Car wont start

[johannapam1]

Hi all

This morning I went down to Sainsbury's as usual - car started first time no issue and drove perfectly - not even a hiccup.

Came out iof store 1.5 hrs later car would not start or even attempt to start.

Engine turned over no problem but would not fire.

Called Skoda Assist and after a few checks said he thought it was the In Tank Fuel pump not working.

Towed me to Main Dealer where I have left car to be sorted.

Any views on this - car is a 2.5 TDI 2005 with 43k on the clock.

If it is the pump any ideas on cost.

Thanks

[CRC]

I stand to be corrected on this (and there are those on here that know for sure), but I think you'll find that there isn't actually a fuel pump in the tank.

[johannapam1]

Interesting - it was the Skoda Assist (RAC) guy that said this - the Dealer was non committal and said would let me know as soon as they could?

Edited 10 December, 2012 by johannapam1

[freelanderman]

Hi,

A check on Ekta, the parts program, does show a intank pump on the 2.5, cost is £253.01 including vat,. part number is 4B0906087AT Could be a wiring fault to pump or bad connector.

Hope this helps.

Regards

[johannapam1]

Thanks freelanderman - very useful. Not going to be cheap then?

Ohj well I love the car so it is probably worht it - YES it IS worth it.

Will let you know when repaired.

[CRC]

Found it a quote from a "DieselV6" post in an old thread -

Older 2.5 engines do have a lift pump, post-2004 (BDG) do not have one, just bigger pickup.

Even more confusing, eh?

Edited 10 December, 2012 by CRC

[johannapam1]

Mine is post 2004 BDG engine - so as you say CRC interesting?

[freelanderman]

Found it a quote from a "DieselV6" post in an old thread -

Older 2.5 engines do have a lift pump, post-2004 (BDG) do not have one, just bigger pickup.

Even more confusing, eh?

Surprised myself that their is one, but 2005 2.5 diesel does show one in the parts program, another check shows none fitted to 2004 model but fitted to 2005 model..

Regards

Edited 10 December, 2012 by freelanderman

[CRC]

and I see they show one on the EuroCarparts website as well .... maybe there is one in there?

[CRC]

Any news from the dealer?

[johannapam1]

I have an extended warranty with Skoda and Skoda Assist - so I have been loaned a Astra Elite whilst mine is in for repair. NOT impressed at all with the Astra and will be glad to get mine back. Hiowever I went in to Dealer today and they are having problems identifying the cause of my non starting. They were only able to have a quick look at it this afternoon as they were booking a week in advance. They say it will go into the workshop tomorrow so hopefully more news soon. Will keep you posted as I find out.

[CRC]

Thanks. As there's no spark in these, you get the impression that it must be a fuel related problem ... question is, how do you find the problem without cranking the engine and running the risk of starving the VP44 injection pump?

I suppose a tee in the line at the fuel filter with a pressure gauge would confirm it. If the pressure was positive, then there is one, if negative then there isn't.

[johannapam1]

The RAC guy took a pipe off and sprayed something down it. The car started and then cut out after approx 10 secs. He said that proved it was fuel and not electrics problem?

More than that I really dont know. He told the garage this when he delivered my car on the back of his trailer.

[johannapam1]

Well - had Dealer contact me this morning. Problem is the fuel pump.

The part is on back order so will take a few days to come.

Cost of pump £2497 plus VAT plus fitting. OUCH!!!

Am I glad I have the extended warranty - this has been accepted and so will cost me nothing.

Hope to have car back by end of next week.

[freelanderman]

Hi,

Is that two thousand five hundred pounds you have been quoted

Edited 14 December, 2012 by freelanderman

[ah101]

Good god!

I own a 1.9 and I hope it doesn't have this money black hole fitted to it!

[rotodiesel]

The VP44 pump strikes again. I just can't understand why anyone would design (and anyone else would buy) a diesel pump with a stack of flimsy electronics inside it. It's hard to imagine a more hostile environment and consequently the reliability of these pumps is abysmal across the board.

The PD system has no electronics other than replaceable transducers on the engine and the only failure item exclusive to the PD which is not caused by bad maintenance (eg incorrect oil) is the injector wiring loom in the head - £50. PDs with Bosch solenoid injectors will run to starship mileages. Pity about the Siemens version...

I sincerely hope your warranty company pays up as their track record of avoiding expensive claims is not good. Often they do not pay associated costs. Make sure that whoever does the job understands how to time the pump and has the tools, and change the cambelt, idlers and water pump at the same time whilst the front is pulled.

Then sell it.

659.

[CRC]

If it's the VP44, how come the car started and ran when the RAC guy sprayed the "something" down the tube?

[johannapam1]

Dont know about the spraying but the car DID start after that - be it only for 10 secs or so.

A Skoda technician visited the Dealer and agreed the cause and replacement on Thursday within the remit of the extended warranty - so I have been told NO COST to me. Total cost to Skoda is in the region of £4000 fitted I am told.

The Dealer suggested the Cambelt, tensioners and Water Pump change at the same time (even though it is 10 months early) as the front end is down anyway and will save me money in September next year when it is due. This Dealer did the last Cambelt change in 2009 with no issues at all. I am going to ask for the same Technician to do the job this time?

Edited 14 December, 2012 by johannapam1

[rotodiesel]

The RAC technician sprayed ether into the engine intake ("easy start"). This is extremely bad for any diesel engine and will cause rapid big end wear due to detonation. It does not prove anything other than the fact that the engine has compression and that the valve timing is roughly correct. It tells you nothing about the fuel system and so is useless as a diagnostic tool.

I would never ever allow ether to be used on an engine of mine, having seen the bearing shell damage it causes. Reading the fault codes is a far better and less destructive approach.

rotodiesel.

[johannapam1]

Been in to Dealer again today to get some info on new Yeti and Octavia. Deliberated hard on whether to sell the Superb or not.

After being told that my car would be worth £4k in part exchange - I have almost certainly decided to keep the Superb.

The PUMP VP44 is under warranty for 2yrs and I intend to continue with the extended warranty for the next 3yrs if I keep it that long - I think I will take the risk.

I love the car and for the sake of £4k I think it is worth it.

Time will tell.

Also asked who would be doing the Cambelt change etc and told it would all be done by the same Technician that did it in 2009 - good news there.

Will update you as and when - just keep your fingers crossed for me - I have everything crossed.

[rotodiesel]

The costs associated with insuring this VP44 time bomb completely negates any savings from having a diesel engine. Economic madness.

rotodiesel.

[CRC]

Well, obviously I've got one of these as well, and I don't have an extended warranty and every penny would come out of my pocket, so I've been formulating a possible plan of action should the same scenario arise. I have a good friend who's an experienced VW mechanic, so would imagine it would go something like this. (Incidentally, I spoke to him last week and he pretty much confirms that the car does have a lift pump in the tank.)

1. Check for any fault codes with VagCom and take note of those.

2. If nothing shows, rig up a container with a couple of litres of diesel in it. Connect the outlet of the container to the inlet of the VP44, bleed air from the hose. Have the hose from the fuel filter going into the top of the container where I can see it.

3. VP44 now has fuel at inlet and some small head pressure, so safe to attempt to start engine.

4. If engine starts, and no fuel comes from fuel filter then lift pump or filter or low pressure lines at fault. Investigate lift pump and replace if required (£240).

5. If engine refuses to start and fuel flows from filter then VP44 at fault.

6. Remove VP44 and send to rebuild specialist to ascertain problem (Diesel Bob seems to have a pretty good reputation). If electronic module at fault then expect a bill in region of £400, if entire pump needs fixing, then expect bill in region of £700. If all else fails, buy a new pump from Euro Car Parts in region of £1400 (inc Vat).

7. Coding to car aparrently only needs to be done if second hand pump used. If not, I know a mate with full VagCom.

It would be a right nightmare to assume it was the VP44 and then find out that it was the lift pump!!

In the meantime, keep fingers crossed, hope it never happens and keep enjoying the car.

[rotodiesel]

From where you happen to be, that sounds like a good plan. Before you need to, make sure you have the tools and the knowledge to refit and re-time the pump. Remember that the entire timing drive and (especially) the water pump is no bed of roses on this engine. Book a couple of days off work to fix it...

All VP44s need positive fuel pressure to enable the cam ring advance piston to adjust the injection timing. Insufficient lift pump pressure here causes the advance piston to fret in the pump body and write it off - not a very nice failure mode (and not the only one). Don't start a VP44 engine under gravity fuel feed - it needs about 10 PSI.

Best of luck, they don't all fail - but I've seen a hell of a lot, mainly GM.

rotodiesel.

Edited 16 December, 2012 by rotodiesel

[CRC]

Thanks for that advice Roto, if it ever happens, I'd probably modify a pressure garden sprayer (or similar) which should happily take 10 psig.

Would you say that a failure of the lift pump would always result in the failure of the VP44 or would a failure of the lift pump result in the car failing to run before the VP44 had time to self destruct?

Do you happen to know if the fuel inlet pressure at the VP44 is monitored anywhere on the cars diagnostics .... would it know if the lift pump had failed?

My mechanic mate (I helped) did the timing belts and water pump about 18 months ago, so I take your point about the complexity of it all.