All,

Having seen varying MPG figures reported by owners across most models I wondered is it time to change the current VED system.

Should we keep things as they are

Should we just have 2 VED catagories. 1 that is free, the other a nominal amount to distinguish for congestion charges. Keeping VED would then still have the current check on whether the car was insured and MOT'd at the time it was taxed

Should we abolish VED altogether, if so how would we overcome the above.

Do you have a better idea to replace VED altogether

Bear in mind the government will have to rise similar revenue another way if VED is replaced or changed (possibly so much extra per litre?)

Foreign motorists would also pay more at the pumps towards HMG too

Those that plant their right foot would pay (even) more than those who don't and those who do more miles would pay a fairer price too towards polution and road repairs (don't laugh), while those that drive more miss Daisey would pay less,as they'd polute less.

Thoughts and votes?

Get rid. Put it on fuel and remove an unnecessary part of govt. bureaucracy

The only problem is were already getting our pants pulled down with fuel prices and everybody buying eco buses are paying no road tax so goverment are going to have to start putting even more on it to recoupe money there loosing.

I enjoy my vrs but 250 quid to tax a 12 year old car is a little excessive but i dont want an eco bus i've had a diesel and hated it so just bite my lip and enjoy it while i can before were all forced into hybrid and electric cars because it just gets to expensive to run anything else

Stick it on the price of fuel, then those that use most pay most.

Work out an average mileage, say 8k/year and an average mpg rate say 36mpg for petrol and 60mpg for diesel then use that to work out how much to shove on a litre.

Low mileage & eco will pay little, reps and truckers more.

Also means the influx of non UK cars don't get away from contributing

Get rid. Put it on fuel and remove an unnecessary part of govt. bureaucracy

I always used to think this was the best option.

Look at the total revenue brought in by VED and the simply spread the cost across the total number of litres of fuel sold in the UK.

Avoiding paying becomes much harder, and you then contribute based on your *actual* fuel usage rather than theoretical economy, so a pensioner with a huge engined car doesn't get screwed over, just cause they dare to drive to the shops once a week, but someone doing 30k a year will always pay more. There's an incentive to drive less and have a more efficient car.

Now I'm not so sure, and here's why. Assume for a minute that this system would be roughly neutral for an average driver doing 40 mpg and 12k miles. Instead of paying £140 or so as a lump sum, it's an extra 1p on fuel, and you wouldn't notice the difference or have any obvious incentive to reduce that. By contrast, the annual tax disk *is* something that people really do feel strongly about, and want to minimise. Getting into the 119g or less band means £30 a year and that has a disproportionately large effect on people's car choices.

I'd now be very reluctant to buy a car that didn't get into that band, so even though its just a small part of the total cost of ownership, having that step works for me as a real target.

Agree entirely. But to answer properly the question of whether VED is/should be a "road tax" or simply a cash cow for the treasury needs addressing by government to allow any plan to be implemented correctly and fairly

Work out an average mileage, say 8k/year and an average mpg rate say 36mpg for petrol and 60mpg for diesel then use that to work out how much to shove on a litre.

Low mileage & eco will pay little, reps and truckers more.

if its as simple as VED revnue versus litres fuel sold, it was around 10p a litre last time i bothered to work it out.

Bye bye haulage industry

if its as simple as VED revnue versus litres fuel sold, it was around 10p a litre last time i bothered to work it out.

Bye bye haulage industry

Exactly. It seems like a great idea just to whack the duty up on fuel but in the real world this just means we end up paying more for our groceries and no doubt in the long run end up eating more horse meat

if its as simple as VED revnue versus litres fuel sold, it was around 10p a litre last time i bothered to work it out.

Bye bye haulage industry

Must have rocketed up from the last debate I read last year where it was at most. 2p litre.

Low mileage & eco will pay little, reps and truckers more.

The problem with this simplified scenario can be countered by pointing out that those who keep food on our plates and others in work by driving considerable annual mileages on business (like me) get to pay more, whilst those who contribute little to society by the use of their vehicles for purely personal use (low mileage commuters, mums school taxi, occasional shoppers etc.) pay less.

No guesses for how I've voted.

Must have rocketed up from the last debate I read last year where it was at most. 2p litre.

Don't think so, it's been pretty much 10p for a while.

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2012_complete.pdf

Page 104

VED consistent at £5.8bn

Fuel duties at £27bn at 57.95p per litres = 47 billion litres

I make that 12p

Exactly. It seems like a great idea just to whack the duty up on fuel but in the real world this just means we end up paying more for our groceries and no doubt in the long run end up eating more horse meat

I don't have a problem with prices reflecting reality but it's unfair on UK hauliers competing with foreign operators. See Europe and the CAP if you want to work out what food really costs.

It's meant to be a road tax....to aid maintaining the road surfaces. All cars wear and contribute to damaging these surfaces so there is an angle of discussion to say that all cars should be taxed at the same level.

At the moment it seems to me to be an environmental tax, not a tax to use the roads. Cars that have lower mpg figures will pay more fuel tax.....those who want to want to pay less in fuel will buy a more fuel efficient car...simples.

It's not been called road tax for a very long time.

Even if it was, you cause more wear and tear by driving a bigger vehicle or by driving more, so putting it on fuel would make sense.

if its as simple as VED revnue versus litres fuel sold, it was around 10p a litre last time i bothered to work it out.

Bye bye haulage industry

Good point - if HMG reduced the VED for HGV's and gave some tax allowance on fuel then wouldn't that start to redress the balance against the continental competition?

Good point - if HMG reduced the VED for HGV's and gave some tax allowance on fuel then wouldn't that start to redress the balance against the continental competition?

Exactly. Put it on fuel, then rebate back anything above a certain amount/equating to the ved rate.

The only problem is were already getting our pants pulled down with fuel prices and everybody buying eco buses are paying no road tax so goverment are going to have to start putting even more on it to recoupe money there loosing.

I enjoy my vrs but 250 quid to tax a 12 year old car is a little excessive but i dont want an eco bus i've had a diesel and hated it so just bite my lip and enjoy it while i can before were all forced into hybrid and electric cars because it just gets to expensive to run anything else

Don't worry they'll still find a way to tax you even when everyone is on full electric cars. They'll just change it from CO2 to kWh or battery capacity or mileage or something. Either way you'll still pay pretty much the same whatever you own. They are already looking to change the VED bands because it's been too effective and too many people have bought eco cars so the VED and petrol duty take is going down.

I actually don't think I want VED on fuel. It makes sense but until I get a receipt from the petrol station with the cost broken down by commodity, duty and taxes it just gives the ******s another opportunity to hide their tax behind someone elses bill.

Keeping VED would then still have the current check on whether the car was insured and MOT'd at the time it was taxed

Checks are made in other ways now. MOT via DVLA and insurance via http://www.askmid.com/ (DVLA too I suspect).

Yes I appreciate that mate,

My point (not well made as usual!) is that not every policeman has ANPR or direct access to the databases concerned and though fallible the tax disc proves the car had insurance and an MOT at some time, so at the moment there's a valid reason to keep it in some form IMO as it at least shows the ones who've had neither for ages. I saw a nice friendly chap from VOSA a few weeks ago catching people with no VED, but they couldn't access the insurance and MOT databases because their equipment didn't have type approval so I think it'll be some time before we get to the 'real time electronic' solution :( sooner the better as far as I'm concerned , but that's a different, but interlinked issue that they'd have to solve before getting rid of VED

Thoughts?

The MOT issue is easy. The tax disc becomes an insurance disc, as in most eu countries, and they only issue if there is an MOT.MOT & insurance run concurrently not separately as they can now

Going slightly off topic, the MOT is a joke in its current form.

I say this because my car will be mot'd on the third anniversary as every body else's will, BUT if I compare this to my wife's car which will be three years old two months before the Yeti, her car will have 10,000 miles on when mot'd for the first time, my Yeti will have 130,000 miles on when mot'd for the first time, how can this be right? Maybe the MOT should be every 20k miles?

On the road tax debate, we are now watched every day by ANPR cameras at roundabouts, junctions and on mobile police cars and the like, we do not need a disc as everything links to our number plates, I am dubious about putting the tax on fuel as haulage, Taxi's and even us reps will have to pay more for fuel and therefore the cost to the consumer will go up.

Personally I think the road tax is quite fair except for one thing, when I first taxed a car it was £110 for 12 months, if you only purchased 6 months it was £55, this is not the case anymore, if you choose 6 months you pay 2/3 of the annual tax (or there abouts)

How about everybody pays an increased income tax of 40-50% and then VAT, VED, air tax etc is all abolished?

Benefit claimants get less to keep things fair?

TBH less miles is just as bad as high miles. If you're doing high miles then theres a good chance you'll service correctly and any faults will be picked up and dealt with.

Low mileage cars might not even see a service every 12 months.

Just get rid of VED; it costs more to administer than it raises, and fuel + insurance taxes raise several times more than what Whitehall actually spends on transport (including rail and bus subsidies as well as roads construciton and maintenance).