Difference 103 KW BKD and 100 KW AZV engines?

[ndicki]

I have one of each - a 2004 103 KW (140PS) BKD, and a 2008 100 KW (136PS) AZV engine. The BKD will soon need replacing because of a failing crankshaft bearing, although it has a lot more shunt that the theoretically similar AZV. It MAY have been tweaked before I bought the car, no idea, but it really does give you a good push... In any case, it has a new turbo, and I'm wondering about swopping the turbos over between the two cars, to put the new one on the more recent car. The AZV has done relatively little mileage, but as far as I can tell from its history, mainly in town. That turbo has shown occasional signs of being a bit gummed-up.

My dealer says the two engines are totally different, but a performance place I'm in contact with tells me that in fact the only difference is that the AZV has been restricted electronically, and that the engines are the same mechanically. The AZV is a bit sluggish compared to the BKD, in any case - more than just a couple of HP worth of sluggish. So I'm wondering about fitting the new turbo from the BKD to the AZV, and getting it remapped.

I of course have no idea at all whether it's a good or feasible idea or just more daydreaming on my part... Does anybody out there?

[ndicki]

I have one of each - a 2004 103 KW (140PS) BKD, and a 2008 100 KW (136PS) AZV engine. The BKD will soon need replacing because of a failing crankshaft bearing, although it has a lot more shunt that the theoretically similar AZV. It MAY have been tweaked before I bought the car, no idea, but it really does give you a good push... In any case, it has a new turbo, and I'm wondering about swopping the turbos over between the two cars, to put the new one on the more recent car. The AZV has done relatively little mileage, but as far as I can tell from its history, mainly in town. That turbo has shown occasional signs of being a bit gummed-up.

My dealer says the two engines are totally different, but a performance place I'm in contact with tells me that in fact the only difference is that the AZV has been restricted electronically, and that the engines are the same mechanically. The AZV is a bit sluggish compared to the BKD, in any case - more than just a couple of HP worth of sluggish. So I'm wondering about fitting the new turbo from the BKD to the AZV, and getting it remapped.

I of course have no idea at all whether it's a good or feasible idea or just more daydreaming on my part... Does anybody out there?

Bump! Surely somebody has some idea about the compatibility of these two engine types!

[k.young]

I could be wrong but I think the BKD has a 16valve head and no DPF, the AZV has a 8valve head with a DPF. I would be very surprised if the turbo will swap over as they come complete with manifold attached. Your BKD could very well be mapped but the DPF would choke up the other engine a little.

[Golf-Fiend]

I could be wrong but I think the BKD has a 16valve head and no DPF, the AZV has a 8valve head with a DPF. I would be very surprised if the turbo will swap over as they come complete with manifold attached. Your BKD could very well be mapped but the DPF would choke up the other engine a little.

I think you are wrong here. Both have 16V heads. Both have same capacity. - according to VAG engines on Wiki

I really don't know the answer to this so I'll shut up now. Be interested to find out though. Perhaps it's just a different state of tune for Euro emissions compliance?

[nick74]

I have one of each - a 2004 103 KW (140PS) BKD, and a 2008 100 KW (136PS) AZV engine. The BKD will soon need replacing because of a failing crankshaft bearing, although it has a lot more shunt that the theoretically similar AZV. It MAY have been tweaked before I bought the car, no idea, but it really does give you a good push... In any case, it has a new turbo, and I'm wondering about swopping the turbos over between the two cars, to put the new one on the more recent car. The AZV has done relatively little mileage, but as far as I can tell from its history, mainly in town. That turbo has shown occasional signs of being a bit gummed-up.

My dealer says the two engines are totally different, but a performance place I'm in contact with tells me that in fact the only difference is that the AZV has been restricted electronically, and that the engines are the same mechanically. The AZV is a bit sluggish compared to the BKD, in any case - more than just a couple of HP worth of sluggish. So I'm wondering about fitting the new turbo from the BKD to the AZV, and getting it remapped.

I of course have no idea at all whether it's a good or feasible idea or just more daydreaming on my part... Does anybody out there?

So I guess you're 100% sure this is the cause of your gear selection problems then? It sounded more like a failing DMF to me from what you described in your earlier thread. Wouldn't the play in the crankshaft have to be massive before it started causing clutch drag?

[ndicki]

Well, the BKD and AZV are both 16v, without DPF, that much I do know. But from there on, all I can say is that if VAG have two completely different engines in production to fulfil essentially the same need, then they must be a bit odd... The idea that the AZV is a slightly de-rated BKD makes MUCH more sense to me, especially as they appear to have been sold in only selected markets for local reasons, usually road tax. In Belgium for example, the BKD was selling badly as road tax goes up steeply once you go over 100 KW, and for the extra 3 KW, the BKD was unsaleable. No idea why they sell the AZV here in France, although it is rated at 7cv compared to 8cv for the BKD, and so is a bit cheaper to tax and insure. Not enough to compromise sales though. Both have the same emissions rating, too, as far as I can see.

As for the crankshaft - well, I've had it pawed over by three different garages, one of which didn't have a clue (a Skoda dealer), and the other two both agreed on the crankshaft. One is an ex-dealer now indy that I've known for years as being good and straight, and the other is the big Skoda dealers that he works with. Big enough not to be interested in fiddling a few Euros' worth of extra work, in any case. Apparently this is a little-pubicised problem that crops up on early BKDs. The DMF is new, replaced at the same time as the clutch... And replacing it didn't solve the problem as we'd expected it to.

Edited 5 October, 2011 by ndicki

[nick74]

I notice Parkers quote some of the later UK-spec FL Octavia 2.0 PDs as being 138 bhp. Not sure if they're even correct on that as Skoda were still calling them 140 until they stopped selling the 2.0 PD last year. If it is correct I wonder if that's a tuned AZV, a detuned BKD, or something different entirely?!

I've never heard of crankshaft end play causing clutch drag before though. I can only assume the clearance between the flywheel and the clutch plate must be unusually small as standard on the BKD for it to make that much difference? If anything, play in the crank usually manifests itself as clutch slip rather than clutch drag as the oil seal on the crank gets chewed up and starts leaking engine oil onto the clutch. I had that on a Peugeot petrol engine some years ago.

[ndicki]

Apparently the risks are low, as the chief mechanic told me he'd had people driving round like that for over a year, and he didn't seem to be pushing me to get it fixed any faster than I wanted to (at E8000 for a rebuilt engine, you can see why - it isn't worth it. I can pick one up from 3rd party sources for about E2500, so with fitting, that IS just about worth the trouble) in any case. That suggests that I'm unlikely to damage the clutch under normal, if careful use. I did ask!

I think the 138 bhp is a 140 PS BKD - the difference being simply a question of measurement used. http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/driver-tools/power-converter 138 bhp is 140 PS or 103 KW. I don't think the AZV was offered for sale in the UK, which is why Parkers don't list it.

[disbloke]

Turbo Technics list the AZV/BKD/BKP as using the same turbo but dependant on vehicle different OE part numbers. Obviously sometimes this might just be because VAG seem to use the same parts but just change the number depending on the model it's fitted to, but sometimes different models are using the same basic part, the garrett GT1749 turbo, but it has a different manifold on a different vehicle.

You may well find that the turbo will bolt straight from one car to the other, with the use of a couple of new parts, gaskets and oil feed pipe maybe. Best way may just be to either ask your trusted garage or give one of the turbo remanufacturers a call. Only reason I mentioned the one I mentioned is because when my BKD turbo died earlier this year they were the company I chose to go through so I had their catalogue to hand

[nick74]

Apparently the risks are low, as the chief mechanic told me he'd had people driving round like that for over a year, and he didn't seem to be pushing me to get it fixed any faster than I wanted to (at E8000 for a rebuilt engine, you can see why - it isn't worth it. I can pick one up from 3rd party sources for about E2500, so with fitting, that IS just about worth the trouble) in any case. That suggests that I'm unlikely to damage the clutch under normal, if careful use. I did ask!

My point was really why does crank bearing wear on these engines particularly cause the clutch to drag, when it doesn't seem to on other engines? Just curious as to what could differ on this clutch/box setup to cause these symptoms? Engines developing crankshaft bearing wear as they age isn't particularly unusual, what is quite unusual is for it to cause clutch drag symptoms as you are experiencing with yours.

[ndicki]

Disbloke - Thanks - that's exactly the kind of info I need! Looks potentially promising, as it steers us away from the "totally different engine" hypothesis my dealer came up with. Good find! I guess there is finally only one way to find out for sure...

http://www.turbomaster.info don't list either engine under Skoda, but under VW, both take the GT1749V. Equally, both can take the GT1749V Model - 724930-0004 subtype. OEM codes seem to differ according to vehicle type and year and this and that...

http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/passenger_cars/volkswagen/

nick74 - valid point, but... search me! All I know is that VAG aren't inclined to talk about it much.

Just stumbled across this - don't laugh! It says for BKD and AZV. Difficult to get it clearer... I think we may be in business.

http://www.amazon.com/Seat-Altea-Turbo-GT1749V-724930-5009S/dp/B004QVM5N4

Edited 6 October, 2011 by ndicki

[disbloke]

Don't think skoda 140bhp was listed as having BKD engine in the catalogue I got but a quick call to them and they confirmed that the turbo was exactly the same on BKD engines regardless of the tin can it'd been bolted in.

Give em a phone call and ask as it may just be that it's just not listed under skoda on their info.

[Tech1e]

From my experience ASV engines were used in earlier cars like the Touran, not seen one in a UK Octavia II all to my knowledge have been BKD.

[ndicki]

From my experience ASV engines were used in earlier cars like the Touran, not seen one in a UK Octavia II all to my knowledge have been BKD.

AZV, not ASV, though you are right. AZV was fitted to Tourans until 2006 IIRC, when the BKD was fitted. My Octy is actually a French market one, so it is the same type as the Belgian one. AZV was introduced on Octys for the Belgian market to react to Belgian legislation which heavily penalises cars over 100KW. The BKD is 103KW, and for 3KW difference, it killed sales dead. There was no reason to change the UK version, so it stayed BKD.

Why this appears not to have been the case for the Touran, though, I really do not see! Corporate logic strikes again...

Edited 8 October, 2011 by ndicki

[ndicki]

Don't think skoda 140bhp was listed as having BKD engine in the catalogue I got but a quick call to them and they confirmed that the turbo was exactly the same on BKD engines regardless of the tin can it'd been bolted in.

Give em a phone call and ask as it may just be that it's just not listed under skoda on their info.

Brilliant news! Thanks - I found similar into by going through VW rather than Skoda. I think it's a go...