Hi all,

Some of you may be aware of the problems I've been having with my 2007 (57) PD170 vRS of late.

After I had the injectors replaced under the recall I've been suffering some worrying problems including cold starting issues, increasing oil levels and I'm now on my third turbo.

The car is currently with the dealers for the fifth time since Christmas.

They called me today to say they now think the valve timing is out.

Question is could this be the cause of my problems? Can valve timing allow fuel to mix with the engine oil? Can contaminated oil fail the turbo so quickly? Could low compression cause the cold starting problems?

The car had it's cambelt changed by a Skoda main dealer just before I bought it. Could they have screwed it up?

Surely if the timing was out there would be other more obvious symptoms, rough idle, power loss etc.

Please help, I'm seriously chopping it in for something else as I'm starting to lose faith :'(

It all seems to point to the injectors. I can't see how timing will allow derv and oil to mix :think:

If the seals are leaking, diesel will dilute the oil, this will reduce its lubrication properties and no doubt have a detrimental effect on the turbo as well as any other part of the engine that requires lubrication from the oil (all of it!).

If the timing is out, it may have an impact on starting but it doesn't explain the rising oil levels or the addiction to turbochargers.

You might be getting fuel draining away from the engine. I had a new tandem pump on my PD140 for that reason. I was told there is a check valve that keeps the fuel from draining back to make starting easier. Or it could be caused by leaky injector seals........

can you smell diesel in the oil, if you take the dip stick out and smell it. If there is diesel in the in the oil there must be a badly worn seal or ring. the issue with the belt, the car would run like a bag of nails all the time with no power. if the dealer is still not getting any joy take the car to a diesel specialist.

IMHO when they did the injector change, something has happened that means a seal is either broken or not sealed correctly.

Apart from the tandem pump going, I think that's about the only way to get fuel into the oil.

Well unless the car in injecting so much derv that it's running down the cylinder walls, but you'd notice that in terms of smoke and not wanting to run etc.

I'd be a bit more concerned that if that derv in the oil has killed the turbo 3 times, then how much damage has it done to the bearings in the engine?

Edited 28 February, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

I would agree it seems to be an injector issue,maybe they should replace them again as u could have a faulty one,I had my injectors replaced via a vw/Skoda dealer with none of these issues and I have done 1500km since they were done. I take it ur car was fine before u got ur recall done?

If it does turn out to be duff injector seals allowing diesel to dilute the oil I would ask questions about the longevity of the engine as all of the wearing parts have potentially been running with incorrect lubrication. A turbo with its highly strung nature will fail first as lubrication is super critical. Heavier duty parts like bearings etc can tolerate it longer but it will shorten their lifespan considerably.

There is also the separate issue of damage to the catalytic converter and - a longer shot - the DPF.

Crikey, it's not sounding too promising. I keep my cars for life so if they've potentially shortened it's life then I won't be happy, not that I'll ever be able to prove it.

The question is, can incorrect valve timing result in all of the symptoms (increasing oil levels, poor starting (only when the outside temp is near/below freezing) and repeated worn turbo bearings)? I'm not too mechanically minded but I can't see how it could cause fuel to leak into the oil.

As mentioned above this should be their primary concern as the increasing oil level can at least explain the turbo failures, however if the only way fuel can mix with the oil is through a leaky injector or faulty tandem pump why are they checking the timing?

In short - no.

If the valve timing is slightly out (and it will be only SLIGHTLY out or the engine will smash) you'll possibly get poor starting and a slight reduction in power and maybe a dodgy idle now and then.

You can get away with the timing being a little out on a diesel but not much.

But - I really can't see how the timing would equate to the oil level rising. As someone else said, you could have diesel washing down the cylinder walls but I don't think the engine would hardly run.

I'm sticking with the injector seals as this is pretty much the one place where diesel and oil are in very close proximity with the seals being the one thing that stops them mixing.

And they may well be following a pre set diagnostic sequence as set by Skoda. They aren't really allowed to deviate from this - especially where warranty is concerned.

Once they eliminate the timing they will then move on to the next suspect and so on. It would be nice if the timing was the cause but I can't see it myself.

Edited 29 February, 201214 yr by dstev2000

Thanks for the info, it has been very useful and I used a lot of it when I just rang Skoda UK to ask what 'technical support' were thinking (the guy on the service desk at the dealer didn't know).

He opened up my now thick file and said that the injectors have already been checked and found to be sealing OK. The reason they are wanting to now check the timing is that they believe that if the timing is ever so slightly out then it may be causing the injectors to inject fuel into the engine at the wrong time. The diesel can then somehow end up in the engine oil.

He agreed that the contaminated oil is the likely cause of the repeated turbo failures.

He also mentioned that they were also exploring a possible 'low cranking speed'. If the speed is too low this doesn't trigger the injectors therefore interrupting the fuel supply and resulting in the reluctant starting.

When I pressed him on the possible increased wear on the engine internals (after covering over 5,000 miles with contaminated oil) he said that once they find the cause they would analyse the oil and use the results to understand what long term effect it might have had.

Either way he assured me that they were doing all that they can and that they would get back to me ASAP. I'm now into my fifth day in the courtesy car so that's £50 and rising...

It sounds plausible.

The way the PD engines and injectors work would suggest it's possible. If the time that the injectors are triggered is not in time with the actual pistons then there may be too much/too little fuel at the wrong time.

Whatever the cause is they need to sort it and repair any damage done.

If they got the timing out while doing the belt then that is something they need to rectify and put right.

Where does the power come in on the rev range in the car? It has been know for the timing to be slightly out on the PD's and the power suddenly shifs a few hundred rpm up the rev range.

Is it DM keith that's sorting it?

Phil

That's reassuring to know, thanks Phil. It makes me a little happier knowing that they may now be getting closer to diagnosing the issue.

The cambelt was replaced by Simpsons Skoda in Preston just before I bought the car from a local non-franchised dealer so hopefully if the timing is found to be out then this can be attributed back to them. Likewise if the injectors end up being the issue then these were replaced by DM Keith on a recall just after I bought it.

The truth be told I haven't noticed the 'PD punch' arrive any later in the rev range although this could be a very real possibility.

Yes, it is at DM Keith in York (for the fifth time). To be fair the guys there are very polite and I genuinely get the impression they want to fix this as much as me, if nothing else so that I stopping putting so much mileage on their loan cars!

They admitted they themselves don't know what's wrong and I understand from Skoda UK that they are now instructing the dealer what to do...

Fingers crossed.

I know the "punch" should come at about 1800/1900rpm as the turbo fully kicks in.

I think my only real concern as mentioned above would be how all this will have affected the long term life of the car. I would also be pushing for at least an inspection of the new turbo. As you're done a few miles with it the contaminated oil could have drastically shortened its life.

Sounds like they are being reasonable though so hope it's not too much longer!

Phil

Ah they've checked the injectors already, remove that one from the list then

It sounds like SUK are actually on the ball with this one. Nice to hear someone up there actually keeping you informed on a technical level.

What would it be? timing slightly advanced in respect to the camshaft driving the unit injector? injector putting fuel into the combustion chamber before TDC thus allowing some to pass the piston before ignition?

Would the ECU be able to increase the amount of fuel injected to compensate for the loss which would otherwise make it run a little lean perhaps?

Fingers crossed they sort it.

The one month old turbo fitted to the car is already shot. It was the reoccurance of the 'police siren' last week that alerted me to the fact the problems were still present. It was then I checked the oil level and was gutted to see that the £130 quids worth of oil and filter were now also contaminated in addition to the early demise of the £1450 turbo.

I know all turbo's whistle, some more than others but this isn't normal. As I'm on my third one I've become very accustomed to the noise they make! When the two previous turbos were correctly lubricated I couldn't hear them at all, no siren, not even a whistle.

Question is who pays for the fourth turbo and can I expect them to reimburse me the cost of the oil and a filter? I think I'll be asking for written confirmation of their final diagnosis so that any future side effects of the contaminated oil on the engine can be at least in part attributed back to this remedial work.

Thanks to you all, your technical knowledge has certainly allowed me to better understand the issues and put my mind at rest, at least until the next phone call!

Well picked the vRS up on Saturday after leaving it with the dealers for 6 days.

They claimed the valve timing was 'slightly out' and readjusted it.

Drove it home, all seemed the same as before, lumpy start and the turbo was still whistling.

Took it for a 1.5 hour 60-70mph motorway journey this afternoon - average 39 MPG!

This is from 50+ MPG the day I dropped it off. There will be hell on when I ring them in the morning

Took it for a 1.5 hour 60-70mph motorway journey this afternoon - average 39 MPG!

This is from 50+ MPG the day I dropped it off. There will be hell on when I ring them in the morning

Something to consider is that for some reason small tweaks to the timing do seem to cause the MPG calibration on the dash trip computer to change. There was a thread on here a while back with a few people claiming their MPG apparently improved after cambelt changes (on PD140 engines). I found the same but in my case it was merely the MPG readout on the dash that 'improved' ! The calculated brim to brim consumption was exactly the same before and after the belt change. The cambelt change had somehow taken the trip readout from being nearly dead on accurate to being 8% optimistic. All I can think could have caused this is a slight change in the timing when the belt was done.

I wonder if the slight timing adjustment has had the opposite effect and made the readout pessimistic on yours?

Hi just read your post, How much does the oil level rise and over what period of time, and how long do you have to crank the engine when cold before it starts?.

I do hope a new timing belt was put on the car if any tension or adjustment was made to it, You can only tension a belt up once. A timing belt will do its stretch in the first 30 secs of running then thats it, any more after that is a area you don't want to be in.

I wonder if the slight timing adjustment has had the opposite effect and made the readout pessimistic on yours?

I hope you are right. The fuel gauge dropped so fast this afternoon I'll be filling it up in the morning. I even reset the display and it quickly settled back to 39 MPG.

Strangely though even when I drove it quite hard it didn't drop below 39. It seems 39 is its best and worst MPG?

I always manually calculate each fuel fill and it has been consistently 48-55 MPG since I bought it. I should be ready to refill it by Wednesday so will know for sure then after a manual brim to brim calculation...

Hi just read your post, How much does the oil level rise and over what period of time, and how long do you have to crank the engine when cold before it starts?.

Plenty of video's here for you to watch. I took these to prove to Skoda UK that something isn't right. It's the outside air temperature that effects it, the colder it is the longer it takes to start, up to 5 seconds of half starting, chugging and misfiring at it's worst.

http://s717.photobucket.com/albums/ww171/beautilicious-cosmetics/Octavia%20vRS%20Cold%20Starting/

Here is the dipstick just before I dropped it off last week. Cold engine, level ground, dipstick removed, wiped and re-inserted. Oil level about 10mm above MAX. This was three weeks after an oil and filter change by the same dealer.

When I picked it up they told me that if anything the oil level had dropped!?

I do hope a new timing belt was put on the car if any tension or adjustment was made to it, You can only tension a belt up once. A timing belt will do its stretch in the first 30 secs of running then thats it, any more after that is a area you don't want to be in.

Not that I know of, they just told me they had adjusted it. I'll be asking lots of questions in the morning, trust me!

Interesting video, not the worst in terms of cranking time I have come across but not right. Have you only had these symptoms since injector replacement?. I have only come across 2 causes of oil level rising, the tandem pump, but only on the 1.4 tdi engine. On the 2 litre engine I have seen a few cases, most were the seals on the injectors and one case were the injector seals had been replaced but 2 injectors were clearly not fitted straight into the bore in the head, and as a result the head was damaged. On all the occasions the tests for the tandem pump and leak tightness of the head did not show a fault. But replacement of the seals, and in the latter head replacement cured the problem. As for the cam timing? If it was not far enough out to log a Crank/Cam alignment fault then I cannot see how they can claim it has caused the fuel in oil issue. I I was looking at it I would start with fuel filter, is it badly soiled and if so is it oil in the fuel. Then if it is remove injectors, if bore in head is ok refit with new seals and make sure they are straight.

Not that I know of, they just told me they had adjusted it. I'll be asking lots of questions in the morning, trust me!

Sorry forgot to say i was told this by a guy from gates who make the timing belt's for OE and after market. Spoke to a friend about Diesel in the oil and he says get some oil out the engine, get a clear round no edges or shapes glass, half fill with water then add the oil sample into it and leave it to settle and it should split into 3, if there is diesel in the mix or just two if it's oil. He said they had to do this a while ago to show a dealer there was diesel in the oil.

So I logged mine with VCDS just now, what with my post injector recall idling problems. Doesn't make for good reading.

Torsion value of -1.84. I'm not sure what's normal on PD170s but that seems very retarded to me.

Then we have the the injection deviation values (in mg/str)...

Representitive sample of 2 minutes idling observed:

0.96 -0.42 -0.53 0

:(

Time to involve Skoda UK I think.

Those numbers mean nothing to me :S

I'd be interested to know what Skoda UK say though, when my case was opened late last year after my injector change Skoda UK gave me the usual 'we've not had any issues reported' line. Since then there have been several threads on poor iddling, cold starting, rising oil levels, turbo failures, DPF lights etc. all immediately after the injector recall was carried out.

Something somewhere isn't right so Skoda UK must be aware of these issues by now...