Hi again.

Today I bought 10 litres sunflower oil from tesco and with an additional 'coupon' managed to get it for £8 so 80p a litre for fuel seems good to me.

Its my second experiment after the other weeks few litres of WVO.

The trip computer inaccuracy rectified itself once derv was running through it again so I've reset the trip this time to avoid any confusion and to give me a reasonably accurate MPG figure. Its running roughly 50/50 with standard pump derv.

My question though is with regard to duty. I've done loads of reading on this and to be honest, the more I read, the more confused I seem to get! What makes matters worse is the rules change too so some posts are before rule changes iyswim.

So, if I buy sunflower or veggie oil from my supermarket, and do not exceeed 2500 litres use a year (I wish!!!!) then do I need to certify myself as a 'producer', and do I have to pay duty on what I use?

Confused.com

Edited 11 May, 201214 yr by capriman

From memory as long as you're under the threshold and keep accurate records of use then you don't need to register.

Thanks. What would I need for records, just keep the receipts for the oil purchased at the supermarket? With such a high threshold, it would seem they are not that bothered really as few people would exceed it even if they ran 100% svo all year round.

Back in the old days people registered, produced 1ltr and sent in the paperwork/cheque to annoy them, the response was to increase the limit to it's current level. Receipts are ideal, the odds of anyone ever asking you for them is minimal but it covers you.

Thanks avalon. Just an update. Have purchased some more sunflower oil and have been experimenting with mixes. Its currently running around 75-80% sunflower oil and fires up first touch of the key hot or cold and runs lovely. I have to to say at the dreaded 30mph in 5th gear through villages it doesn't want to 'chug' the way it does using diesel and certainly seems to have more low down pull than it does on diesel.

You may recall my issues with the mpg computer reading woefully using 50.50 waste oil and diesel. With sunflower oil which seems much thinner than rape seed oil, the mpg indicator isnt so far out. After a nice gentle run out pootling along A roads for 100 miles it would usually be indicating around 68mpg, now its more like 62mpg. It still seems to be a reporting error rather than a genuine reduction in MPG though as the trip mileage and fuel guage are suggesting its still easily on target for 550 miles off the tank. I'll try to remember and post up when the tank is actually done.

I've done tons and tons of reading about this on the internet and its sooooo complicated, not helped by the fact engine technology and tax laws change so often! I've read the current HMRC rulings and it seems that provided I chuck the receipts in an envelope so they can be inspected and provided I dont use more than 2500 litres a year that they are not interested. I can live with that.

The one thing that still confuses me though is the difference between sunflower oil and 'veg' oil in practical terms. Sunflower oil seems less viscous and cheaper so why aren't more people just using this in a single tank system as I am, or am I missing something here?

For the record after a nice £6 off £40 spend voucher at the local supermarket, plus my OH's staff discount, 40 litres of sunflower oil cost £30.

Any thoughts or comments gents?

Edited 15 June, 201214 yr by capriman

Out of interest are you running any secondary filtration?

The reason people use vegetable oil and not sunflower oil is that vegetable oil has more energy in it and therefore when it burns more energy is released.

I would be careful using too high concentration of veg oil esepcially in colder months. The reason behind this is that the viscosity is much higher than that of diesel and so not only does this work the fuel pump harder (are these a Bosch or Lucas pump, if the latter then it isn't as strong and should be used with caution on veg oil) but it also causes an excessive ammount of carbon to build up on the injectors.

This is caused by the fuel not being able to vapourise as well as pure diesel and so you get un-burnt oil that basically gets burnt onto to the injectors etc.

I ran a 50/50 mix of veg oil and diesel in my old Peugeot 306 1.9D which is in esscence a similar design/technology to the SDi but with ever so slightly higher power and torque. Mine had a Bosch fuel pump fitted which I know is a very strong unit and is proven to cope even on 100% veg oil. The lucas on the other hand has been know to break running on veg oil due to the weaker internals!

Phil

Thanks for the replies.

No, I'm not using any secondary filtration. Do I need to given this is fresh food grade oil direct of the supermarket shelf?

philje123.....interesting remarks about the higher energy output of the veg oil. Our SDI seems fine on sunflower oil and actually seems a little up on power over diesel. Given sunflower oil seems less viscous than veggie oil, if theres no other good reason to switch then I think I'll stick with sunflower oil.

I have assumed the pump to be a bosch but I guess I should actually check!!!! Its a 2003 SDI estate.

Is it worth while running a tank of diesel through it now and again to clear any carbon deposits off or doesn't it work like that?

Appreciate the feedback though, thanks.

The best thing to do is just not go any higher than 75/25 oil/diesel I would say. You are only likely to experience these problems with high concentrations of oil or running neat.

Also make sure you change your fuel filter very soon after initally using veg oil as it cleans all the crud out the tank and lines. You should then change it sooner than the recomended schedule suggests.

Phil

Thanks. I think I'll drop down to roughly 50/50. It runs fine as is so dropping down a bit to allow some margin of safety seems prudent. The missus said she'll run it down now, then fill it with diesel then top to full with oil once the tank gets to half. I guess that should help keep things running clean too.

Its due an oil change actually so I'll replace the fuel filter while I'm at it.

Suggest you takea look at http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_024771&propertyType=document#P13_1512

^{I found this which is interesting. Seems to show sunflower oil isn't less viscous than rapeseed oil. Also interesting is the relatively high cloudpoint of sunflower oil. Perhaps I will limit the sunflower oil use to the warmer months of the year and swtich to veg oil as soon as the weather starts to chill off.}

edit.....the table didnt format well into this post at all so I've removed it. Here is the url.....you'll find the table if you scroll down the page a little.

http://vegburner.co.uk/oils.htm

Edited 15 June, 201214 yr by capriman

Suggest you takea look at http://customs.hmrc....cument#P13_1512

How old is this?

I spent over 2 hours reading the HMRC info last night and it said no duty was due and no registration was required. Firstly it speaks of the duty rates wich need to be paid, but then speaks of exemptions as pasted below. My interpretation of that is that if I produce or use more than 2500 litres then I must register and pay duty, if I use less than 2500 litres, I need to keep my receipts for my oil purchases to show I have not exceeded that allowance should I be asked. Am I incorrect in that interpretation? The page this came from is headed 11 aug 2011 and actually relates to changes made from april 2012 so I assume this is the most up to date info? confused.com

4.2.1 Exempt producers/users

If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:

• any biofuel, or
  
• any other fuel substitute or additive
  

within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with us and account for duty. However, there are simple record keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.

Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.

4.2.4 Can vegetable oil be used or sold as motor fuel free of excise duty?

Vegetable oil (unused and used, processed or unprocessed) that is set aside or intended for use as motor fuel is liable to duty unless the producer is exempt as described in paragraph 4.2.1.

4.9.1 Exempt producers’ records

If you are an exempt producer (as defined in paragraph 4.2.1) you only need to record and keep the following information:

• the date of each supply and/or own use
  
• the amount in standard litres of each supply or own use
  

You should check the amounts produced at the end of each month. If you have produced 2,500 litres or more in the last 12 months, or expect to produce 2,500 litres or more in the next 12 months, you must contact us within 30 days to register your premises as described in paragraph 2.5.

Well I plucked up the courage and just phoned the HMRC excise helpline . Info was clear and concise. I asked him the simple question..........I want to buy a diesel car that will run on sunflower or vegetable oil. My intention is to buy diesel at the pump and buy sunflower oil from a supermarket and mix them 50/50 in the tank. Do you intend using more than 2500 litres of sunflower a year he asked. No I replied. In that case no duty is payable he said. I said what do I need to do for records, just keep the supermarket receipts. Yes he replied, for 3 years.

I queried on the fact it says on the website that running a fuel substitute would incur duty and he said of course, but only if you become liable by using more than 2500 litres. :sun: :sun: :sun:

Edited 15 June, 201214 yr by capriman

Well I plucked up the courage and just phoned the HMRC excise helpline   . Info was clear and concise. I asked him the simple question..........I want to buy a diesel car that will run on sunflower or vegetable oil. My intention is to buy diesel at the pump and buy sunflower oil from a supermarket and mix them 50/50 in the tank. Do you intend using more than 2500 litres of sunflower a year he asked. No I replied. In that case no duty is payable he said. I said what do I need to do for records, just keep the supermarket receipts. Yes he replied, for 3 years.

I queried on the fact it says on the website that running a fuel substitute would incur duty and he said of course, but only if you become liable by using more than 2500 litres. :sun: :sun: :sun:

Thanks for the feedback. I think HMRC are all over the place on this. A neighbour of mine asked me about running SVO in his Mk4 Golf. I said no problem/changes required upto 40% SVO/60% diesel, but when he called HMRC he was told that because SVO was not 'diesel quality' he would be subject to duty

I'll let him know your news - Thanks