Hi again

New day, new topic, blank piece of paper, extreme caution regarding what is said and done - oh, and abject apologies to the moderate team, as I hadn't noticed that the Lady P thread had been moved to a different part of the Briskoda universe! Serves me right - I should have looked. And I will now that I'm aware of it! There's always something new to learn.

And that leads me to my latest quest for enlightenment.

Four-by-fouring? Given that the grandaddy of all off-road four-wheel drive vehicles, the Land Rover Defender is way over 60 years old, and is reckoned to be as good as it gets, what is it that makes one 4*4 better than another? I think there are two separate considerations - off road, AND more grip when slippery on ice, snow, mud, manure.

The Defender has no fancy electrical gizmos (that I know of - willing to be corrected) and yet has a great reputation. The Yeti has advanced electronics that govern where and when the power is used, as appropriate.

I suspect Llanigraham is the chap with the detail here - and seeing as he's torn between a Freelander and a Yeti, his analysis will be interesting. (And perhaps to compare them with the Defender, too - which is up for a redesign at the mo!!)

G

Thanks butty, just drop me in it, won't you?!?

Defender: cousin of the original 80" Land Rover first produced in 1948. Now bigger, more powerful and probably more capable. In it's latest guise it does have some electronics, and is permanently in 4 wheel drive. It isn't quick or comfortable, but will probably go anywhere most people wouldn't think of and is easy to frighten yourself with, Great fun too!!

I do compare the Yeti with the Freelander, as does one of the local LR dealers. The Yeti is slightly smaller than a Freelander 2, but the same size as a Freelander 1. It uses a similar Haldex unit as the FL2,, but the Skoda one is newer and more "refined". I have driven the FL2 off road, at Eastnor, and it is VERY impressive. Better than the FL1, but then it is also a lot more expensive. The FL1 is surprisingly good off-road, but like most "cross-overs" is let down by a lack of ground clearance, however good "ground reading" skills can overcome that. That will be the same with the Yeti.

Where the FL, and I am sure the Yeti, is be good is on slippery surfaces, like very wet grass, or ice. It is here where the electronics starts to work well, as it is able to transfer drive quickly from one wheel to another, as the computer senses slip. The Haldex units act very quickly, and that together with the ABS system aids movement. Even with my FL I have been able to get moving quicker and more safely that a Defender 90 on an icy hill. He sat there with all 4 wheels turning and only got going once it had dug through the ice and reached the gravel below.

In general driving I suspect that most people would never know the difference. Don't forget that for most of the time you are driving a front wheel drive car, and the change to 4 wheel drive, with the modern systems, is so smooth and rapid that most people won't know it has happened. Where it does come into force, and where most people notice it is pulling away. FWD cars get wheel spin, 4 WD get a tiny slip, and pull away. So there it makes it safer.

I cannot say what the Yeti is like off road. The test drive I had I wasn't allowed to do it, so just stuck to a grotty road through the Hafren Forest, but I suspect that it will be good, and that I will be able to go anywhere in it that I could with a Freelander. It is not a "roughty toughty" off roader, but it looks to be very capable. I certainly would have no problem staying with 4x4 Response with one. Perhaps if anyone from SKODA does actually read this Forum they could let me have one for a weekend and I will actually get to test it properly??

Lets be honest, 75% of all the people who actually buy a 4x4 will never really use it as such. The most adventurous most people will do will be either towing their caravan off a wet pitch, or driving out of a muddy carpark at a show. Unfortunately an awefull lot of them then embarass themselves because they don't actually know how to do it!!

Well, one of my cars was a Land Rover 90 County (I'm not sure it was called a Defender then?). I bought it because it suited my rugged outdoor image and I could just throw lots of kit in the back as well as making a platform that could be fixed to the one side in the rear for sleeping on when I didn't want to use my tent. I equipped with all-terrain tyres, expedition roof rack / ladder, side protection bars, bull bar, etc. and it looked the biz.

It was just before I left Uni and my chums and I had a few good times taking it off road. The trouble was, it was the ultimate off-roader (and still is) but it was a tractor on tarmac. When I started work, the daily commute to work was not only becoming rather expensive (just 28 mpg being returned by the 2.5 ltr diesel) but it wasn't an easy thing to drive through the urban districts of Brum.

Alas, it had to go in favour of a boring, mainstream Astra Diesel. Believe it or not, my Lanny made it all the way to New Zealand as a mate's friend (a kiwi) over here on contract bought it off me then shipped it over.

I loved my Land Rover and did consider a Freelander and a new Defender but I just can't get on with the size and shape of the FL2 and the Defender is still, in essence, a tractor.

A defender isn't a Tractor! it/'s really refined and comfortable with excellent performance.

Well compared to my Land Rover Series III 21/4 diesel it is anyway!

One of the major factors in determing off road ability is ground clearance. Things like crossovers tned to have poor ground clearance compared to 'real' off roaders like Land Rovers and Land Cruisers. Another factor is wheelbase, generally shorter wheelbase vehicles are better as they have a better 'ramp breakover angle'. Essentially they're less likely to gound when driving over rough terrain. Approach and departure angles are also important factors.

Some info on angles here

http://4wdtrailzone.50webs.com/The_Breakover_Angle_explanation.htm

Most traditional off roaders have a gearbox with high and low ranges. Low range provides excellent control when off roading.

EDIT: One of the biggest factors is tyres of course, some of the modern specialist tyres you can get are amazing. If you can bodge a set of these under your Yeti it shoul dbe quite good in the mud.

http://www.devon4x4.com/products_a/p618c168/0/32/9.50-r-16-extreme-trekker.html

Edited 12 March, 201016 yr by BillScarab

Bill, your comment on tyres is correct, but funnily enough sometimes the more aggressive tyre can be a hinderance.

Using the Freelander as an example, but knowing the Yeti system it would also applyy too aggressive a tyre actually can stop the vehicle. The "system" works on sensing wheel slip to activate the electronics to stop the slip, but if a too aggressive tyre is fitted these often won't spin/slip so the system doesn't work. Result one stuck vehicle!!

It is one of the reasons that I only ever recommend fitting All Terrain tyres to the Freelander, and not Mud Terrains. I think those Simex's would be a step or two too far..........

Edited 12 March, 201016 yr by Llanigraham

Bill, your comment on tyres is correct, but funnily enough sometimes the more aggressive tyre can be a hinderance.

Using the Freelander as an example, but knowing the Yeti system it would also applyy too aggressive a tyre actually can stop the vehicle. The "system" works on sensing wheel slip to activate the electronics to stop the slip, but if a too aggressive tyre is fitted these often won't spin/slip so the system doesn't work. Result one stuck vehicle!!

It is one of the reasons that I only ever recommend fitting All Terrain tyres to the Freelander, and not Mud Terrains. I think those Simex's would be a step or two too far..........

Don't quite follow your reasoning.

If the tyre, on the driven wheel, is not able to slip then all the torque available will be applied to that wheel. The Yeti system relies on wheel slip to transfer the torque from the slipping wheel to the other three. If the vehicle is so bogged down that no wheel can spin then a stalled engine will result.

Terfyn,

it is difficult to explain, but a more aggressive tyre can sometimes "bog down" and therefore not provide forward motion, and therefore drive will not be transferred to another wheel.

I didn't believe it at first, but one of the LR mags did a test a couple of years ago with 3 identical FL's on road, all terrain and mud terrain tyres, and on the same bit of ground the AT equipped was best, then the MT, then the road tyred one, and the last 2 weren't that far apart.

there is also the possibility that because the MT tyre does grip so well in other places that it can overload the transmission system if it does suddenly either stop or start slipping.

Terfyn,

it is difficult to explain, but a more aggressive tyre can sometimes "bog down" and therefore not provide forward motion, and therefore drive will not be transferred to another wheel.

I didn't believe it at first, but one of the LR mags did a test a couple of years ago with 3 identical FL's on road, all terrain and mud terrain tyres, and on the same bit of ground the AT equipped was best, then the MT, then the road tyred one, and the last 2 weren't that far apart.

there is also the possibility that because the MT tyre does grip so well in other places that it can overload the transmission system if it does suddenly either stop or start slipping.

Sorry chaps

Can I pull you back from individual tyres and their capabilities?! I want to understand why one type of car seems to be better than another - why is the defender "better" than a Rav4, say? What will the Yeti manage with its electronics and intelligence?

As I said, it is both the severe mud-plugging and the slippery slope ability that interests me. I want to have confidence that my Yeti will do what I'd like it to - or else not to attempt it!

George

Sorry chaps

Can I pull you back from individual tyres and their capabilities?! I want to understand why one type of car seems to be better than another - why is the defender "better" than a Rav4, say? What will the Yeti manage with its electronics and intelligence?

As I said, it is both the severe mud-plugging and the slippery slope ability that interests me. I want to have confidence that my Yeti will do what I'd like it to - or else not to attempt it!

George

Defender is better than a RAV4 because it has; Greater axle articulation, lockable diffs, greater ground clearance and is supplied as standard with more appropriate tyres (for off road use).

I want to understand why one type of car seems to be better than another - why is the defender "better" than a Rav4, say?

Sorry George, but all these things are connected, but..........just using your annalogy........

Why is a Defender better than a RAV 4?

Defender is permanent 4 wheel drive (mechanically), with a second gearbox, known as a transfer box, that gives high or low ratios. Therefore you get Low 1 to 6 and High 1 to 6. Low ratio gives better torque and less speed so better control, plus the central diff in the Transfer Box can be locked. LR has better ground clearance and is over engineered to take much more punishment. Think of it militarily.....would you give a squaddie a Suzuki Vitara to go into battle, in the dark, in a forest?

What will the Yeti manage with its electronics and intelligence?

It will go much further than a normal car, but in general not as far as a "proper" off roader. It will cope with muddy and slippery conditions better, and will give you more control in those situations.

It will cope with quite uneven ground, even to the extent of having 2 wheels off the ground at the same time (diagonally hopefully!!).

It will ford deeper water.

It will be designed to have "some" strengthening and protection to take some knocks underneath.

As I said, it is both the severe mud-plugging and the slippery slope ability that interests me. I want to have confidence that my Yeti will do what I'd like it to - or else not to attempt it!

What do you call severe mud plugging? I suspect that your's and mine are somewhat different.

The Yeti, like most of this type, are let down by a lack of ground clearance. The Yeti is approx 8", compared to a normal cars 6", and a Defender's 10", so it isn't bad, and is up with the Freelander. However as I have proved many times I can get through things in the FL by reading the ground and altering the route, sometimes by as little as 6", to get through a "rough" patch.

Have a look at this album:

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w56/Llanigraham/Powys%20Woodfair/

This is typical of the type of stuff I will do. The photos "Splash, et seq" I was preceeded by a Discovery that had to be towed out from there, but I drove straight through, mainly courtesy of the FL's traction control. I feel that the Yeti should easily do the same.

On slippery slopes again the fact that you have 4 wheel drive will give you better traction and more control. In a 2 wd car as soon as 1 wheel spins you basically stop moving, but in the Yeti (or others) you still have potentially 3 more available! Also the Yeti, with the OFFROAD button option,, has what I know as Hill Descent Control, (since that is what LR call it) and this gives you the ability to control the speed of the car down hill, without you doing anything, even pressing the brake pedal, therefore giving you more control. One of the later videos show this very well. I think it is the one with no driver in the car.

In the snow one of my friends described it as feeling as if the car was "walking" down the hill, because you could feel the FL's system braking and releasing different wheels at different times. It feels odd at first and you have to trust it the first time you use it, but it is excellent.

One thing that has to be remembered though, and this applies to EVERY 4x4, gravity still is the overpowering force, so once you stat slidding down hill it doesn't matter how many wheels are driven, you aint going to stop!!

If you fancy a quick trip over the north side of Eppynt I'm quite willing to show you a few things. I'm sure my training from LR can be transferred to a Yeti.

Edited 13 March, 201016 yr by Llanigraham

Defender is better than a RAV4 because it has; Greater axle articulation, lockable diffs, greater ground clearance and is supplied as standard with more appropriate tyres (for off road use).

Alomost. Central diff is lockable, but not the axle diffs, as standard.

And have you noticed that now the Defender comes standard with All Terrain Tyres, not MT's.

If you buy a Yeti with 16" wheels you can get suitable AT tyres.

[Double posting.....oops!!

Edited 13 March, 201016 yr by Llanigraham

If you fancy a quick trip over the north side of Eppynt I'm quite willing to show you a few things. I'm sure my training from LR can be transferred to a Yeti.

Graham - when i get the thing (Mid April hopefully, according to Sinclair Skoda in Swansea) I will be chasing you!! It would be very useful. Having camped at Eastnor years ago and seen the tracks, I have been intrigued ever since.

As son as it arrives I will be looking to meet up!!!

george

I have said that I am willing to arrange a gentle off road day for no more than 5 vehicles, probably on either a Saturday or Sunday, but any other day if it fits in with my shifts. It will be based around the Elan Valley, starting from the Visitors Centre, and will use suitable scenic lanes that will be non damaging if driven sensibly. I will lead with the FL so they won't be severe at all. Finish will probably be in Llanidloes, where there are suitable pubs, but a packed lunch and flask will be needed.

Free advice and tuition.

No charge, but suitably filled glasses welcome later!!!

Edited 13 March, 201016 yr by Llanigraham

As a taster, here's one of the lanes:

DAMN DOESN'T LOOK IT WORKED!! WILL TRY AGAIN!!!

Edited 14 March, 201016 yr by Llanigraham

Try again:

My link

My link

My link

My link

Yes it is the long lane up the Claerwen Reservoir, and when you get to the end you have to turn around and drive all the way back again. Beautiful views!!

Edited 14 March, 201016 yr by Llanigraham

Try again:

My link

My link

My link

My link

Yes it is the long lane up the Claerwen Reservoir, and when you get to the end you have to turn around and drive all the way back again. Beautiful views!!

Brilliant, just brilliant. I am astonished that Google Streets have been out exploring rural Wales as much as they have done. I was explaining on another thread why I can't have a gazebo to protect my imminent Yeti from bird poo, and there was my cottage, in all its glory, showing the seagulls in the window and all...http://maps.google.com/

Dunno if that'll work!

Thanks for offering this - I expect that we'd all have a great day out, drinking Pimms under the open 5th door, on blow-up furniture!!

G

Bill, your comment on tyres is correct, but funnily enough sometimes the more aggressive tyre can be a hinderance.

Using the Freelander as an example, but knowing the Yeti system it would also applyy too aggressive a tyre actually can stop the vehicle. The "system" works on sensing wheel slip to activate the electronics to stop the slip, but if a too aggressive tyre is fitted these often won't spin/slip so the system doesn't work. Result one stuck vehicle!!

It is one of the reasons that I only ever recommend fitting All Terrain tyres to the Freelander, and not Mud Terrains. I think those Simex's would be a step or two too far..........

You're right about tyres for modern SUVs of course. I was thinking in more general terms. I'm only really used to traditional off-roaders like Defenders and Series Land Rovers although I have seen one or two Freelanders at off road days doing remarkably well.

Edited 14 March, 201016 yr by BillScarab

Freshacre,

I was surprised they had bothered driving to the end of that lane, considering it is a BOAT and doesn't go anywhere. I haven't yet found another one they have done. I understand that MOD are complaining about them doing some of the Eppynt routes!!

Bill,

a lot of people haven't believed some of the places I have got to in my Freelander!! Worried some of 4x4 Response Wales at a Training Weekend in Radnor Forest when the water was half way up the headlights!!

when the water was half way up the headlights!!

Pant ---- excitey ----- would the Yeti do that too???!!!

Pant ---- excitey ----- would the Yeti do that too???!!!

Don't know. I haven't had a chance to look where the air intake is.

According to the manual the Yeti's wading depth is up to the sill so going up to the headlights might be a challenge! Skoda are probably being a bit conservative but the last thing you want to do is go too deep and trash your engine.

Agreed Bill, but then according to LR mines is 400mm, but I've been well over that!

I haven't been able to find it in any of the "bumph" I've got, can you tell me where you found it?

According to the manual the Yeti's wading depth is up to the sill so going up to the headlights might be a challenge! Skoda are probably being a bit conservative but the last thing you want to do is go too deep and trash your engine.

Open the bonnet and check where the air inlet is.

It about level with, or a bit above, the top of the grille and facing backwards.

tom

Agreed Bill, but then according to LR mines is 400mm, but I've been well over that!

I haven't been able to find it in any of the "bumph" I've got, can you tell me where you found it?

Page 179 of the manual here

http://www.skoda-auto.cz/com/service/documentation/yeti/Pages/0509.aspx