Thoughts on why we have a culture of benefits in the UK

[cheezemonkhai]

This is probably going to go a bit mini rant, so if the mods think it's better in OT feel free to move it.

Anyway, I was having a think the other night while out at some peoples houses and have the following thoughts on why we have a large number of perfectly able bodied people unwilling to work and happy to claim a living from those who do work.

1) Maggi's changes and those of successive governments helped make everyone out for number one only and put in a culture of "you're nothing if you're not rich".

This has lead to people having to have everything even if they can't afford it and being uphappy unless they have it all.

No longer is it a case of start small and buy things when you can afford them, you must have it all and have it now.

2) The middle classes.

You can go at me on this one if you like, but the upper class know that in order for them to be able to do sweet FA and enjoy their money they need to pay a number of "workers" to do their work for them.

Some in the middle classes look down on the working classes as if they are scum and not worthy of existing. They make out that doing these sort of jobs make a person a nothing and seem to fail to realise that every cog in a geared system is important and without the working classes the country would fall apart in next to no time.

Now 2 makes me realise that because of the aspirations set out by 1 combined with the thought now polluting peoples minds that being working class is lower than low we are in this situation.

People don't want to be working class and think they should have everything.

People don't believe they should be doing low paid manual labour and factory jobs because they are better than that.

This means that you get what we are now seeing, where we are getting people in from the rest of the EU to come and pick our fruit and veg at £7 an hour and the UK workers think this is below them.

The fact that they now consider themselves "middle class" means that they shouldn't have to work in this way to obtain the goods they "need" and so if they are not handed a job paying enough to do this on a plate why work.

So really, the problem boils down to personal greed being promoted as a good thing, and the middle classes treating the working classes and others as scum.

If all the people who could work, but are instead sat on their **** had a sense of worth and achievement from doing the jobs they may be best suited to, eg manual, then maybe they would have a desire to actually get a job and say "I work at the farm/factory and I enjoy my job".

Sure they nay not be loaded, but I bet if they had enough money to get what they needed and some personal feeling that what they did was essential to the country then we wouldn't be in the same mess we now are.

Oh and those that were still too lazy, could be used to generate electric.

Discuss

[Skodaboy1983]

Myself and my auntie were taling about this at the weekend as her mother in law's neighbour has never done a days work in his life and gets every benefit going under the sun.

I have got to admit the people who come looking for work abroad come over here and don't complain at first and I admit I thought it was outragous but they do the job or a few jobs and don't complain to them it's their life they come over work for say their parents (sending money home) no matter how mundane the job is they get stuck in, we have a few folk from the eu doing what I used to do issuing letters all day long and compared to me their actually enjoy it!

[ap0gee1978]

I agree with the sentiment, although would distil my views thus:

The Welfare State is an important safety net and means of providing support where required, but it shouldn't be a lifestyle choice and am glad that people on the long term dole are going to have to do Community Service if they're on it for a long time (even though the amount of work appears pretty trivial). If you want to take things out, you should put things in...

[ap0gee1978]

As a footnote, I was surprised when I visited the Scottish Air Museum the other week, the only working age staff (i.e. not retired volunteers) were the two Eastern European girls at the ticket counter - obviously the youngsters of East Lothian didn't reckon the wages were worth the commute. I wonder what foreign tourists made of that...

[Mort]

People don't believe they should be doing low paid manual labour and factory jobs because they are better than that.

This means that you get what we are now seeing, where we are getting people in from the rest of the EU to come and pick our fruit and veg at £7 an hour and the UK workers think this is below them.

I went to Uni for 3 years, after a foundation of a year, and have probably spent over 30k-40k in total in order to get my qualifications. So, yes, I do think picking apples or such is below me. I didn't strive for my degree in order to do a job that I could have walked into from college. (not that there's anything wrong with it, my girlfriend has just finished working on a farm picking fruit).

But I wouldn't say I'm above the 'working class', I've worked on my education in order to go into a different class job. As have many graduates. And we're trying to get more and more students through University nowadays. Who's going to want to put that effort in, spend that money (as it's getting more expensive) and then have a career in a manual labour job that isn't related to their studies?

[ap0gee1978]

I think that's the ultimate point. The government's promoting higher education and the potential for self-advancement that it can bring without realising that a. not everyone's up to taking a degree (at least not one that has any vocational worth), and b. our bins still need emptying and crops harvesting, graduates or no graduates.

I must say, however, that I started working in a call centre (for much less than is now the minimum wage) the day after I finished my finals, as I wasn't prepared to either sign on or sponge off my parents while I looked for a 'proper' job. No-one's above anything IMHO...

[cheezemonkhai]

I went to Uni for 3 years, after a foundation of a year, and have probably spent over 30k-40k in total in order to get my qualifications. So, yes, I do think picking apples or such is below me. I didn't strive for my degree in order to do a job that I could have walked into from college. (not that there's anything wrong with it, my girlfriend has just finished working on a farm picking fruit).

But I wouldn't say I'm above the 'working class', I've worked on my education in order to go into a different class job. As have many graduates. And we're trying to get more and more students through University nowadays. Who's going to want to put that effort in, spend that money (as it's getting more expensive) and then have a career in a manual labour job that isn't related to their studies?

So you're saying that just because you got a degree that job is below you and that if you had a choice of doing a £7 an hour job or living off dole you would do the latter?

At the end of the day the walfare state is a safety net, not a career choice.

[Goochie]

I think all working class people are scummy and lazy. But thats mainly becaus I'm considerably richer that yeow !

[robmawer]

1) Maggi's changes and those of successive governments helped make everyone out for number one only and put in a culture of "you're nothing if you're not rich".

But the point is:

1. If everyone looks after their own, things take care of themselves naturally as a consequence.

2. Money has always spoken - not something instilled by the Tories. If anything, they encouraged the atmosphere of "if you work hard and succeed, you'll be rich", rather than "your poor, stay in your hole".

No longer is it a case of start small and buy things when you can afford them, you must have it all and have it now.

The instinct to live at your means is nothing new - just the explosion of available credit in the early 80s changed the barrier of peoples' means.

People don't want to be working class and think they should have everything.

Must be a southern thing - most northerners I end up discussing this with would prefer to regard themselves as working class...certainly the desire is to improve financial standing rather than class.

Also plenty of people working for less than £7 p/h, and also plenty of people who would rather not work even if they were being offered £50 p/h - money doesn't motivate everyone...

Rob.

[Tom_vRS]

Still trolling then Phil! :P

I work at Tesco on a Sunday, stacking shelves to fund my stupid car habit. I have to say though, it is a little embarassing.

I do largly agree with you though Mark, being on benefits is more of a life choice for a lot of claimers it seems.

[Babs]

£7/hour at the apparent average of 37.5 hours a week is £13650 a year, which is a perfectly acceptable amount for someone to live on comfortably. Sure, you can't go out all the time and buy CDs/DVDs/Games/Crack but it's enough to live day to day on.

[cheezemonkhai]

I'm not having a go at them, I'm saying why are we as a country demonising (at least down south) being working class and doing a hard days work?

F**k crazy and kind of makes the point that this problem is at least in part of our own making.

[Babs]

Still trolling then Phil! :P

I work at Tesco on a Sunday, stacking shelves to fund my stupid car habit. I have to say though, it is a little embarassing.

I do largly agree with you though Mark, being on benefits is more of a life choice for a lot of claimers it seems.

I'm glad someone else thinks this is a good idea! An extra 8 hours a week is over £2000 a year, which can help a lot!

[Goochie]

Must be a southern thing - most northerners I end up discussing this with would prefer to regard themselves as working class...certainly the desire is to improve financial standing rather than class.

Thats because the north is full of lower class people who'd rather laden themselves with Elizabeth Duke bling and the latest flashy mobile than improve their class standing.

These are generally the sort of people who sit around complaining about everything and not wanting to actually do anything about improving their situation.

They complain about the rising cost of gas but they can still afford a Nokia N95, 4 soverign rings from H Samuel and 300 fags per month.

[Mort]

So you're saying that just because you got a degree that job is below you and that if you had a choice of doing a £7 an hour job or living off dole you would do the latter?

At the end of the day the walfare state is a safety net, not a career choice.

No, if I had the choice of that work, or none, I'd choose the work. My first job out of Uni was in a Cinema. Earning far less than £7 an hour! But I still believe that work is below me, yes.

[cheezemonkhai]

Surely rather than it being below you, it is just work that isn't using your abilities and not a long term choice.

A difference in attitude, as lets be honest, people need money, so when there is no money, no paying job is below you.

[Mort]

it is just work that isn't using your abilities

..And therefore below me. I have potential for so much more. Perhaps it's just attitude. Or maybe semantics. But working McDonalds is (in my mind) below me. I have the ability to do much more, where some other people do not.

It's not saying I would choose not to have a job if only McDonalds were hiring. Maybe that's the difference. But the plain fact is that I am actually better than some people with my abilities, and I don't feel that it's purely selfish for me to want to be rewarded for that. Just as I feel it's fair for people who are better than me to be in a higher class job and be 'above' me.

Maybe I'm just a bit of a ****. Either way; That's how I feel.

[expostmanpat]

Thats because the north is full of lower class people who'd rather laden themselves with Elizabeth Duke bling and the latest flashy mobile than improve their class standing.

These are generally the sort of people who sit around complaining about everything and not wanting to actually do anything about improving their situation.

They complain about the rising cost of gas but they can still afford a Nokia N95, 4 soverign rings from H Samuel and 300 fags per month.

No its just that Northerners have no requirement for the tag of suburban middle class (or uptight ******* as we call them), Either your rich and well to do enough to be upper class, or you work, you work then you are working class like it or lump it, why bother with the pretentious title of middle class, Whom I think you will find are traditionally despised by both the upper and working classes alike. (the upper classes for being brown nosed a-holes and the working class for trying to be something they aren't)

hth

[cheezemonkhai]

No I'm not a commie, but I just mean the fact that we designate below me rather than a job that doesn't use your skills kind of reflects upon the fact that we don't palce any value on the jobs.

[pixi]

It's a good job we have fine shops like Asda really.

[Goochie]

Rob, you appear to be the stereotypical northerner.

From my experience, the south has less defined class boundaries. The further north one travels, the more defined the difference is between people and the bigger the chip on some people's shoulder.

I dont believe anyone aspires to the "title" of middle class. The point I'm making is that those who you may consider to be "middle class" probably havent got there because they wanted to be middle class. They have most likely got there through hard work and a desire to improve their surroundings.

[Mort]

No I'm not a commie, but I just mean the fact that we designate below me rather than a job that doesn't use your skills kind of reflects upon the fact that we don't palce any value on the jobs.

I more designate the work as below me, rather than the job then I guess. But it's more to do with how you deal with that: I will work a job I hate or think is below me in order to have the income and, importantly, earn it.

But I will still believe that it is 'below me' in a way that I will strive to leave it or move up to a better job - not for the money but for the sense of achievement. Working is taken as a given. But the type of work is always going to be something I'm either better than or not.

[pixi]

While we're on the subject, northerners drink more alcohol than southerners

[expostmanpat]

I dont believe anyone aspires to the "title" of middle class. The point I'm making is that those who you may consider to be "middle class" probably havent got there because they wanted to be middle class. They have most likely got there through hard work and a desire to improve their surroundings.

Phil are you a working person, or do you sit up at the manor, sip pimms and look at your balance sheet?

The former and you are working class, the latter and you are upper class, Black and white, but I would like to bet you consider yourself middle class wether you aspire to be or not

[Goochie]

I cant read my balance sheet today, it got stolen by one of those working class mail delivery people.