Maybe one day Kaiser_B will get round to posting the video from our visit to the swiss alps, near white out, a good couple of inch of snow on the road, snow blowers operating in both directions and I sailed up and over the Grimsel pass in an mx-5 on std Pirelli's, hairpin bends and 500' drops regardless :p

This is taken from the Furka, the other side of the valley, the Grimsel is the road you can see disappearing into the snow line/ cloud in the mid-top right

And yes we did stop for a couple of minutes at the top, thought about fitting the snow socks for the descent, but decided **** it, it was wet and cold and snowing too hard to get them from under the luggage in the boot :rofl:

Edited 4 December, 201015 yr by postmanpat

it makes no difference on a 'normal' automatic gearbox which gear you select manually to pull away, if you select 1st it will stay in gear one, but if you select 2nd it will use 1st gear then select 2nd once the road speed is high enough.. obviously completely different kettle of fish for those with a DSG

I say just fit winter tyres

Makes you kind of despair when you read some of the replies in this thread.

Why? It's a sensible discussion and more people need to appreciate the subject.

If you look at the answer I posted earlier you'll see that I didn't say that starting in 2nd gear would eliminate the chances of wheelspin, it simply makes it EASIER to pull off and accelerate without wheel slip. Its just a method for reducing torque to the driven wheels and reducing throttle sensitivity. The latter part is important because modern 'fly by wire' throttles can have a pretty non-linear response on initial movement.

I have a remapped vRS TFSI and starting gently in second is a little easier than first on snow and ice.

Fair enough. Personally, the last time I drove anything with a throttle & clutch response that would have benefitted from a pull away in 2nd it was a Morris Marina with a shot clutch.

The revs are so low that I don't think clutch wear is a consideration.

Problem is that there *is* a myth that keeps persisting that pulling away in a high gear magically increases the grip available at the driven wheels, and people with no understanding or mechanical sympathy will give it 3000rpm, stick it in second, and either burn out the clutch or spin the wheels even faster than they would in 1st.

As a driver in a manual car there's 3 ways to control the torque to the wheels: how hard you press the throttle, how much you slip the clutch, and what gear you use. Whatever method you use, the power and torque has to be controlled.

I say just fit winter tyres

+1.

Right, now we got them heading for the ropes, the killer punch,

Someone please explain why the VW engineers saw fit to set the DSG box up to hold first,.............in slippery conditions.

This first which in the dry 7 speed DSG is I understand an abnormally low ratio, & only usually employed for a split second to overcome the initial "snatch" of mating a rotating part with a stationary part.

There HAS to be a sound engineering reason for this decision.

They COULD have set the box up to allow the manual selection of second from stationary....................but did not................why not, if there was any advantage therein.

ding ding

Edited 4 December, 201015 yr by dieseldogg

Right, now we got them heading for the ropes, the killer punch

Give it a rest, this ain't a witch hunt. Jeez

Dieseldogg, have you considered that maybe VW have got this one wrong?

Ask yourself why so many other manufacturers have a winter mode on their auto boxes which locks the car in second - the instructions all say it's to prevent wheelspin.

Maybe VW are worried about overloading the clutches in the DSG gearbox, particularly the 7 speed with the dry clutches, which has a torque limit hence it's not used beyond the 1.8TSI.

And what several posters have missed is that while the engine will make the same torque at a particular rpm irrespective of what gear it's in, that's only true at the crankshaft. It's a fact of physics that transferring drive through a gearbox will either multiply the torque or divide the torque depending on whether the gearing is reducing the speed or increasing the speed of the wheels.

Edited 5 December, 201015 yr by r6ymy

Maybe VW are worried about overloading the clutches in the DSG gearbox, particularly the 7 speed with the dry clutches, which has a torque limit hence it's not used beyond the 1.8TSI.

Reckon so. Also, perhaps the 1st/3rd/5th/7th clutch is different than the 2nd/4th/6th, and that one isn't designed to slip?

And what several posters have missed is that while the engine will make the same torque at a particular rpm irrespective of what gear it's in, that's only true at the crankshaft. It's a fact of physics that transferring drive through a gearbox will either multiply the torque or divide the torque depending on whether the gearing is reducing the speed or increasing the speed of the wheels.

Oh indeed, but at the end of the day it will take a certain amount of torque to move the car: if there isn't enough grip to transmit that torque, it's not going to move. The gear ratio between the crank and the wheel doesn't affect this, and the amount of torque *at the wheels* depends on three things, as I said earlier. Largely, it's down to the skill of the driver to control this: my thing here is to explode the myth that some people have (not in this thread, I don't think) that 2nd gear magically increases grip. It doesn't. It might make it easier to control the transmitted torque if your clutch is a bit grabby (maybe an uprated clutch?), but that's all, and of course, if you still break traction in 2nd, the wheels will spin faster for a given engine RPM.

Maybe VW are worried about overloading the clutches in the DSG gearbox, particularly the 7 speed with the dry clutches, which has a torque limit hence it's not used beyond the 1.8TSI.

So the veyron as lower torque than a 1.8TSI?? Just being pedantic.

VWrong :'(

As Steve used to say "does ..................not........................... compute"

and erm

Auto box as in a torque converter box?, as opposed to a twin clutch box?

cos they do be different in their torque multiplying effect or somesuch stuff i do not properly understand, so perhaps indeed on a torque convertor auto box it makes sense to start in second, as indeed I believe I alluded to earlier? somewhere?

I think Fords Powershift is the only other mainstream DSG type box, which is essentially a computer controlled manual, hence essentially the same as a manual box.

Edited 5 December, 201015 yr by dieseldogg

So the veyron as lower torque than a 1.8TSI?? Just being pedantic.

No, of course the Veyron has more torque, but it has a different gearbox, yes it's a DSG, but it's specially built by F1 company Ricardo.

The 7 speed DSG used in the Octavia is a light weight, dry clutch, unit built by Borg Warner for lower powered engines.

VW 7 speed DSG

Clutches are not designed to slip for any great length of time as they will overheat especially the current DMF types. It's the gearbox that is designed to provide different torque steps to give larger torque at lower engine revs.And of course it's the accelerator that controls engine speed . Anyone that has driven in snow/ ice for any significant period of time knows that that you should drive in the highest possible gear consistent with reasonable speed ( without risk of stalling) for the prevailing conditions. Thus when starting off it's better to use 2nd gear to reduce any excess torque that would cause the driving wheels to slip. I do sympathise with auto box drivers in slippy conditions as often they have little control over the gear change parameters.

One of my pet hates is drivers who stay in the lower gears at low speed and approach hills without enough momentum to get to the top . This causes more traffic jams in snow than I care to remember. If only they could have selected a higher gear to reduce the torque and increased speed sufficiently to gain enough momentum to drive up the hill without the wheels slipping, life would be a lot less painful for the rest of us. Maybe there should be "slippy slopes" and "slippy bends" in the driving test ?

Edited 5 December, 201015 yr by vwcabriolet1971

I give up.

Look at the torque curve of an engine, it rises from idle to a peak at x'000.

In order to physically get the car to move you need so much torque at the wheels to move the weight and avoid stalling.

By starting in a higher gear you will need the accompanying revs to be higher to provide this torque, so the higher the gear the more grief you will give the clutch when setting off dragging it up. The only time I would consider setting off in second is where the car is on a descent and so requiring less torque than that what is given by first gear at idle.

It is what you do after the car is moving, setting off in second does mean you can be more 'hamfisted' with the accelerator and don't need to think about changing gear for a few extra seconds, but anyone with a modecom of snow driving sense........... which unfortunately rules out about 99% of the UK population.

Edited 5 December, 201015 yr by postmanpat

I do sympathise with auto box drivers in slippy conditions as often they have little control over the gear change parameters.

Not required. I've driven autos from a Mini 1000 (the proper Mini) through Fords, Nissans, BMWs and the DSG Leon: As there's a torque converter smoothing the drive in most of them, they'll start away smoothly enough. Just come off the brake slowly, no throttle until it's rolling, then gently away. DSG will do much the same, but you do have the issue that it wants to engage the clutch fully quickly, but another poster said, you really want to minimise clutch slip anyway. When it comes to slowing down, you can use the manual controls, but I've found DSG will drop down the box nicely is you're off the throttle. Some worse than others though.

Erm,

How long is it since I have mentioned my Galaxy with 229,000 miles on the origional clutch, and still going strong.

Including for driving through fields & getting "bogged" on grass verges(both wheels) and towing heavy trailers occassionally.

Merely to attempt to "prove" that I perhaps know a wee bit about proper clutch techniques

I also appreciate the importance of momentum and being in the correct gear.

Been there & got the tee-shirt

**********************

Edit

Spoke to C......... in work this morning, an experienced car mad Ex mechanic who is also a keen caravanner. so I asks him "what gear would you pull away in when it is slippery?, he looked puzzled, I says 1st or 2nd? he looked even more puzzled, then says why ever would you use second? he was completely taken aback by the idea. :p

************************

I got the kindling & matches, anyone got a stout post to tie the witch too?

Edited 6 December, 201015 yr by dieseldogg

Not required. I've driven autos from a Mini 1000 (the proper Mini) through Fords, Nissans, BMWs and the DSG Leon: As there's a torque converter smoothing the drive in most of them, they'll start away smoothly enough. Just come off the brake slowly, no throttle until it's rolling, then gently away. DSG will do much the same, but you do have the issue that it wants to engage the clutch fully quickly, but another poster said, you really want to minimise clutch slip anyway. When it comes to slowing down, you can use the manual controls, but I've found DSG will drop down the box nicely is you're off the throttle. Some worse than others though.

The few auto boxes I've driven in snow for extended periods ( mainly Canada & Sweden) seemed to me to change up too late for really bad snowy conditions so that the engine revs were sometimes rather high to minimise wheels slipping with the high torque.Maybe the modern autos are different than the older autos I drove . Given the choice of gearbox I'd much prefer to drive a manual box in snow. 10 years of driving up & down snow / icy hills in the north west of Scotland teaches you how to drive in "real" slippy conditions

Edited 6 December, 201015 yr by vwcabriolet1971

Erm,

How long is it since I have mentioned my Galaxy with 229,000 miles on the origional clutch, and still going strong.

Including for driving through fields & getting "bogged" on grass verges(both wheels) and towing heavy trailers occassionally.

Merely to attempt to "prove" that I perhaps know a wee bit about proper clutch techniques

I also appreciate the importance of momentum and being in the correct gear.

Been there & got the tee-shirt

**********************

Edit

Spoke to C......... in work this morning, an experienced car mad Ex mechanic who is also a keen caravanner. so I asks him "what gear would you pull away in when it is slippery?, he looked puzzled, I says 1st or 2nd? he looked even more puzzled, then says why ever would you use second? he was completely taken aback by the idea. :p

************************

I got the kindling & matches, anyone got a stout post to tie the witch too?

Driving in muddy slippy conditions is comparatively easy compared to hard packed snow / ice . Try driving down a narrow road with hard packed snow & ice with deep compacted ruts and then try to take a left or right turn off this road .You'll then understand what I mean. I've driven caravans for many years in poor conditions in Scotland but would not consider this in the snow / ice. Todays caravanner has things a lot easier with modern cars (4X4's ?) compared with the older car models . Try towing a 13ft 6 inch caravan with a family of 4 with a 1971 VW type 3 estate ( 54 bhp) up and down Scottish hills !

Todays caravanner has things a lot easier with modern cars (4X4's ?) compared with the older car models . Try towing a 13ft 6 inch caravan with a family of 4 with a 1971 VW type 3 estate ( 54 bhp) up and down Scottish hills !

I remember our family caravanning holidays back in the '70s - started off with a 14' Sprite Musketeer towed by a 1968 Wolseley 16/60. Getting up Shap Fell was hard enough!

I remember our family caravanning holidays back in the '70s - started off with a 14' Sprite Musketeer towed by a 1968 Wolseley 16/60. Getting up Shap Fell was hard enough!

Wow ! 60 bhp !

I took it "for read" that others would understand that I was competent & happy to drive in snow & ice by the way VW Cab.

But I do understand what you mean, VW CAb, honest, I started in an Austin 1100, then did most of my driving during my younger learning years in a Hillman Hunter, a great educator, and seem to remember crossing the mountain going up to & returning from Claudy on solid white packed snow, running on Dunlop SP4's....and oh 70 or 80mph ( young and foolish & perhaps just a tad fortunate forby) no other cars mind and a relitively straight flat road once on the top.

As I said been there & got the tee shirt. Really.

Not that I would claim that we get as bad snow as Scotland.

But I took a wee run up around the Trossacks over the winter of 95 in a Citroen BX estate, again a solid white world,(& -13deg?) so what?

And I have NEVER stayed in because of snow, and as I commented the first time I was beat was Sat night past, cos of those useless Bridgestones I reckon.

For instance I went back into the town this late afternoon, our news bleating that roads were "almost impassable" eh!

I felt oblidged to pass vehicles crawling at 15/20mph, and it was perfectably safe to drive at 45/50.

This in the old Galaxy, on new cheepo tyres. Not a squirm or twitch in doing so either whilst overtaking.

PS

I would not claim to be a good fast driver not having had the experience, or perhaps nerve? , but in poor traction conditions of any sort, bring her on.

Edited 6 December, 201015 yr by dieseldogg

I well remember driving up to the Trossachs in the winter for family days out . Used to take the rear interior heating pipes off our 1961 1200cc Beetle ( 34 bhp !) so we could put the soup cans directly in the heater air flow to warm up the soup . It worked too ! Had to wait a bit for the cans to cool down a bit before we could open them as they were too hot to handle even with gloves ! Driving up hills in snow was no problem but coming down was a different matter - especially when there was a bend at the bottom !

Edited 6 December, 201015 yr by vwcabriolet1971

Yep, rear engine rear wheel drive = excellent traction especially if climbing.

Re the downwiths? I have no idea except I guess the engine at the back was/wanted to be a bit of a pendulum bob?