Dear fellow Briskodians,

I received a quote for parts and labour for my planned Konis, rear anti-roll bar and Whiteline anti-lift kit where I was advised that I should really be looking to install a FARB at the same time.

I understand that, if I were going to install a FARB, the time to do it would be when the front suspension is already in bits and alignment is getting done for the dampers and WALK. However, although the cost of the FARB itself isn't too bad, it adds a lot to the labour costs (since the installation involves dropping the subframe of course).

I may even install the RARB myself to save costs and would only have it on a tame setting. My question is therefore if folks think that the lack of a FARB would really compromise safety/handling given this setup. I don't want to spend the money unless it is a very worthwhile addition.

Its very much a matter of opinion....

I have Whiteline RARB and WALK. ARB's are not just about keeping the car flat in corners, they're also about handling balance (understeer, neutral, oversteer). I find that with my RARB on the 'medium' setting my car is sitting on the understeering side of neutral - i.e. it feels very well balanced most of the time, but if I really push it or hit a low-mu piece of road surface it tends to understeer a bit. That's the way I like it, because in an emergency it won't bite back.

A stiffer FARB will tend to dial some understeer back into the chassis, so if you fit the FARB then you'll need the RARB to be very stiff to maintain the handling balance - so ride quality will suffer in consequence and on 'rough' road surfaces the car may feel a little skittish.

Incidentally, the RARB is an absolute doddle to fit, and the WALK kit is pretty straightforward. If you have decent 18mm, 16mm sockets and a breaker bar and torque wrench they I'd go the DIY route. I posted a simple 'how to' message in the 'Technical' section of the forums a little while ago.

hauptmannis right, its all about balance. i have eibach front and rears mated to WALK and the results are excellent. A rear bar gives a good result on its own, but i havent tried a rear bar walk configuration.

I have my eibachs set to soft on the front(still stiffer than oem) and stiffest on the rear bar.

Thanks Hauptmann and thanks again Simon

I find that with my RARB on the 'medium' setting my car is sitting on the understeering side of neutral - i.e. it feels very well balanced most of the time, but if I really push it or hit a low-mu piece of road surface it tends to understeer a bit. That's the way I like it, because in an emergency it won't bite back.

That's exactly where I want to be myself!

A stiffer FARB will tend to dial some understeer back into the chassis, so if you fit the FARB then you'll need the RARB to be very stiff to maintain the handling balance - so ride quality will suffer in consequence and on 'rough' road surfaces the car may feel a little skittish.

...and that's exactly what I want to avoid. My car is a commuter so I'm trying to get a balance with ride quality here.

My feeling is to forget the FARB. I am sure I could give the WALK fitting a go; I have all the tools but it didn't appear to be much extra when the konis and alignment were being done at the same time time.

Its very much a matter of opinion....

I have Whiteline RARB and WALK. ARB's are not just about keeping the car flat in corners, they're also about handling balance (understeer, neutral, oversteer). I find that with my RARB on the 'medium' setting my car is sitting on the understeering side of neutral - i.e. it feels very well balanced most of the time, but if I really push it or hit a low-mu piece of road surface it tends to understeer a bit. That's the way I like it, because in an emergency it won't bite back.

A stiffer FARB will tend to dial some understeer back into the chassis, so if you fit the FARB then you'll need the RARB to be very stiff to maintain the handling balance - so ride quality will suffer in consequence and on 'rough' road surfaces the car may feel a little skittish.

Incidentally, the RARB is an absolute doddle to fit, and the WALK kit is pretty straightforward. If you have decent 18mm, 16mm sockets and a breaker bar and torque wrench they I'd go the DIY route. I posted a simple 'how to' message in the 'Technical' section of the forums a little while ago.

Absolutely spot on summary there.I know it's a different car altogether but this is the setup( plus Whiteline alloy droplinks ) and results I have on my 06WRX. The transformation in handling is frankly superb and as Hauptman says perfecly balanced with just the right amount of understeer. Good luck with the mods, you'll love them:thumbup:

fitting just a front arb on a fwd car will dial in more understeer.

fitting just the rear arb will dial out understeer, but will also alter the handling balance of the car, meaning that on the edge and in the wet you will potentially head into understeer if you lift of violently.

add to this the WALK and the car will have even more reduced understeer and alter that balance that little bit more.

if you do the front bar and the rear bar overall body roll will reduce more than when just the rear bar and WALK are fitted, this has lots of positive effects. the balance of the car will be towards less understeer but not to the point of providing oversteer when pushing, you will have more grip through out the whole car as with less body roll the wheel geometry will stay at the optimum setting for longer.

Add to this the WALK and i think in the average drivers control you will have a more capable car for more of a time.

Im not saying that a rear ARB and WALK wont work, as it undoubtably will, especially in the hands of a very accomplished driver, but IMO the average driver would get more from a front and rear arb and walk setup.

when looking into fromnt and rear bars there are a few options out there.

std iirc they are 24mm front 21mm rear.

I think eibachs run 27mm front 25mm rear.

other options available have fronts increased to 25mm match to a 25mm rear

but a bigger diameter bar does not necessarily mean that it will be a stiffer bar, so ask about.

Also take into account adjustability.

Initially i had my eibachs both set to stiff. i then fettled around after nurmerous trips to the ring and have decided that with the fron bar on its softest setting(still stiffer than oem) and rear bar on its stiffest that turn in was at its best.

This is of course only my opinion. im open to criticism.

Ciao,

on my commuter I too went for RARB (@medium) and WALK, on std coils and dampeners. I found the care much safer and stable even (if not above all) on wet. IMHO the WALK did wonders to improve traction and precision while cornering and I doubt a stiffer FARB would give same benefits. So, I would say the FARB isn't strictly needed, but - depending on your driving habits and the roads you run on - don't honestly know if a stiffer FARB mated with a RARB@stiffest setting would be more effective when traveling fast on smooth roads.

but less body roll over all keeps the wheel geometry at its best settings for longer meaning you have more grip. im not saying that rarb and WALK is not as good as front and rear combo as i bet they are very much the same with their owjn individualm characteristics.

what i am saying though is front and rear bars paired with a walk as well will undoubtably be better than the other two options on their own.

I do alot of track days and only lived 90 mile from the nurbuurgring until two months ago. the setup works fantastically and that is compatred to when i went around the ring in standard form(just coilovers), to having the froint and rear eibachs fitted, then changing the settings and doing it again to going down there with the ARBs and WAlk. the car is awesome now. believe me

... just meant to answer to muckypup worry "My question is therefore if folks think that the lack of a FARB would really compromise safety/handling given this setup. I don't want to spend the money unless it is a very worthwhile addition." I don't think that w/o FARB there are any safety/handling issues, at least at the levels of power and conditions I drive with (which, BTW, with a TDI are quite inferior to your TFSIs).

Then, no doubt, that for my tastes I would have enjoyed also a stiffer FARB and - perhaps - FSD + pro-kit.

hmmm, was just wondering if perhaps a stiffer FARB would help better driving the heavier TDI nose?

forgot you had the tdi, although i cant see there being to much of a difference in the handling characteristics

Thanks guys,

I think you have both answered my question. I fully understand the dynamics and the pros and cons of the ARBs and I have no doubt that Simon is correct in that a FARB will balance out the RARB and ground the car nicely. My main concern was that a RARB on its own would put the car, which at stock clearly tends towards the safer option of understeer, into a situation of tricky oversteer. It sounds like this is definitely not the case (and I could handle the back end tending to step out a bit more on occasion). As long as I am not giving my car the understeer of a souped up Ford Capri!

I think the key thing for me is that my car is a commuter rather than a Nurburgring racer. Although the commute involves some fast, windey roads (thus the reason for the Konis, stock springs, WALK and RARB), I do not drive it on the limit (OK, its a 231 bhp VRS so maybe occasionally ), especially when wet. Combine this with the fact that I want ride comfort when it is a 65 mile round trip each day, the FARB even on a soft setting may firm up the ride a bit too much for me if balanced with a RARB on a firm setting. I think I would keep the RARB reasonably soft and on its own as a choice more suited to me.

Does the WALK really induce a bit more understeer in itself?

Thanks for the reassurance, I just wanted to make sure that the car did not turn into an oversteering nightmare as the feedback on my quote from the garage made me fear!

Still not sure about keeping stock springs or going for Eibachs though. Oh decisions, decisions!

Thanks guys,

Does the WALK really induce a bit more understeer in itself?

Thanks for the reassurance, I just wanted to make sure that the car did not turn into an oversteering nightmare as the feedback on my quote from the garage made me fear!

Still not sure about keeping stock springs or going for Eibachs though. Oh decisions, decisions!

Happy it helped and WALK will actually help you steering, rather than understeering, because it make your wheels have much more traction and reduce axle tramp.

Happy it helped and WALK will actually help you steering, rather than understeering, because it make your wheels have much more traction and reduce axle tramp.

Great - that is what I was hoping. Even if it did introduce a bit more understeer my feeling is that it is more than worth it for the extra traction, particularly in cornering, that would be available.

Edited 20 October, 200916 yr by muckipup

Just as a brief follow up, I stumbled across the following link relating to a 2007 article in Motor magazine comparing the Golf GTI to the Octavia VRS. The FARB seems to be a little more popular with the Golfs; this might explain why. Basically is says that the Octavia is setup with more of an understeer tendency that the Golf.

VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com - View Single Post - Koni FSD,Eibach ProKit, H&R Anti Roll Bars

I agree with that.

All the ARBs combos and matques will have been designed with the mk5 gti in mind not the vRS.

when performance car magazine pitted the vRS, GTI, and cupra together on track they said similar things about turn in being better on the GTI, but the vRS being easy at the limit. But all that in consideration the GTI only posted a 0.2 second slower lap. suprising considering the extra weight the vRS carries.

my decision to go for front and rear ARBs instead of just rears was highly influenced by the guy who did my corner weight setup on my car where we had a really in depth converstaion about the options i had. That and the vRS being alot heavier than the GTI so more susceptable to body roll.

In the future though, when my car is 100% as i want it, ill be looking into getting a much stiffer rear bar,

LSD, \nd top mounts will be on long before that though

I'm currently in the (temporary) position of having a '58 vRS TFSI and a '57 Golf GTi 5 door. The Golf weighs only about 50-60kg less than the vRS, and TBH I simply cannot feel it on the road. Performance-wise they feel identical. My vRS has a Whiteline RARB and ALK whereas the Golf is standard. The vRS rolls a bit less than the Golf.

I've read that the Golf turns sharper than the vRS, but TBH again they feel exactly the same to me, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if its not the same rack, suspension etc etc. Steering on the vRS is a little heavier, but I put that down to the WALK. The Golf is a bit quieter and rides slightly softer (but the Octy has 18" wheels vs 17" on the Golf). I think that in truth there is bugger all difference between them to the average driver, even a fairly enthusiastic one.

they do indeed have the same rack, i think suspension wise they have different damping rates and thats about it

Thanks again, gents.

My car goes in later this week for the FSDs, WALK and RARB. Was going to fit myself but I didn't fancy doing the FSDs myself and the WALK and RARB fitting costs weren't too much on top considering the front wheel alignment gets done in one hit.

I don't think that I will regret any of this including fitting just the rear ARB. The only thing that I may regret is sticking with the stock springs instead of the Eibach's but we'll see.

Why aren't you fitting Eibachs as well? Is it a ride height issue? If not then you really should stretch and buy and fit the Eibachs as well whilst the suspension is being changed. From what I've 'read' the ride quality should still be excellent, but the handing and appearence of the car further improved, not to mention the cost to later fit the Eibachs if you change your mind. I'm looking to fit WALK and RARB to my FL in a month or two. Maybe then next year when funds permit also go the FSD/Eibach route.

Why aren't you fitting Eibachs as well? Is it a ride height issue?

Good question and I guess it is partly about ride height in that I am really not too bothered about making the car look cooler by lowering it slightly; my insurance company also seemed to take more exception to lowering springs

I did go fishing for some info on the difference in an earlier thread: http://briskoda.net/octavia-ii/koni-fsd-stock-springs-petrol-vrs/159573/

I have no doubt that the Eibach's may stiffen up the car a bit more and perhaps be a little better on the cornering then standard springs due to the more squat ride height although, tbh, I have not found any evidence myself that the car handles significantly better with FSDs with Eibach springs over FSDs with the stock VRS springs. However, I did read that the Eibachs had the same compression rate as stock and therefore would not be improving (or screwing up!) the ride comfort. The additional lowering seems quite subtle to me on the Mk 2 VRS (20mm vs. 30mm on other Octi's including Mk1 VRSs ref. JKM Website) and, as with any lowering the FSDs may have to work a bit harder (reduced life :confused:) on lowering springs.

Whereas I do like a bit of spirited driving now and again, I don't go nuts or do anything like track days. A big factor for me is that I also have lower back problems and want the best of both worlds i.e. good handling, cornering and grip but without too much expense to the ride quality. That was the reason for going to the Koni FSDs, RARB and WALK but without lowering springs. As I say, I may regret that one!

Edited 2 November, 200916 yr by muckipup

you wont regret it, the difference will be absolutley huge, i noticed big differences and mine were dont in stages, coilovers, ARBs then walk. noticed it all, ARBs made the biggesat difference IMO. then WALK, then coilovers. uprated dampers will make a good difference when it comes to bumpy roads as well

Thanks Simon, I certainly hope so - it's setting me back a bob or two and, since I work on a strictly need to know basis, SWMBO doesn't need to know :P

...and thanks for all your help and advice! Same goes to Hauptman and Genoa too!