DPF's

[stevensmith91]

Can anyone tell me if my 59 plate 1.9 Tdi Fabia Sport diesel has a Diesel particulate Filter ?

[seboni121]

Can anyone tell me if my 59 plate 1.9 Tdi Fabia Sport diesel has a Diesel particulate Filter ?

Don't think so ? But someone will turn up soon with a definitive answer

[raisbeck]

Can anyone tell me if my 59 plate 1.9 Tdi Fabia Sport diesel has a Diesel particulate Filter ?

If you have a DPF symbol that illuminates on your dash display when you turn the ignition on...yes

Otherwise.....no

[pearce_jj]

Might also be able to tell from the oil grade needed, unless VAG just specified low ash content across the board.

[raisbeck]

The big give away is the large can immediately after the turbo on the exhaust with two hoses coming out of it connected to a differential pressure sensor.....

Big box with no pipes/hoses is just a cat

Big box with pipes/hoses its a DPF

[Guest]

Just checked the spec for your model (in a 2008 brochure) and it doesn't show yours as having a DPF. It just shows the Greenline as having one. I don't think any of the 2009 Fabia's had a DPF either, but follow up on Raisbecks clues to be sure.

[stevensmith91]

Thanks Guys for your answers , was pretty sure it doesn't have one but just wanted a second opinion

[seboni121]

Thanks Guys for your answers , was pretty sure it doesn't have one but just wanted a second opinion

how much road tax do you pay?, as this will be lower than non-DPF vehicles my 1.4tdi (no dpf) is £90 per annum,however the my new crdti 105 (with dpf) is only £20 pa , dpf lower your emissions so saving you money although if you drive them like an old lady, DPF gets blocked then you'll have to thrash it to clear the blockage , luckily I don't drive like one so I am OK and still get 60mpg

[raisbeck]

how much road tax do you pay?, as this will be lower than non-DPF vehicles my 1.4tdi (no dpf) is £90 per annum,however the my new crdti 105 (with dpf) is only £20 pa , dpf lower your emissions so saving you money although if you drive them like an old lady, DPF gets blocked then you'll have to thrash it to clear the blockage , luckily I don't drive like one so I am OK and still get 60mpg

My GL1 is lower tax (20) because its CO2 emissions are lower than a standard pd. dpf doesnt figure in the tax calculation. DPF doesnt reduce your CO2 at all. Just stops the diesel particulates. Also reduces nitrogen oxide (NOx)same as any CAT.

Edited 13 November, 2011 by raisbeck

[pearce_jj]

DPF doesnt reduce your CO2 at all. Just stops the diesel particulates. Also reduces nitrogen oxide (NOx)same as any CAT.

My understanding was that it is the EGR that reduces NOx. Could be wrong though

[raisbeck]

My understanding was that it is the EGR that reduces NOx. Could be wrong though

It does reduced NOx. By reducing the available oxygen. CAT reduces it further far as I know.

Some engine Guru will pop up to clarify no doubt. On the GL 1 the EGR closes to provide plenty of oxygen for burning/oxidising fuel and heating the DPF. My MPG actually goes up during regen....very odd but I am not complaining.

Edited 13 November, 2011 by raisbeck

[seboni121]

My GL1 is lower tax (20) because its CO2 emissions are lower than a standard pd. dpf doesnt figure in the tax calculation. DPF doesnt reduce your CO2 at all. Just stops the diesel particulates. Also reduces nitrogen oxide (NOx)same as any CAT.

I understand that the DPF specifically does not lower your road tax, however cars with DPF have lower tax banding ,reason they have lower overall emissions to non DPF or am I not correct ??

[Guest]

Hi Seb, DPF's are on all diesels now, it's the law, and the sole purpose is to reduce particulate matter. Road tax banding is totally separate issue and as you rightly say is down to the amount of CO2 a vehicle produces for a given amount of fuel burned.

[raisbeck]

I understand that the DPF specifically does not lower your road tax, however cars with DPF have lower tax banding ,reason they have lower overall emissions to non DPF or am I not correct ??

It just happens that now DPF is mandatory they are fitted on vehicles that already have emission control inherrent in the design. DPF is just one component of that.

My tax band is solely due to a longer gearbox, aerodynamic tweaks, remapped engine torque and skinny wheels. Pumps out less CO2 because of it.

My car would be more efficient without the DPF and would be in the same tax band. Hard to sell a so called 'green' car if its smoking.......hence the DPF.

[seboni121]

It just happens that now DPF is mandatory they are fitted on vehicles that already have emission control inherrent in the design. DPF is just one component of that.

My tax band is solely due to a longer gearbox, aerodynamic tweaks, remapped engine torque and skinny wheels. Pumps out less CO2 because of it.

My car would be more efficient without the DPF and would be in the same tax band. Hard to sell a so called 'green' car if its smoking.......hence the DPF.

Smokin so the DPF only stops the smoking aspect of a diesel run vehicle?, whats the bloody point ?, about time we came out of the lunatic asylum ( EU) on a serious not though my old octavia 1.9tdi pd engine 90 bhp seemed to give a better drive and fuel economy to any other car ive ever owned, are we going back in time here?, seems to be no logic with the DPF system in real life these new diesels are no more economical than cars running 15yr ago rant over for now

[raisbeck]

Smokin so the DPF only stops the smoking aspect of a diesel run vehicle?, whats the bloody point ?, about time we came out of the lunatic asylum ( EU) on a serious not though my old octavia 1.9tdi pd engine 90 bhp seemed to give a better drive and fuel economy to any other car ive ever owned, are we going back in time here?, seems to be no logic with the DPF system in real life these new diesels are no more economical than cars running 15yr ago rant over for now

It stops smoke which is the particulates the EU insist cause health issues. Its not the visual aspect they do it for.

You can reduce smoke by having more oxygen. This gives more NOx which is why we have EGR. Nothing in new diesels really helps efficiency. Its just emissions controls, none of which benefits efficiency.

[logiclee]

I understand that the DPF specifically does not lower your road tax, however cars with DPF have lower tax banding ,reason they have lower overall emissions to non DPF or am I not correct ??

Nope not correct.

Clue is in the name DPF Diesel Particulate Filter. The DPF reduces particulates which is a requirement of Euro 4 and 5. Modern diesels have Ultra efficient and accurate fueling systems that also reduce particulate emmissions and CO2.

But the DPF is restrictive, it requires energy to force the exhaust gases through it.

So modern TDi's would be more efficient and produce lower CO2 and could possibly be in a lower tax band without a DPF.

Modern diesels have DPF's to meet Euro5 particulate emmissions.

Euro 6 and Euro 7 will concentrate on toxic gas emmissions, the only way current technology can meet these targets is for Chemical scrubbers. Ford, GM and VAG have all said that the introdcution of this technology will mean diesel will only be financially viable in larger cars.

Cheers

Lee

[seboni121]

Economic for larger cars so it will make the smaller car more expensive ? Or will not be fuel efficient in smaller cars? I am happy with my crtdi 105 I get mid 60's mpg can't see any petrol unit matching this

[pearce_jj]

Economic for larger cars so it will make the smaller car more expensive?

As in there will be no point putting a diesel engine in a small and cheap car. Even with a difference in economy of 65mpg vs 45mpg, at current prices the difference in fuel cost over 45,000 miles is about £1,500. So given the purchase price premium for the derv it's questionable even now.

[blair77]

I reckon DPFs are a ticking timebomb if the cars are used for short distance town driving etc.

[Guest]

On that point concerning why we have DPF's and hopefully not too far off the subject, well this is interesting. As such the DPF isn't something that's designed to stop smoking at the exhaust 'par se', although it will trap much of it if an engine is smoking, but it will clog the DPF very quickly and cause lots of regens. But it was designed to stop the 'micro particulate matter' that is ejected from the exhausts of diesel engined cars. This is the particulate matter that you cannot see. There is a very good reason for that too.

As diesel engines have progressed and become more powerful and efficient, the emissions emitted, even particulate matter, have fallen dramatically. And I mean dramatically. Power outputs have more than doubled and fuel economy has improved beyond recognition on most diesel engines in a very short space of time. Particulate matter however, has changed due to this extra power and efficiency. Instead of diesel engines smoking a whole lot like they used to, they now all have very clean exhausts. My 1422cc PD TDI engine (without DPF) never smokes in any circumstances that I have ever noticed. I've followed my wife whilst she have been driving on numerous occasions and she boots it lots and even after traffic situations and lots of idling, it doesn't put out any visible smoke during driving or at startup. Anyhoo, although this is good you might think, the medics have told us there is a problem with this smaller micro particulate matter.

Unlike the old smoking diesels of past, where the particulate matter ejected from the exhausts was smoke particulate matter, the new smaller invisible stuff floats around in the air unseen for longer and is inhaled by us humans. Once inhaled it stays mostly in the lungs where over time it encourages nasty things to happen to our bodies. Our lungs cannot self clean themselves of this microscopic smaller particulate matter unlike the old larger smokey particulate stuff which although we inhaled, was pretty harmless stuff believe it or not as our lungs got rid of it no problem.

Petrol engines too produce particulate matter, and at the moment this particulate matter seems to be increasing from petrol engines as compression ratios increase. Indeed in the states some Japanese cars emit too much particulate matter to be sold over there so they sell them over here instead. But overall it's less than diesel engines. Watch for lower compression ratios in petrol engine in the future and bigger turbo pressures to compensate to help reduce particulates in petrol engines, and also PPF's (Petrol Particulate Filters). Compared to diesel engines, the particulate matter from petrol engines in much more harmful (more quickly carcinogenic). This is because they are impregnated with the left overs of highly toxic components of modern petrol. How do I know this stuff? Well, I'm not clever. But, I have a bro in law who is a senior town planner. He gets all the latest information relating to traffic, vehicle development, Euro regs, road developments, and medical reports relating to air quality etc etc etc...all the stuff they need to know about when planning roads and building in towns. I'm sad enough to read his offcasts on this sort of stuff. It's very interesting stuff. Now, I'm off to get a life!!

[Guest]

I reckon DPFs are a ticking timebomb if the cars are used for short distance town driving etc.

I don't think we need worry much about DPF's as the are not new technology. They have been around for years without problems (decades on commercials).

[greenstripe]

I reckon DPFs are a ticking timebomb if the cars are used for short distance town driving etc.

I don't think we need worry much about DPF's as the are not new technology. They have been around for years without problems (decades on commercials).

Unfortunately for some people they are - a lot of manufacturers have bolted DPFs on to engines that were never designed to have them causing no end of problems -raising oil levels is a common one. Unfortunately a lot of car dealers don't bother to advise their customers on the suitability of their vehicle. Also a lot of people will just ignore warning signs hoping that they'll go away, something then usually goes wrong and the customer is at fault.

I spoke to a Nissan dealer about their DPFs on the 1.5 Dci Qashqai -he said that the best thing to do was to drive the car for 20 mins down the motorway at 70mph in 4th gear once a week (this car has 6 gears).

VAG seem very secretive about their engine and DPF technology and I have found it very hard to find out much detailed information about either. I assume (and hope) that the Common Rail engines were designed to be run with DPFs

Edited 14 November, 2011 by greenstripe

[Guest]

Hi Greenstripe,

I appreciate you may already know this but...there are several different types of DPF and even newer types in the pipeline. They all work ok but some in my opinion are better than others. I like the VAG type best as there is nothing to do to them to maintain them, unlike Peugeot which requires a DPF fluid to burn it clean and if you run out of this fluid your DPF may be history. The Ford coated type is also very good but not quite as efficient I understand.

When DPF's first started to be fitted to diesel cars back in 2004 (Toyota) I was sceptical as to how well they would last. Same when VAG started to fit them. But actually, with few exceptions they don't seem to give any trouble. My sisters CR1.6 Fabia estate has one and she only does 5-6 miles per day during the week and she has no trouble at all. She hardly gets over 45mph and mostly it's 30mph. However, at weekends she does cover more miles and some of that is on the dual carriage way. Her car is one year old now and she has never had a DPF warning light and never detects a regen. Many of my neighbours have Fabia's with the DPF and all do low mileages. None of them have any problems. Most don't even need to do a special run to burn them clean either.

There is nothing secret about the VAG DPF technology. It's a filter that traps the particulate matter. This is then burned clean from the filter (it's reduced to very very fine ash) and blown harmlessly out the exhaust. If the level of particulate matter in the DPF reaches a certain level where it is too high to be burned away with the heat from normal driving, then some small amount of extra fuel and air is injected into the exhaust to raise the temperature of the DPF. This burns it clean. It's very simple and effective. New common rail engines are designed to be used with DPF's. The ecu monitors the particulate level being passed to the DPF and the estimated and actual amount in the DPF, and takes appropriate action if it needs an extra clean (a regen). The Greenline 1 system is a little less sophisticated than the Greenline 2 but both work very well and don't give any problems. I think sales people put less emphasis on talking about DPF's now than when they first came out as we now know that DPF's are doing much better in the field than everyone thought, plus manufacturers have refined the software that looks after them to a higher level. Oil rise is not new and is still a rare thing actually but yes it can happen especially if the car is used on short runs all the time. But don't worry about your DPF, it'll be fine.

Edited 14 November, 2011 by Estate Man

[logiclee]

Economic for larger cars so it will make the smaller car more expensive ? Or will not be fuel efficient in smaller cars? I am happy with my crtdi 105 I get mid 60's mpg can't see any petrol unit matching this

Yep too expensive. If they are forced down the chemical scrubber route Skoda have said this will add £1000-£1500 on top of the current differential. Looking at Fords new ecoboost petrol that on the 100ps version can do 60mpg and £20 roadtax in the fairly big Focus then you will be needing to do mega miles to justify a £2500 - £3000 premium for diesel.

With the next gen tsi's around the corner and with the possibility of the diesel premium being much more you can see why Skoda boss has said the small diesel may become obsolete.

Cheers

Lee