Stop/Start, how much difference does it really make?

[MilgeS]

Hi all,

Just wondering the above, with the Greenline II (1.2TDi and 75ps), would it still be better on fuel than the equivalent 1.6 TDi (75ps) without Stop/Start technology?

If so, what percentage are we looking at, official urban figures are 68.9 for the GLII, 55.4 for the 1.6 TDi, rounding up there's a 15mpg difference. What percentage of this do you think will be due to Stop/Start?

Many thanks

[Paul007]

No idea but of the cars I've driven, I'm glad there's been an off switch because it's so bl***y annoying.

[The Plumber]

Driven a Fabia GL II quite extensively as a loan car and not found issue with the stop start, although my good lady didn't like it. However I would not buy one myself due to the wide spaced gearing, which neither of us liked and the skinny 185/60 tyres, which I felt had negative effect road holding; possibly why the GL has standard ESP :wonder:

Of the two engines I prefer the 1.6; more refined, although my only experience of it is in 105ps guise fitted to an Octavia. Mind compared to the 2.0 CR in our Yeti both engines sound and feel agricultural.

Anyway back to the question, as stated above the GL deploys a raft of features to achieve it's higher MPG, so IMHO stop start will only really come into it's own in city driving or regular 'stop start' traffic, mind the DPF's not going to like that to much :no:

Just my take on it anyway,

TP

[MilgeS]

Anyway back to the question, as stated above the GL deploys a raft of features to achieve it's higher MPG, so IMHO stop start will only really come into it's own in city driving or regular 'stop start' traffic, mind the DPF's not going to like that to much :no:

Thanks for the replies so far. It would be used for driving instruction so the stop/start would be used a fair bit, might be a nightmare to teach though as experienced drivers find it strange to get the hang of!

[silver1011]

Tiff Needell did an experiment in a Renault Megane on Fifth Gear recently (series 21, episode 8).

Fast forward to 20 minutes in the see it here...

It works, but you've got to spend most of your time in stop/start traffic to see the benefits.

[bluecar1]

on a 25 mile run to work through traffic in maidstone i would say it save a fair bit of fuel, normal driving without much traffic not much

on a straight through run to work with no traffic i average 65mpg and about 30 minutes (mostly dual / motorway)

on a rush hour run with start stop about 55-57mpg and about 1 hour so i would say yes a fair bit saved on one occassion i has start stop off for some reason (think it was cold) it was about 50ish if i remember right but not a true comparison as conditions were pretty different

the gearing on the GL II is much higher than other cars purely for economy

the 1.2TDi is 3 cylinder and designed with low friction components, i have also seen comment about striaght cut gears in gearbox rather than helical to reduce drive train losses and skinny tyres pumped up to 2.7bar (yep that high) to reduce rolling resistance

real world mpg, average over 10k 61mpg, best mpg on a long run was 88.7 (60 mile run round m25 at rush hour) worst i have seen for a run over 10 miles was about 48mpg, but generally never less than mid 50's

only comments as plumber says the skinny tyres do affect handling, i find in the wet you don't have to throw it to hard at a roundabout for it to understeer, and once you get up into 3rd you notice the lack of grunt if you are trying to get moving quick joining a fast road (but i am used to swmbo's mk1 vrs ), but still very capable

[MilgeS]

Thanks Silver, Great link and shows the difference well, I don't know how the extra 10-12% is calculated though, math isn't great. It's 9mpg better, ten percent of either of the 58mpg without stop/start or 67mpg with stop/start int 9 !!

Bluecar also thank you, I do think I would see a decent benefit from my current Monte average of 45mpg doing 20,000 miles per year, as well as the car being a grand cheaper to buy too.

Thanks again

[bluecar1]

you are doing about same milage as me then,

bear in mind zero road tax, not congestion charge in london(not sure if you need to register for it), cruise, esp and several other options as standard on the GL II

both monte and GL II can now be on variable service (just ask at delivery)

one interesting fact i seem to see some of my best mpg figures on side roads not motorway at constant speed,

also when you lift off or brake gently if the battery needs charging due to stop start draining it then the system lifts the alternator voltage to increase the charge rate above normal even in slow traffic

and unless it is on active regen engine braking is non existent

[MilgeS]

you are doing about same milage as me then,

bear in mind zero road tax, not congestion charge in london(not sure if you need to register for it), cruise, esp and several other options as standard on the GL II

both monte and GL II can now be on variable service (just ask at delivery)

one interesting fact i seem to see some of my best mpg figures on side roads not motorway at constant speed,

also when you lift off or brake gently if the battery needs charging due to stop start draining it then the system lifts the alternator voltage to increase the charge rate above normal even in slow traffic

and unless it is on active regen engine braking is non existent

yes I noticed the extra options that are standard, I have cruise now so I wouldn't need to add that :-)

Regarding motorways, where I live there are no motorways, we only have half a mile of dual carriageway on the whole island!

This is why my mpg is so low, not many places you can get over 50mph, mainly 40mph limits or lower, town driving or narrow country lanes.

EDIT - One other thing, is the engine really that much noisier than the 1.6, reviews tend to mention engine noise?

Edited 22 December, 2012 by MilgeS

[bluecar1]

yes I noticed the extra options that are standard, I have cruise now so I wouldn't need to add that :-)

Regarding motorways, where I live there are no motorways, we only have half a mile of dual carriageway on the whole island!

This is why my mpg is so low, not many places you can get over 50mph, mainly 40mph limits or lower, town driving or narrow country lanes.

you will struggle to ever get into 5th in a GL II as 50mph is about the slowest it will go without nagging to change down into 4th

40 is only about 1100-1200 rpm in 5th and 50 is about 1500 rpm and at those speeds you can't get enough heat in the exhaust to keep the DPF clear

also you will find until you get to about 1500-1600 rpm there is no turbo boost and you will struggle to get more speed and have to change down with the 1.2TDi

that is where you will see a big different, the 1.2 compared to the 1.6 naturally aspirated / non turbo power ratings, i suspect the 1.2 to be in the 40-45bhp range and the 1.6 probably 10-15bhp more, but these are guestimates as VAG don't publish these figures and they don't make SDi version of these engines to compare

[MilgeS]

I struggle in 5th below 50 at the moment to be honest, fine on flat or downhill but any hint of upslope and its a down change to 4th. It annoys me when a pupil gets a minor mark on their test result for not using 5th for Eco driving, the examiners should take into account that not all cars will be able to pull sufficiently in 5th on our roads.

[bluecar1]

you are an instructor?

stop start has one interesting feature for you, if you / pupil stall it and quick enough (you have a second or 2) with the clutch it restarts automatically, just as though you caught it just in time

done this a number of times myself

Edited 22 December, 2012 by bluecar1

[MilgeS]

Ah, handy tip, that could be very useful, saving the handbrake neutral sequence to restart would be a good time saver, not to mention the reduced feeling of panic for a pupil in that situation!!

I've got to decide now whether to go Fabia Green-line, Citigo Green-tech or Fabia Monte Carlo again, its whether or not I go for economy or looks of the Monte really, nothing is ever easy!

[bluecar1]

the 1.0 citigo greentech seems to have about same realworld mpg as the GL II without the DPF regen issues, slightly smaller car, but they do seem to appear to have some common fault with the seat mechanism failing (several reports of it on 3 door) but apart from that not a bad little motor

one thing to note, several people have reported the extra 10PS of power is only available above about 4000 rpm when you look at the power curves for the engines

for your use i think it would be higher on my list than the GL II

choice for me would be looks of the monte (number of schools using them near me in kent) to the cost savings and economy of the citigo greentech

depends on what your pupils would prefer to learn in, there are a couple being used for teaching if you pop over into the citigo forum, might be worth a post to see what their opinions of them are as a learner car

[OzFabia]

Out of curiosity, as it's been many years since I've driven a manual and never a diesel... does the torque in these motors flatter learners' abilities? That is, does it make them less likely to stall the car?

[MilgeS]

the 1.0 citigo greentech seems to have about same realworld mpg as the GL II without the DPF regen issues, slightly smaller car.

for your use i think it would be higher on my list than the GL II

choice for me would be looks of the monte (number of schools using them near me in kent) to the cost savings and economy of the citigo greentech

depends on what your pupils would prefer to learn in

You've hit the nail on the head there, I only had the GL II down as 3rd choice really, hence my thread.

Citigo for me, I'm unsure of going back to a smaller car, the only reason for considering it was economy.

I love the looks of my Monte, I'm the only one using one on the Island and it stands out, although getting one in my desired spec will be difficult in my timescale now, looks like it will be a 105 next time instead of a 75, so higher insurance etc.

I think I'll get Xmas out of the way, keep my fingers crossed the finance deals don't change and seriously think about it in January.

Many thanks for your input, greatly appreciated.

[MilgeS]

Out of curiosity, as it's been many years since I've driven a manual and never a diesel... does the torque in these motors flatter learners' abilities? That is, does it make them less likely to stall the car?

Hi, the diesel engine is more forgiving, I always teach to use gas before finding a biting point so this reduces stalling anyway, not just moving away on the clutch.

I have heard the ECU on modern petrol engines raises the revs as the clutch bites (?) to help avoid stalling, whether or not this is true I don't know, but this is what the diesel does also. I can do manouvres on uphill slopes with no problem just on clutch control, I could do them in my old petrol Pug 207 too, but not with so much ease.

[bluecar1]

the other option you have is if you have a "tame" pupil that would give you an honest opinion let them see a citigo at the dealers (assuming the dealers is close enough)

can always sweeten it with a extra 30 minutes if they would give you an opinion

because at the end of the day they need to like the car as well as you

[MilgeS]

the other option you have is if you have a "tame" pupil that would give you an honest opinion let them see a citigo at the dealers (assuming the dealers is close enough)

can always sweeten it with a extra 30 minutes if they would give you an opinion

because at the end of the day they need to like the car as well as you

Good idea, the dealer is central to the Island so not too far from anywhere really, I'm getting a few pics mocked up with my new graphics on after Xmas and I'll take a couple of selected pupils (who I think might actually care which car they learn) along to the dealers to have a sit in one and get a feel/reaction.

Thanks again

[grecianite]

Does anyone know if cruise control on a Greenline II i efficient when driving A roads/Motorways etc? I know cruise used to be innefficient full stop, but with it as standard on the Greenline, am unsure if this is still the case?