Fabia doesn't really look like the best buy from the VAG group.:(

Just for a comparison with something abit larger...

Focus Econetic £16,550, tax band = B, claimed = 65.5mpg, actual = 45.8mpg

All of the cars get to 60 quicker than the Skoda as well.* Needless to say the petrol hybrids don't come close to the mpg figures of these diesels but if it wasn't for the nasty batteries would still be better for the environment as cars don't just emit CO2 so thats not really a fair comparison on the emissions front.

I've seen a few reports now that mention the demand for diesel is set to increase even more as tankers are going to start burning a diesel/heavy oil mix to lower their sulphur emissions.

*All stats care of AutoExpress

[echo]

I've not been on here for a while and was reading this thread and thought I'd comment on things too.

Having been a Scoob driver with heavy right foot I was used to around 20 mpg but I didn't have the two kids and petrol was a lot cheaper. Anyway, I drive around 45,000 miles a year and it takes well over a month to get my mileage back so the jump in prices has been hard on my pocket. So, I decided to try and drive my vRS more smoothly and relaxed and on a round trip to Scotland averaged 63 mpg. I did a 160 mile trip to London today and including London stop start got 59.98 mpg.

To be honest I'd rather have my foot down a tad more and I'll see how long I can keep this up but I've found that 60 mpg is easy to get with the vRS even with occasional overtaking.

Before the prices went crazy I averaged about 47 mpg. All of these numbers are based on the trip computer which I guess isn't perfect but I have seen a big difference in mileage per tank.

Mike

[HotVRs]

True , but the AX weighed about as much as a packet of crisps (I used to drive one) so a modern car is also having to drag a lot more weight around which doesn't help economy

And you would likely die in an AX if you hit anything larger than a fly.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Fabia Greenline £11,495, tax band = B, claimed = 68.9mpg, actual = 49.5mpg

Polo Bluemotion £12,125, tax band = A, claimed = 74.3mpg, actual = 54.6mpg

Ibiza Ecomotive £10,995, tax band = A, claimed = 74.2mpg, actual = 52.1mpg

The Fabia doesn't really look like the best buy from the VAG group.:(

*All stats care of AutoExpress

But Auto Express were doing a story on how "fuel efficient" cars aren't really any good , so they were doing their best to prove that.

If you take a brand new car that's not properly run in and don't make any effort to drive in an economical fashion then it's no surprise you get pants figures.

I get better than 49.5 in a PD140 octavia so I have no doubt the Greenline can get far more than that when driven accordingly

[robmawer]

But Auto Express were doing a story on how "fuel efficient" cars aren't really any good , so they were doing their best to prove that.

Indeed - even most comparable petrol cars can get close to those "actual" figures (although possibly not any in the VAG group)!

People on here see massive variation in economy - eg. Fabia vRS seems to be anything from 30mpg-60mpg average - and there can't be that many manufacturing differences. Suspect the major factors would be driving style, maintenance, tyre choice, etc...

I get better than 49.5 in a PD140 octavia

Is that an average of 25mpg one way and a return trip with the AA...? :rubchin:

Rob.

['Little' John]

The direct MPG difference isn't the only factor. To regain a cost advantage of running a diesel you have to complete a fair few miles and keep the car a long time (unless you got a good deal on purchase maybe).

We keep getting told this so I decided to do a comparison. Taking the official figures for the Octavia vRS (since there is no petrol Fabia vRS) I worked out what the cost of diesel would have to be to make it more expensive to run. Even with my low mileage (10k a year) I calculated that diesel would have to cost more than £1.50 a litre (assuming petrol at £1.12 a litre) for the diesel to become more expensive. Add in cheaper tax and insurance it's a no-brainer. OK diesels are more expensive to buy, but you will get more back when you sell them as well, so the difference in depreciation is actually fairly negligible.

[DGW]

- eg. Fabia vRS seems to be anything from 30mpg-60mpg average - and there can't be that many manufacturing differences. Suspect the major factors would be driving style, maintenance, tyre choice, etc...

I think that trip computer errors are the source of those variations. Owners who believe the trip readings quote the high figures, whereas those who log fuel and mileage over an extended period quote figures not dissimilar to mine, ie currently 47.34mpg. The rule of thumb which works for my car is to deduct 25% from the trip reading to arrive at a realistic figure.