Felicia emission problems..

[Skodillac_fi]

I have a nice little problem with my Felicia 1.6 -96 engine. When tested the emissions of this car, they have been something amazing.. I allready changed the lambda sensor, rear part of the exhaust pipe and still no improvement. Then I run out of ideas and went to see a car exhaust specialist. He tested the car and new lambda sensor and there was no problem, but emissions are still too high.

Now I don't know where the problem could be. Engine runs smoothly, fuel consumption has been 6-8 litres per 100km. But the car specialist said that the fuel consumption of this car should be some 15 litres with these emission results.. Anyone have had problems with 1.6 engine emissions??

[KenONeill]

Catalytic convertor failed?

[djaychela]

What are the ACTUAL figures of the emissions that are on the MOT failure? Each type points in a different direction....

[Skodillac_fi]

What are the ACTUAL figures of the emissions that are on the MOT failure? Each type points in a different direction....

Car is at the moment in the exhaust specialist's carage, but numbers were about

CO 4.4 5.6

HC 144 250

CO2 11.1 14.3

O2 1.6 0.8

First figures are at the idle speed and second over 2000 rpm

[djaychela]

That's MASSIVELY out.

The figures I have for a pass on a 1.3 Felicia are:

CO - max 0.2%

HC - max 200ppm

Lambda - 0.970-1.030

Mine was 0.12%, 36 and 1.015 respectively.

Looking at your CO figure, I'd say the cat has failed, but the HC is massive too (either burning oil or unburnt fuel), and the cat won't help with that. Lambda's also miles off, so could be a number of things. Not good, but then even if it's lambda sensor and cat you can get both of those (parts) for under £100. Or really cheaply from a scrapper.

[TeflonTom]

have you done a diagnostics check? i'd like to bet it flashes up a P0171 code telling you it's running too lean. i reckon you are burning oil

[Cepheuz]

Car is at the moment in the exhaust specialist's carage, but numbers were about

CO 4.4 5.6

HC 144 250

CO2 11.1 14.3

O2 1.6 0.8

First figures are at the idle speed and second over 2000 rpm

check the ignition and spark gap, high HC point to that, check the vacuum lines and PCV system spray penetrating oil into the engine let it run for awhile and check, if numbers falls the you have a oil leak in the valve seal

i have a carb and my numbers are not even close to that

[KenONeill]

And, on the burning oil thing, if you're burning oil that could FUBAR a new lambda and a cat.

[Skodillac_fi]

Car has gone through the diagnostic test and there weren't any problems. All sensors work, everything were as it should be, but still emissions are too high.

If the engine burns oil, shouldn't I see some thick smoke from exhaust pipe? Exhaust specialist said that it burns all the gasoline fine because the lambda sensor was very clean after emission tests, he even tried another lambda sensor and still no improvement. He also said that it can't a cat problem because a cat can't even clean this amount of emissions..

Now anyone has no idea what to do. Maybe the ECU is broken in some way, but that is way too expensive to change..

[KenONeill]

Try taking the air filter out, and see if that helps.

[Skodillac_fi]

Try taking the air filter out, and see if that helps.

Have to try that in the next emission test.. I let the engine run without the air filter and tried how strong is the suction in the air intake pipe. It wasn't very powerful but I guess it shouldn't be when engine is running on a idle speed..

[djaychela]

I still think the CO would be cleaned up with a cat - my first Fel rally car failed the MOT dismally on the CO reading, and it was 'cos the cat had the guts beaten out of it - with the cat in there it passed, textbook. The HC reading, though, was OK beforehand, so you'd need to figure out what is wrong - I'd check all the usual stuff (air filter, plugs, etc).

Also, remember that ignition timing has a MASSIVE effect on HC - in fact the current rally car passed the MOT on HC after advancing the timing (on the laptop I'd taken with me) - is there any scope to alter the ignition timing on a 1.6 Fel? (I've never had or seen one, so I don't know if it's possible to swing the dizzy to change the timing)

[pinkskud]

i'm sure you can move the dizzy pre and post.

as for the HC. get the mot station to clean and test there kit.

[Skodillac_fi]

Now tested without air filter, no changes.. also tested when brake booster vacuum hose was off and even this "leak" straight to the intake manifold wasn't enough to turn mixture to lean..

So the problem is that lambda sensor tells that the mixture is too rich so there is too much fuel, but anything doesn't decrease fuel amount.. So the problem isn't the cat because lambda sensor before the cat tells that mixture is too rich..

Any ideas??

[djaychela]

Two things:

1) Are you sure that the lambda sensor is active at low revs? I.e. that the ECU is actually taking notice of the signal? They don't do at full throttle, and some don't do when at low revs.

2) Do you know -AS FACT- that the Lambda sensor is really giving a "rich" signal to the ECU - i.e. have you had a multimeter or scope on it as it's running to know that it's doing that?

If you can adjust the timing, try swinging it while on the emissions meter - increasing the advance could well clean up the HC figure.

Saying the problem "isn't the cat" isn't taking full account of the possible problem - the lambda on a Fel has a very narrow operating range and operates like a switch, and it only has a limited range of effect on the injection amount. If the cat is knackered, it doesn't matter if the right mix is going in or not, the emissions will still be too high; the lambda being before the cat makes no odds.

[Cepheuz]

rich mix could point to temp sender problem, do check valve clearance and timing beforehand, check that the engine is idling @ 800 +/- 50 rpm, clean Throttle body and spary with electrical circuit cleaner, spray that on the sensors conection as well, don´t ground any of the sensors. check sensor wiring for shorts specialy the lambda (if you have the one cable, two cable, three cable lambda consult expert on how to test wiring) check vacuum hoses for leaks, afterwards check pvc system for clogs.

Change Oil (5W30 cold, 10W40, 15W40, 20W50 depending on region and climate) Spark plugs (check heat range and gap, i recomend brisk @ .70mm, NGK @ .75mm, BOSH @ .80mm) and filters check HT cables (spark should be blue and with a loud crisp Crack)

remove the fuel lines and route them to an external fuel sorce to make shure is not fuel tank contamination with something like diesel or some weird fuel addittive,

check if your loosing coolant, maybe its getting into the combustion chamber

please send a picture of the spark plugs and try to get a vacuum reading of the manifold so i can try to give you more ideas.

best of luck men (i forgot, im not an expert, but i know my way arround a engine and im posting thing i would check myself to try to help you)

if all is ok, spray DW40 into the engine after warm and check readings to rule out seal leaks.

if mix is rich or lean lambda sensor is not working period, cus it would shut donw the engine with those readings (IMHO)but i´m no expert.

[Skodillac_fi]

Thank you for those hints, there was some things that I haven't tested yet.. Have to take the spark plugs off first and see what they look like. Yes, I changed new oil yesterday and now I think that I can hear some knocking specially when engine is cold. Still I dont't have any idea could that mix up the engine mixtures in some way..

[Skodillac_fi]

Now here is some pictures of the car and the spark plugs, spark plugs are in order 1 to 4 where the first spark plug is closest to the distributor.. Maybe there is a slight difference between 4 and the others, but that might result from my old camera or from removal process..

It's kind of shame to scrap a car, when it's otherwise in a good conditon:(

[TeflonTom]

those plugs look normal to me, nothing to worry about there

[Cepheuz]

ground strap point to a very advance ignition, probably 6º off

center electrode and tip of ground straps point to weak spark

base ring and center electrode point to overfueling

sparkplug threads show correct heat range for spark plugs

center electrode ceramic indicate hot chamber

you should have a coil pack so check the coil pack first

get a strobe light and check timing, reset the engine managment computer

tighnen all the plugs correctly

lambda sensor is not reaching 300º lambda is ok

do check the temp sender and thermostat housing (is the temp reaching 90º?)

apart from that compression is ok, no seal leak and your not getting coolant into the combustion chamber, engine seems to be in tip top shape.

hope it helps (vacuum reading on your car should be right now in 24, 25 inches of mercury, real reading should be closer to 20, 21 inches of vacuum)

[Skodillac_fi]

Spark plugs have been changed a year ag. After that, about half year ago ignition coil went off so it may have had some effect on the spark plugs back then. Temp sensor has been changed few days ago, also the thermostat has been changed earlier because engine temperature wasn't high enough and thermostat was almost in pieces inside the thermostat housing. Thanks again.

Timing is the next thing that should checked and that's one thing that I can't do myself.

[djaychela]

Have those plugs been in there a year?

[Cepheuz]

Spark plugs have been changed a year ag. After that, about half year ago ignition coil went off so it may have had some effect on the spark plugs back then. Temp sensor has been changed few days ago, also the thermostat has been changed earlier because engine temperature wasn't high enough and thermostat was almost in pieces inside the thermostat housing. Thanks again.

Timing is the next thing that should checked and that's one thing that I can't do myself.

mmm, rich mix is saving you from predetonation, but the first thing is to set ignition timing to the correct degree, also you said that you change the ignition coil so that means that your ignition system is similar to mine, check the ignition coil for defect using tester (you can get the ohms online, but i will post them as soon as i can) also check the cable that goes from the coil to the dizzy and change the ignition module to see if that helps (i had a lot of trouble with mine until i changed it)

Best of luck

[TeflonTom]

but the first thing is to set ignition timing to the correct degree,

you cant set the ignition timing manually with a timing light on the fuel injected engines. you need to pop it into basic settings mode (i cant remember the procedure for doing it though) and lock the ignition advance to a reference value.. otherwise the base timing figure dances about. it does this because the ecu uses fine adjustment of the ignition timing to stabilize the idle speed

[djaychela]

Absolutely - they are complex beasts, and it's not like setting up a car with a dizzy. I think as a test, mark the dizzy position relative to the head with a scriber (so you can put it back where it was) and try swinging it so there's a bit more advance and see what the effect is on the emissions. As Tom has already said, those plugs don't look too bad; they're definitely not looking oily, and if anything might even look a bit lean, but they're not what you'd expect if it was burning enough oil to give the sort of HC figures you have, if they've been in for a year.