Did a few figures before deciding what to buy.

Cost of on the road price of 170 diesel same as 2.0 petrol, main difference is fuel costs.

Made the following assumptions: cost of petrol and diesel are the same (I know there is a difference but only a few pennies) average petrol 35 mpg average diesel 50 mpg.

Petrol version of car free of VAT so instant saving of £4,100.00

Now at maximum mileage of 9,000 per year, which is what I do, diesel cost 180 gallons, circa £1,160.00 petrol 257 gallons, circa £1,650.00. Therefore diesel would be cheaper by £490.00 per year.

But I have saved £4,100.00 on the initial purchase, so if I use this cost saving against the £490.00 (by using diesel) would mean I have to keep the car for 8 years before the cost of diesel becomes more viable and my money runs out.

Even allowing for a 50 % increase in fuel costs I would need to keep the car for five and a half years to break even.

So I bought petrol.

Have I made the right decision? Is there some gaping flaw in my thinking? Have I had an unknown senior moment?

No, you chose petrol, so you chose the right one

The really obvous thing that you've ignored is residuals. People who say "but it takes $natural years to pay back the cost of a diesel" frequently do this.

The really obvous thing that you've ignored is residuals. People who say "but it takes $natural years to pay back the cost of a diesel" frequently do this.

Beat me to it. Residual value i.e depreciation is the biggest cost of running a car by a long long way. The difference between buying a car with good residuals and bad residuals is thousands and far outways any fuel cost savings. Do some research on 2nd hand values of the car you want in both diesel and petrol variants.

Edited 6 September, 201213 yr by Jockdooshbag

Forgot to say in lats post but consider which car you actually want. No point driving one if you really wanted the other.

I may be wrong but my understanding is that diesel engines are generally simpler and more reliable. Also (this is up for debate, granted) they apparently produce less emissions mile for mile, because you burn less fuel to go the same distance, with the heavier particulates captured by the DPF.

The mpgs used in your calculation are crucial. If the gap (mpg petrol:diesel) used were wider, you'd find the difference getting smaller and smaller. So much depends on your style of driving as well. It would be interesting to see some survey results on how mpgs of the two fuels compare when two driving styles are used. Is it a simple linear relationship (you just burn more fuel as you drive more aggressively) or is there some sort of progression?

Everyone has their opinion but I've no doubt someone somewhere has researched this and has a more scientific answer.

Residuals & Depreciation , trade in values are of no importance if you buy a car to keep. 'A Keeper'

If you buy to drive and enjoy for 5 years & its still in great condition and better than the 'New Versions' in 5 years time & you keep it or pass onto a Family members.

Maybe its time to buy a keeper that suits you, because there is loads of Cr4p Economy stuff coming in the future that can be worse than DPFs etc now.

I wanted a Euro 4 engine in a new car before Euro 5's were all you could get.

I certainly will want to buy a Euro 5 to keep before we can only buy Euro 6's.

(or i can just see what was good in Euro 5's and buy a bargain used one)

Then you can judge once the Euro 6's have run a few years if they are sorted.

Some of these Great Economy Citroen, Peugout, Fiats etc are Electronic Disasters waiting to happen,

or,

They may turn out to last very well for years to come.

Only time tells how good a new car becomes as a Second Hand Car.

3 years have to pass from a car being launched before someone can see how they are after they have run out of Warranty or needed a MOT.

Not Holding my breath on the Up!/CitiGo/Mii, Possibly financial disasters, or maybe Economical wonders, if they are bought as 'A Keeper'.

george

PS, The Diesel Petrol thing used to need thinking on other costs.

Diesel Engines were noisy & needed Oil & filter changes at 3000 miles & then later 6,000 miles.

Diesel was cheaper to buy tho, & so was insurance on diesel cars.

Then You could buy the likes of a Granada Taxi or a Sierra Diesel, Citroen BX, Peuguot 504 or the likes,

to tow a caravan or Trailer.

Small Diesels were doing 70 mpg back in the 80's.

30-20 years has made big differences on the Diesel Petrol debate and the economics of it.

Some of these Great Economy Citroen, Peugout, Fiats etc are Electronic Disasters waiting to happen,

george

Are you arguing that this somehow applies only to diesels, or only to petrols, rather than to both? If so, then you're talking ball****s! Oh and depreciation is always a factor even if you're planning a keeper, because of write-off valuations.

Personally my view is that driving style and types of trips done are the most significant factors in which engine type you'll find more pleasant.

Residuals & Depreciation , trade in values are of no importance if you buy a car to keep. 'A Keeper'

If you buy to drive and enjoy for 5 years & its still in great condition and better than the 'New Versions' in 5 years time & you keep it or pass onto a Family members.

Maybe its time to buy a keeper that suits you, because there is loads of Cr4p Economy stuff coming in the future that can be worse than DPFs etc now.

I wanted a Euro 4 engine in a new car before Euro 5's were all you could get.

I certainly will want to buy a Euro 5 to keep before we can only buy Euro 6's.

Then you can judge once the Euro 6's have run a few years if they are sorted.

Some of these Great Economy Citroen, Peugout, Fiats etc are Electronic Disasters waiting to happen,

or,

They may turn out to last very well for years to come.

Only time tells how good a new car becomes as a Second Hand Car.

3 years have to pass from a car being launched before someone can see how they are after they have run out of Warranty or needed a MOT.

Not Holding my breath on the Up!/CitiGo/Mii, Possibly financial disasters, or maybe Economical wonders, if they are bought as 'A Keeper'.

george

PS, The Diesel Petrol thing used to need thinking on other costs.

Diesel Engines were noisy & needed Oil & filter changes at 3000 miles & then later 6,000 miles.

Diesel was cheaper to buy tho, & so was insurance on diesel cars.

Then You could buy the likes of a Granada Taxi or a Sierra Diesel, Citroen BX, Peuguot 504 or the likes,

to tow a caravan or Trailer.

Small Diesels were doing 70 mpg back in the 80's.

30-20 years has made big differences on the Diesel Petrol debate and the economics of it.

Totally agree. I cant run a car as a keeper unfortunately but this is the way to do it to avoid big costs.

Ken, Ball0cks if you say so.

Difference is i worked in the car trade since 36 years ago, and have traded professionally & privately.

Still own every new car i have bought,

& never lost money on trading used.

Each to their own, & their own opinion.

And just to explain i buy Insurance Write offs and repair and keep or sell on occasions. Bargains and much cheapness is always available, but not if you need to pay someone elses Hourly Rate & its higher than your hourly rate.

george

Ken, Ball0cks if you say so.

Difference is i worked in the car trade since 36 years ago, and have traded professionally & privately.

Still own every new car i have bought,

& never lost money on trading used.

Each to their own, & their own opinion.

And just to explain i buy Insurance Write offs and repair and keep or sell on occasions. Bargains and much cheapness is always available, but not if you need to pay someone elses Hourly Rate & its higher than your hourly rate.

george

How can you still "own every car youve ever bought" if you "sell on occasions"?

Wish i had kept some of my older cars. Nothing worse than regretting selling a car you had previoulsy but unfortunately most people need to sell to afford the next one.

I may be wrong but my understanding is that diesel engines are generally simpler and more reliable.

20 years ago maybe, but these days.. nope!

Because the new ones are private buys, mine or for my mum,

driven and then passed to my children, sisters or nieces and nephews and they come back to me come time.

I then keep them.

The Second hand ones are sold on Occasion, quickly or run a bit first.

My cars still, and the oldest one is a 1999, First new buy a Jimny

then a 2001 Saxo, 2004 Jimny, 2006 Kia, etc there is pattern to the buying of them. I have grown up Children that did crash cars.

george

eg 'Keepers'

Daisy Desire 11 years old & 35,000 miles,

Blue Jimny 8 years old & 24,000 miles

Did a few figures before deciding what to buy.

Cost of on the road price of 170 diesel same as 2.0 petrol, main difference is fuel costs.

Made the following assumptions: cost of petrol and diesel are the same (I know there is a difference but only a few pennies) average petrol 35 mpg average diesel 50 mpg.

Petrol version of car free of VAT so instant saving of £4,100.00

Now at maximum mileage of 9,000 per year, which is what I do, diesel cost 180 gallons, circa £1,160.00 petrol 257 gallons, circa £1,650.00. Therefore diesel would be cheaper by £490.00 per year.

I know you have knowingly left out the difference in cost between petrol and diesel, because it's only pennies.

But with a yearly cost difference of only 5p per litre it adds up to around £40. So it's a noticible amount of the £490.

Also IMO you need to factor in the cost of road tax.

VED on petrols tends to be a bit more if the engines make similar power.

When all is said and done though I'm guessing the final cost difference is only going to be around £10 per week.

For that kind of money I'd buy and run what I prefer to drive.

I may be wrong but my understanding is that diesel engines are generally simpler and more reliable. Also (this is up for debate, granted) they apparently produce less emissions mile for mile, because you burn less fuel to go the same distance, with the heavier particulates captured by the DPF.

IMHO this WAS true until the Euro IV regs came in and introduced DPFs and many manufacturers at the same sort of time put in DMFs.

Not everyone gets problems with these parts but if they do the result almost always seems to be a big bill (out of warranty).

Worries about these bits might well affect residuals on diesels as it seeps into general knowledge.

Petrols at the moment seem to have a little edge on reliability and the bills when they happen are on average smaller.

IMHO this WAS true until the Euro IV regs came in and introduced DPFs and many manufacturers at the same sort of time put in DMFs.

Not everyone gets problems with these parts but if they do the result almost always seems to be a big bill (out of warranty).

Worries about these bits might well affect residuals on diesels as it seeps into general knowledge.

Petrols at the moment seem to have a little edge on reliability and the bills when they happen are on average smaller.

This was kinda my feelings also. Less moving parts = more reliability. Are there less moving parts in a petrol car? Now i think about it is a DPF a moving part? Someone must know, are diesels more complicated? If so more complex generally means more potential reliability issues. This goes for all engineering in principle not just engines.

I have heard the alternative argument however that diesels are less stressed than pertol engines to produce the same power output. Less stress = more reliability.

Preverbial can of worms opened i think.

I don;t think those analogies stand now really. Any modern engine is immensely complex.

A DPF is not a moving part but it is a highly stressed part due to the temperatures it experiences (in order to burn the particles it captures) and it seems to be a definite point of failure on current cars. It is basically a diesel fired self cleaning oven.

Possibly the basics of a diesel engine relative to a petrol engine, higher pressures, denser fuel, dirtier combustion, greater vibration, possibly lead to more failures.

My guess is that diesels at the moment probably are no more or less reliable than petrols but that the bills are bigger when the do go wrong.

Diesel Vs petrol seems to be a pendulum. At the moment we're at the peak of teh swing for diesel and people are starting to turn away due to these issues and the high cost of the fuel. Plus people are driving less due to the price of all fuels, less miles = less reason for a derv.

Give it another 5 years and no doubt derv technology will start to swing it back again, probably as generators in Ampera 'like' hybrids.

The best thing is to check out a fleet website such as this one.

www.fleetnews.co.uk/

Its what my company uses for our cmpany cars.

The figures are based on the P11d price which is basically retail less registration fee.

So any discount you get is a bonus.

You put in the mileage and time period you want to run and then make and model and then check the figures.

It will give you a fairly acurate pence per mile figure and give you the residual price.

Go into Tools and then running costs.

For example my Superb 1.6 TDi Greenline 11 SE.

120,000 over 48 months costs around 27 pence per mile inc fuel and servicing.

Edited 6 September, 201213 yr by ruffday

The repair costs on modern cars are frightening, the only safe way is to always have a car that has a manufacturers warranty on it. I've heard it so many times about how diesel saves you money, that is until you're left with £1000 repair bill to cure a turbo/fuel pump/injector/DPF/mis fuelling or ECU problem, which according to the calculations above wipes out over two years of savings.

Plus when they get to three years old, they have to undergo a test that can possibly damage them.

The repair costs on modern cars are frightening, the only safe way is to always have a car that has a manufacturers warranty on it. I've heard it so many times about how diesel saves you money, that is until you're left with £1000 repair bill to cure a turbo/fuel pump/injector/DPF/mis fuelling or ECU problem, which according to the calculations above wipes out over two years of savings.

Plus when they get to three years old, they have to undergo a test that can possibly damage them.

That's why I change my vehicle before the 3 years

Just have a look today as you go about at how many cars you see on the road with Registrations of around K, L, M, N reg.

or just even X reg 2000/2001.

There will be a mix of Petrol & Diesel engines & if you are in a rural area it might be more Diesels & Petrols if you are in a city.

Lots will be Japanese but amazingly there will be French rubbish that last longer than they are ever given credit for.

The 4x4 diesel imports will be blowing head gaskets and stuff now, but that is because we do not Maintenence them or use the correct Anti freeze often.

The Land Rovers might have their reputation of always breaking and rusting, but they keep on going.

Too many good cars were scrapped during the 'Scrappage Scheme' & a load of slightly newer cr4p stayed on the road.

Whatever, i am pleased that all cars and not made of Chocolate, well they were not, some that are being sold now will never see being

15 years old and still on the go.

george

The Land Rovers might have their reputation of always breaking and rusting, but they keep on going.

george

Hear, Hear!

Was the decision primarily driven by money?

A diesel engine will last a lot longer in terms of mileage and there is the different experiences of driving these engines.

Diesels tend to cost less to service.

Petrols tend to have a cold start splutter.

Diesels generally pull better lower in the rev range etc

Did a few figures before deciding what to buy.

Cost of on the road price of 170 diesel same as 2.0 petrol, main difference is fuel costs.

Made the following assumptions: cost of petrol and diesel are the same (I know there is a difference but only a few pennies) average petrol 35 mpg average diesel 50 mpg.

Petrol version of car free of VAT so instant saving of £4,100.00

Now at maximum mileage of 9,000 per year, which is what I do, diesel cost 180 gallons, circa £1,160.00 petrol 257 gallons, circa £1,650.00. Therefore diesel would be cheaper by £490.00 per year.

But I have saved £4,100.00 on the initial purchase, so if I use this cost saving against the £490.00 (by using diesel) would mean I have to keep the car for 8 years before the cost of diesel becomes more viable and my money runs out.

Even allowing for a 50 % increase in fuel costs I would need to keep the car for five and a half years to break even.

So I bought petrol.

Have I made the right decision? Is there some gaping flaw in my thinking? Have I had an unknown senior moment?

Initial outlay of cash was a consideration with the VAT free offer. But what really sold me to buying the 2.0T FSI was the exhaust pipes on both sides, it really balances the back end. I know it's a bit OCD and my wife's 370z is the same. Sad I know.

Initial outlay of cash was a consideration with the VAT free offer. But what really sold me to buying the 2.0T FSI was the exhaust pipes on both sides, it really balances the back end. I know it's a bit OCD and my wife's 370z is the same. Sad I know.

Nothing wrong with that!