After reading a road test report on the latest Honda Jazz I was amazed to read that at 70 mph, their 1.4 petrol with its 5 speed box revs at 3,400 rpm. This I would imagine could get a bit tiresome on lengthy motorway runs and sounds as if a sixth gear/overdrive is needed. Honda, for some reason, seem to resist producing a diesel version of the Jazz.

How do the Fabias compare at 70 mph in both diesel and petrol versions plus all engine sizes?

I think the 1.4 TDI turns over at 2,500rpm at 70mph; I think the Greenline version runs at 2,200rpm, or thereabouts.

My Felicia hits 70mph at 3000rpm or just over

Fabia 2 1.2 70hp-3550rpm @ 70mph-3-cyl engine in its 'sweet spot' at that speed so noise level not the issue that one might expect.

Edited 15 November, 200817 yr by [email protected]

After reading a road test report on the latest Honda Jazz I was amazed to read that at 70 mph, their 1.4 petrol with its 5 speed box revs at 3,400 rpm. This I would imagine could get a bit tiresome on lengthy motorway runs and sounds as if a sixth gear/overdrive is needed. Honda, for some reason, seem to resist producing a diesel version of the Jazz.

How do the Fabias compare at 70 mph in both diesel and petrol versions plus all engine sizes?

I would have thought that was normal for a petrol engine of that size.

I would have thought that was normal for a petrol engine of that size.

The Fabia 1.4 16V would be the ideal Jazz comparison, that produces 85 bhp at 5,000 rpm and 132 Nm torque at 3,800 rpm. (the 1.6 16V is 105 bhp at 5,600 and 153 Nm at 3,800 respectively) both with 5 speed manual transmissions. The Tiptronic Fabia 1.6 has the advantage of a 6th gear overdrive to aid motorway refinement.

Interestingly, the new Jazz in 1.4 form produces 100 bhp @ 6000 rpm but only 127 Nm torque at 4,800 rpm - a higher revving engine producing more power but less torque than the 1.4 16V Fabia.

So how does the 1.4 16V Fabia compare to the Jazz's 3,400 rpm at 70mph?

My 1.4 16v estate does a fraction over 3000 rpm at 70 mph and is very comfortable. The thing about this engine, is that it needs 2500 rpm at least to deal with gradients. I'm just coming up to 7000 miles now and it's really quite perky.

On a smaller engined car, having tons of power isnt all that useful, you want a wide usable rev range, so you can drive it without trashing the nuts of it all the time.

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to do that too sometimes hehehe

Whether the revs are annoying on a long journey, depends a great deal on what noise you actually get in the cabin. It will be miles better than the 1.1 Fiesta I drove 15 years ago :P

On a smaller engined car, having tons of power isnt all that useful, you want a wide usable rev range, so you can drive it without trashing the nuts of it all the time.

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to do that too sometimes hehehe

Whether the revs are annoying on a long journey, depends a great deal on what noise you actually get in the cabin. It will be miles better than the 1.1 Fiesta I drove 15 years ago :P

Elements such as tyre road drumming, general cabin noise insulation all come into play but there is nothing more tiring on a long run at 70mph than having a high revving engine which always leaves you wanting to seek that non existent extra gear. Not having driven the new Jazz, I feel it could fall into that category - may be wrong.

If the 1.4 16V Fabia revs at 3000rpm at 70 in 5th and the Jazz at 3400rpm I know which one of the two I'd pick for any long motorway work although would probably be seeking that elusive sixth gear in either of them.

I think the 1.4 TDI turns over at 2,500rpm at 70mph; I think the Greenline version runs at 2,200rpm, or thereabouts.

Thats an indicated 70 - you'll find its geared to do a 'true' 63mph at 2500rpm... I used to have the old 1.9TDi which was a true 2500rpm at 70 and then a 1.4TDi80 which was about 2800rpm at a true 70... the 1.9 was far more relaxing... I think the Greenline uses the same gearing as the 1.9 in 5th to get the mpg figure up... tbh that was the only real fault with the 1.4TDi, the engine is quite capable of coping with the higher 5th gear ratio but for some reason they didn't fit it... spoilt what was otherwise a good car and hence why I'm back to the 1.9 with my new Roomie!

Bassa, this whole high-rev deal is logical. Let me explain.

You're probably aware of strict emission restrictions applied to today's cars. To achieve these figures, automakers (apart from other measures) make the final gear quite short, so that you can drive in 5th at around 27-30mph. The engine does not eat fuel in lumps, and doesn't pollute the planet all that much. This, however results in the final gear being found too short on highway.

Toyota Corolla / Auris, for instance, revs around 3400rpms at 70, but given it's awesome soundproofing, you don't actually hear the engine. Driving faster, around 95mph, the engine already makes it's presence felt, which is freakin' frustraring.

In other words, you'd better get used to this tendency, 'cos it isn't changing anytime soo.

Bassa, this whole high-rev deal is logical. Let me explain.

You're probably aware of strict emission restrictions applied to today's cars. To achieve these figures, automakers (apart from other measures) make the final gear quite short, so that you can drive in 5th at around 27-30mph. The engine does not eat fuel in lumps, and doesn't pollute the planet all that much. This, however results in the final gear being found too short on highway.

Toyota Corolla / Auris, for instance, revs around 3400rpms at 70, but given it's awesome soundproofing, you don't actually hear the engine. Driving faster, around 95mph, the engine already makes it's presence felt, which is freakin' frustraring.

In other words, you'd better get used to this tendency, 'cos it isn't changing anytime soo.

I can accept a budget/city car having tiresome high revs at 70mph but a supermini should be capable of that speed whilst still delivering a quiet and refined ride and this, in addition to good noise insulation, really requires a sixth gear overdrive. You only have to move up a group from superminis and a six speed box is the norm. This is where the Fabia 1.6 Tiptronic scores, emissions aside, it has a sixth gear overdrive.

As a 1.4TDI diesel estate owner...I have to say I think the gearing is just about right in 5th. It likes to be doing 55mph at least before you engage it...and preferably 60mph. At a GPS confirmed 70mph in 5th (not completely accurate but pretty good) my speedo showed 72mph and the rev dial showed 2500rpm. I tend to cruise at an indicated 75mph (a GPS 73mph) when safe and it was showing just 2700rpm or thereabouts. The Greenline model I borrowed showed just 2000rpm at 70mph but I didn't GPS it. Any help? :thumbdwn:

Edited 19 November, 200817 yr by Estate Man
jus carnt speel!

I can accept a budget/city car having tiresome high revs at 70mph but a supermini should be capable of that speed whilst still delivering a quiet and refined ride and this, in addition to good noise insulation, really requires a sixth gear overdrive. You only have to move up a group from superminis and a six speed box is the norm. This is where the Fabia 1.6 Tiptronic scores, emissions aside, it has a sixth gear overdrive.

Erm, not quite

My 1.6 petrol Mazda doesn't, neither would a comparable Focus or Octavia. Golf 1.6 is 6-spd though.

All Minis, Coopers and 'S'have standard 6 speed forward. It does make for very comfortable driving on duals / motorways, I agree the Fab should have had a six.

My wife's Mini Cooper 1.6 petrol has the 6spd and also a display which tells you when to change up. On light throttle, I think it's 2nd to 3rd at 20, 3rd to 4th at 28, 4th to 5th at 34 and 5th to 6th at 40mph, I guess for economy driving.

Also I wouldn't say it was really much quieter on the motorway than my 1.9TDi Fabia.

Guys, you seem to not be reading my reasoning. You'll never have long gears on minis and superminis - because you'll need a big engine to power through.

Bigger cars have no problem with that - my Audi A4 2,0TDi Multitronic revs ar 2000rpm at 75mph in "final" ratio...

Guys, you seem to not be reading my reasoning. You'll never have long gears on minis and superminis - because you'll need a big engine to power through.

Bigger cars have no problem with that - my Audi A4 2,0TDi Multitronic revs ar 2000rpm at 75mph in "final" ratio...

A bigger car is also a heavier car.

Power to weight ratio, the bigger engined Fabias, (1.6 petrols and 1.9 oil burners) should compete with most A4's OK .

My old 6 speed 2.2 D-4d Avensis would rev at 1,900 doing 70 in top - together with good sound insulation, both relaxed and refined on a motorway.

Bassa, small cars are just like this. Short gears is the only way to compensate the weaker powerplants... You will NEVER get a powerful engine under the bonnet of a supermini because of:

- engine size

- turbos? Price, mate!

- price

- price

- price

-price.

My 1.9 Fiat GPS had 6 speeds, i miss that.

The 1.4 16v 100BHP Fabia needs a 6speed not a 5speed (90mph @ about 4500rpm)

Bassa, small cars are just like this. Short gears is the only way to compensate the weaker powerplants... You will NEVER get a powerful engine under the bonnet of a supermini because of:

- engine size

- turbos? Price, mate!

- price

- price

- price

-price.

The Fabia's using the 1.9TDi or the 1.6 16V are far from weak powerplants. In fact you do not have to go back very far to find the former unit in the A4. Of course it is still currently used in the heavier Octavia and even the much heavier Superb today, albeit with only 5 speed boxes.

The 1.9 TDi produces 105bhp @ 4000 rpm whereas the 1.6 16v produces the same 105bhp but at 5600 rpm. The necessitiy of a sixth gear is not quite as vital in the lower revving diesel as in the higher revving petrol. With the 1.6 16v Fabia, the manual only has a five speed transmission but the Tiptronic version has the benefit of a sixth speed overdrive to help with relaxed cruising at the maximum motorway speed limit.

Going off on a tangent slighty, but what should the RPM on tick over be I have noticed that Mrs Stig's 1.9 tdi Sport tdi ticks over at around 950 rpm. Is this normall or to high??

Interesting thread...here's my two penny's worth from the motoring technical side for what it's worth. There are all sorts of reasons why some supermini's don't have six gears. It's generally not because of lower powered engines. Indeed, many supermini's have a superior power to weight ratio over their bigger, larger engined counterparts (measured brake horsepower/NM per tonne and/or in many cases per litre)...one of the key factors in deciding from the technical point of view whether a car can take a sixth HIGHER gear. Additionally, I've yet to see a car with a five speed box that is happy to take 5th gear at 27-30mph...although of course it can be engaged at that speed...but it will use more fuel if you do that and oil pressure falls considerably encouraging engine wear and stress on components. As an ex techy I would strongly recommend NOT doing that in a modern short stroke engine (which virtually all engines are now to reduce piston speed and engine wear). No modern designer intends 5th to be a normal drive gear at that speed. Most are at least 20% or 25% overdrives to reduce engine revs at higher speeds.

You also need to make the distinction between petrol and diesel. Diesels are torque monsters and can pull really high gears. The Fabia 1.4TDI 80bhp PD engine pulls quite a high 5th gear. It could have a sixth gear if it were the 'Greenline' 5th gear ratio made into a sixth gear. The 1.4TDI 80bhp PD engine puts out more torque at 195nm @ 2200rpm than Volkwagons own 2.0 litre petrol 115bhp engine (175nm@ 3,400rpm). In the main, petrol engines need to rev to produce the power and get that all important torque...a technical reason not to slow the engine revs too much by running a very high final gear ratio whether in 5th or a 6th gear. This would make it much less driveable on hills, overtaking etc.

Supermini's are in general not the choice for high mileage motorway work and simply don't require a sixth gear, as determined by the manufacturers. Five works ok for most. But there are other factors too. As has been said, cost, but useability too. Although, overall it's what the car is in the main going to be used for that dictates how the designers will kit the gearbox out. Supermini's tend to be used for shorter trips. The current trend for six gears is going to continue in the search for economy and flexibility and lower emmissions etc, and will no doubt spread to some more of the supermini's... but in the main most small cars won't be given a sixth gear as it simply isn't needed.

Oh crikey! Sorry...a bit long and sounds like a sermon, it's not! :confused:

Edited 21 November, 200817 yr by Estate Man

today i was doing a constant of K MPH which would be 87MPH but my RPM never went above 3

i have a 1.4 TDI 70 hp spec engine