Hello guys.

The title tells the issue, I am planning to change MPI system to my year 1995 1.3 SPi Fel. I don´t have MPI hardware yet, but I think the mechanical fitting is not the probelem. But what else should I take into account? If wiring and sensors comes with other stuff, how is then the connecting MPI ecu to the car? Fuel pump? Immobilizer?

However, I´ve planned to change also ecu to some more suitable for racing use, EFI Euro1 or DTA may be good options. Anyway I´d like to made substitution first with original Simos 2P.

EDIT: Ok, I found this old thread http://briskoda.net/rwd-skodas-others/converting-spi-mpi/90146/ and it tells quite much. I am wondering how manifold wouldn´t fit when head is same in all 1,3´s..? And fuel pump, is it ok only change the pump, all the lines, carbon filters and other stuff fits to greater pressure?

Edited 3 June, 200917 yr by FelRace
new information found

I think that there are 2 MPI versions 54 and 67BHP versions

Sounds like a good project but I have to ask (might seem stupid)

Why? the SPI has a standard 67BHP

And what benefits does the MPI have over the SPI?

Yes, there are two versions both SPI and MPI with 54 and 68 bhp:s.

There really is difference between fuction of SPI and MPI even if the stock performance numbers are same. Throttle response is much better in MPI and stock ecu can be optimized to give 68 kW when SPI with Mono-Motronic gives something about 56 kW when optimized, for example. And honestly, I don´t find a reason why fueling system would have been changed if there wouldn´t be any difference..?

One point is also that my car is in rally use. Homologations gives possibility to get 1,4 crank and multipoint with Golf 1.8 injectors and throttle body. With all "Mini-Kit" modifications 135-140 bhp can be achieved (yes, I know there exists special mini-kit manifold but I´ll find it later)

I am not planning to change to carb like many has done with rally Felicias so there is no reason to stay in SPI and pass some competition advantage.

Edited 3 June, 200917 yr by FelRace
typos

you're building a rally car?

you're building a rally car?

That´s right. Actually it already is rally car and I have raced with it but engine and transmission are under improvement - you never get enough speed, right:P?

So, something like this:

Edited 3 June, 200917 yr by FelRace

awesome!!!

My mechanic and his son went to a rally stage.

I used to watch it on TV when it was the RAC lombard and sat in an Oulton Park Rally experience car they throw you about a fair bit!!, wouldn't mind seeing a live stage though.

I thought you were converting for normal road use!!

I'm pretty sure I've read the MPI head is different, the camshaft timing chain is also different in the MPI so I think the easiest way to do this conversion is to get a complete engine, ecu, fuel pump etc and drop it in. Might be easier to buy a cheap 1.3mpi (maybe look for one with a knackered clutch, rusty body, or bad MOT failure to make it cheaper) get day insurance and take it off road. Then you'll have a spare gearbox too. You could probably even drop your old engine in the Felicia and sell it on for as much as you got it.

I'm pretty sure I've read the MPI head is different, the camshaft timing chain is also different in the MPI so I think the easiest way to do this conversion is to get a complete engine, ecu, fuel pump etc and drop it in. Might be easier to buy a cheap 1.3mpi (maybe look for one with a knackered clutch, rusty body, or bad MOT failure to make it cheaper) get day insurance and take it off road. Then you'll have a spare gearbox too. You could probably even drop your old engine in the Felicia and sell it on for as much as you got it.

Yep, that´s the way I have now thougt I should do. All parts in Finnish scrapyards are very expensive (e.g. gearbox 400-500 euros, engine 700-1000 euros) and still you can buy whole 1998 Felly by same 700 euros and it is less than 160 000 km driven, has MOT done and in general in good shape. Whole spare car would be good when there is quite regularly need also for body parts in rally cars...

About those differences between SPI and MPI, I think camshaft and valve mechanism still is the same?

My felly is for sale in Finland, make an offer! 1.3 MPi

Skoda Felicia 1.3 Comfort Viistoperä 2000 - Vaihtoauto - Nettiauto

My felly is for sale in Finland, make an offer! 1.3 MPi

Skoda Felicia 1.3 Comfort Viistoperä 2000 - Vaihtoauto - Nettiauto

Heh, funny that Finnish guys have to go to the British forum to make business .

Thanks J-P, I can make an offer but I´m afraid it would be quite far from your request. That´s because your car has "wrong face" so I can´t use bumber, lights, hood and grill if I crash and actually there is not all of those parts existing...it is quite new car, from 2000, but still almost 200 000 driven. That is also one thing lowering its "competitiveness" among Felicias for sale.

But let´s continue with private communication if you still are interested to find common vision about the price of the car.

your car has "wrong face" so I can´t use bumber, lights, hood and grill if I crash

you can use it all

you can use it all

Yes, when changing all parts mentioned. But if some are already missing, the rest are useless when can´t be mixed with older ones. So for me it would be better to find pre-facelift model with MPI.

But thanks anyway, I wasn´t sure if even mountings of those parts are suitable for older model when basic construction of the body front is different, including bumber inner part for example.

you are right,

but you can use the face lift bumper on a pre-face lift car. but not the other way round

just for your info

Hi!

Changing from SPI to MPI used to be very common on the Skoda challenge rally cars here in the UK, where every little extra bit of power counted.

I think (from memory) you will need to change the manifold and throttle body, the ECU and part of the wiring loom (Which I think simply unplugs). I think you will also need to use the coil pack from the MPI (the SPI has a distributor, but the MPI engine uses timing marks on the flywheel to trigger the ECU to controll the spark timing. You'll also need to use the fuel rail and regulator from the MPI engine.

The MPI fuel pump is slightly higher capacity (1100cm3 per minute rather than 1000cm3, but the fuel pressure is controlled by a regulator, so I suspect that the SPI fuel pump would be fine.

The MPI head is different too - the valves, though the same diameter have narrower stems (7mm rather than the 8mm of the SPI head) and the head generally flows better than the SPI one. The MPI head also has single conical valve springs, rather than the dual springs of the SPI head. So although you don't have to upgrade to the MPI head, it might be worth a horsepower or two.

The difference in power between the two versions of the MPI engines is due to the compression ratio, which is primarily influenced by different pistons - the lower compression (54bhp) engine has pistons with quite a pronounced recess in them.

BTW, I converted my Felicia rally car to use a 1.4MPi engine from a Fabia, running individual throttle bodies, and it made 116bhp, so these engines can cope with quite a bit of tuning. I kept the standard SPI fuel pump, which was fine with the tuned engine.

Do you need to run to homologated specification in Finnish rallying?

cheers

James

Thanks a lot James for your long and informative answer. It took long time from me to answer but better late and so on.

Well, now I have one whole ´97 Felicia with MPI engine as "donor car" and in I will take engine from that to my rally-Felly. Before that there will be project to build gearbox with GrA. ratios to make car easier to drive and then new engine will take place after summer season.

Yes, we have to run with homologated specifications and that makes building car a bit more challenging. However, there is lot of parts available and many experienced gouy hawin knowhow abouit building rally Skodas so I am not alone with my problems . James, can I send you some private message when I need advices to car building, I think you could help me in many matters?

Actually I have at the moment again some questions. There is in the Felicia a chaircoal tank as a part of the emission control system. I really care environment, but still that part is only extra weight in rally use. Is it possible just take it off and plug pipes to tank and manifold? Or shoud that pipe from tank be open to give some breath to tank?

Another thing that came into my mind when I followed hose from chaircoal tank to manifold. What is little hose between air cleaner housing to manifold, in manifold it is located near to that hose from chaircoal tank?

the car on your avatar looks like my felly

One thing bugs me, (this may concern you):

I'm in the process of converting my carbed ride to SPI. Got a flywheel (unknown, told it was off a Felicia), got the throttle body from a Golf Mk3, the wiring loom, sensors, intake, headers from a Felicia, and a computer for a SPI Favorit. (OK, this was to keep is as cheap as possible, with all this the cost is still under €100) I made the necessary changes to the wiring (added relay for fuel pump, also throttle body power and O2 sensor heat, added the necessary fuses) Problem: the car had VERY rough idle, it revved up to 1600, then died almost down to 400, then again up to 1600. VAG-COM shows "000 000 000" in all Measurement Blocks when the dying occurs.

I put the injector together on a bench, used a waveform generator, and found no obvious traces of fault, the injector is clicking all right, there is spark, and varying the frequency makes the difference, the injector clicks faster, etc. What I found: the computer only gives "000 000 000" readings when the engine revs go over 6200 (limiter, obviously). But how can that happen on an engine that is barely revving 1600?

Then it dawned on me: are the flywheels for the SPI and the MPI engine different? Could I have an MPI flywheel? (hey, I won't fight getting an MPI system on it, I won't pull the engine again to swap the flyweel, that's for sure :-)

James, can I send you some private message when I need advices to car building, I think you could help me in many matters?

Actually I have at the moment again some questions. There is in the Felicia a chaircoal tank as a part of the emission control system. I really care environment, but still that part is only extra weight in rally use. Is it possible just take it off and plug pipes to tank and manifold? Or shoud that pipe from tank be open to give some breath to tank?

Another thing that came into my mind when I followed hose from chaircoal tank to manifold. What is little hose between air cleaner housing to manifold, in manifold it is located near to that hose from chaircoal tank?

Of course - please feel free to PM me any time.

I removed the charcoal canister from my car altogether, including all the pipework, and blocked off the end on the tank - the fuel system runs pressurized, so doesn't need to "breath". I''m not sure if you need to keep it for homolgation?

regards

James

I'm raising up this old thread when finally that conversion for my rally car is taking place. So new engine is built and it got some more modifications than I was first planning...

Block is naturally stock, but flywheel and connecting rods are lightened and new light T-pistons took place. Cam is original Skoda Motorsport model with only "medium" lift but long opening times for valves. Head is slightly skimmed and ported, followed by new 4-1 steel exhaust. Top of the head -and I´m proud of it - there exists Skoda Motorsport manufactured Kit Car -inlet manifold with big VDO throttle body. It is controlled by original Simos 2P ecu as remapped.

Gearbox has have GrA. ratios already since last summer, but now it has also new Gripper LSD.

Engine will be mounted on Saturday, let´s see how it works. One more question I still have related to that ecu. It really is remapped, but of course it is now with different engine and maybe not working perfectly. Have someone experience about that remapping, is it possible via OBD2-channel or is there need to open the box and touch the actual chip?

I offered the tuning job for one guy in Finland and he was really suspicious about that ecu model.

Oh, I forgot to tell. Reason for intensive car improving is that I´m going to take part of Neste Oil Rally Finland WRC competition in July. You can find our webpages from www.matkallamaalilavalle.fi . I´m really sorry to have them only in Finnish but you can always see some fascinating photos

Edited 29 June, 201015 yr by FelRace

Sounds great - have you got a picture of the manifold you are using? Where did you get it?

As for the Simos, I'm not sure it can be remapped by those means, they can be re-mapped by changing the programming, but I don't know how (there are companies here that have remapped them, but they don't say how it's done, obviously) - I think it is by replacing a chip though.

Sounds great - have you got a picture of the manifold you are using? Where did you get it?

As for the Simos, I'm not sure it can be remapped by those means, they can be re-mapped by changing the programming, but I don't know how (there are companies here that have remapped them, but they don't say how it's done, obviously) - I think it is by replacing a chip though.

Here you can find some photo and here also comparison to stock MPI. I bought manifold from one of my friend in Czech. It is homologated part and I´m waiting lot from it .

I have understood that when there is aim to remap some original ecus in the civil cars, the main chip will be removed and another one, programmable part will be sweated instead. By this any ecu is reprogrammable. I still have to ask more advices, from Czech also.

Edited 29 June, 201015 yr by FelRace

Thanks for the pics - How much was it? Where can I get one?

Felrace, your profile doesnt say where you are.

If you are anywhere in the midlands area, my sons wrote off his 1.3mpi felly in February and it was taken to a local scrap yard; probably near Stourport as that is where the accident occurred.

The car had done only about 56k and was serviced by Skoda from day 1 with no expense spared. The engine was mint and it went like a rocket (hence the crash!!) The plate was S181KRF and it was a "Chilli Red" GLi Estate.

A good engine to have if you want something barely run in!!!

He's in Finland....

the only way to remap those siemens simos ecu's is to desolder the eeprom from the circuit board and solder in a new one, if you are doing a lot of development work on the ecu it's worth getting a chip socket soldered on so that the chips can be removed and refitted easily