This may be old news to our colleagues on this site that are heavy motorway users. . . . . .

BBC Radio 4 gave details of a woman driver who pulled into the services at Sandbach and who fell asleep in her car - She'd journied from Ireland landing at Speke ferry terminal.

She woke-up after 4 hours and then eat in the facilities and then drove-off. Two weeks later she got a written demand from Little Chef (The car park owner ) for £90 ! She disputed the charge and eventually got it cancelled, but not before she was advised that Littke Chef had a policy if charging people who stayed over two hours - LC say that the average stay is 20 minutes.

Anybody else had experience of this ?

One wonders what the legality of that is within the licences granted to operators if motorway services by HMG and, further, how does tbis action square with HMG transport advice - "Pull-off the road if you feel tired" ?

I'd like to see them try that on with truckies.

Nick

Edited 8 March, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

Yep I got done at Hopwood Services - went for a meeting, couple of weeks later got a fine through the car leasing company. Had allegedly stayed over the permitted 2 hours without paying. Can't say that I ever noticed the signs.

Most services have been charging HGVs for years - sometimes they offer a free meal with the parking.

I knew about it - usually signs directing you where to pay if staying over 2hrs.

Our local paper had lots of stories like this after the Moto Wetherby Services opened on the A1. People were stopping there in the morning and then again on the way back that evening, and got tickets based on the elapsed time!

Yep I got done at Hopwood Services - went for a meeting, couple of weeks later got a fine through the car leasing company. Had allegedly stayed over the permitted 2 hours without paying. Can't say that I ever noticed the signs.

I remember seeing them springing up over the last few years, but presumably it's similar to the ones at in-town supermarket car parks, etc. I seem to remember that you have to enter into a contract for it to be "enforcable" and so if you didn't see the signs, you could argue that no contract was entered. It is also down to the driver rather than the vehicle owner so it's up to the land owner to do the leg work to prove who was driving that day.

Whether parking limits are a good thing or not is debatable - staying in a services more than 20 minutes is a struggle for me

Chris

Compare and contrast France.

Where there are dedicated sub-areas attached to the larger commercially run service stations, which allow anybody, truckies, caravanners, etc to park-up overnight. Plus the government operated "Aires" which provide, free-of-charge basic overnight parking.

This sort of activity must present a really welcoming face to foreign tourusts and visitors. Surprised that the various motoring lrganisations or tourist authorities haven't taken this up with HMG.

I suppose if they put up nice blue notice boards at ports of entry with the message "Welcome to under-invested, homeless, slave labour, overcharging, cheapscate Britain" it might put people off.

Nick

Edited 8 March, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

staying in a services more than 20 minutes is a struggle for me

Unlike in-town ones, there's nowhere to pop-off too either. I think my longest was 35 mins. In, pee, queue for BK, eat NK, grab bottle of water, out. That was with a long queue for BK too.

I noticed this at motorway service stations too, and I don't really agree with the 2hr limit.

I accept that 2hrs is enough to do everything you want there, have a meal, stretch your legs, maybe play a game, however you get signs on the motorway that you shouldn't drive tired, and to take a break.

I would be fine having a nap in the car, but wouldn't be happy about having to worry about the 2hr parking limit if I had more of a nap than I expected.

I remember seeing them springing up over the last few years, but presumably it's similar to the ones at in-town supermarket car parks, etc. I seem to remember that you have to enter into a contract for it to be "enforcable" and so if you didn't see the signs, you could argue that no contract was entered. It is also down to the driver rather than the vehicle owner so it's up to the land owner to do the leg work to prove who was driving that day.

Agreed and as a private individual I would probably ignore and where necessary dispute. However the lease company simply pay the fine and pass onto us, as a company we are not going to waste time on whether it's legal or not.

I remember seeing them springing up over the last few years, but presumably it's similar to the ones at in-town supermarket car parks, etc. I seem to remember that you have to enter into a contract for it to be "enforcable" and so if you didn't see the signs, you could argue that no contract was entered. It is also down to the driver rather than the vehicle owner so it's up to the land owner to do the leg work to prove who was driving that day.

Whether parking limits are a good thing or not is debatable - staying in a services more than 20 minutes is a struggle for me

Chris

Lady concerned arrived at night. Claimed not to have seen any signs.

£90 for 4 hours reasonable.?

How much does a full-blown motorway pile-up cost in lives and economically ?

Knowledge that drivers will be charged will undermine any advice that the safety authorities including the Police give.

Surely, national transport policy and economic policy override paroqhial commercial concerns of caterers

trying to maximise their return on capital - I doubt if LC's action is in pursuit of some perceived need to ration car oarking spaces . . . or maintain law and order.

Nick

Edited 8 March, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

You dont need to pay it, its just a disputed invoice, they contact the registered keeper whereas the agreement to park is with the driver , since there is no legal obligation for the registered keeper to inform the company who the driver was they cannot pursue the registered keeper for it

The 2-hour (charging) parking policy has been on most motorway services for at least 20 years. I seem to remember this has something to do with the archaic motorway services regulations that are now under review. It's to stop motorway services becoming a destination in their own right.

My company encourages its workers to car share on long journeys and it is S.O.P to meet up at M-way services if convenient, leave one car for the day and take a single car where people need to go.

just saying

The 2-hour (charging) parking policy has been on most motorway services for at least 20 years. I seem to remember this has something to do with the archaic motorway services regulations that are now under review. It's to stop motorway services becoming a destination in their own right.

As usual its HMG conveniently hovering behind the curve and taking on-board the "Bleeding obvious" as a "Lesson learned" - of course everybody else is supposed to solve problems pre-emptively.

Not even Pikeys or New Age Travellers would regard motorway services as "A destination in their own right". Enough said.

Nick

Edited 8 March, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

Not being a frequent motorway user and an even less frequent user of motorservices, I wasn't aware that this was going on.

http://motorwayservi...e.co.uk/Parking

Apparently, the site operators use APNR cameras at the entrance and exits of service areas. I presume that the Highways Agency owns these and then charges the site operators for data supplied to them. If that's the case it would be interesting to know which law gives authority for them to collect and distribute this info and whether there are any safeguards and restrictions- Human Rights and Data Protection come to mind as well as privacy aspects. Would the Highways Agency supply the Operator with an unedited list of all registrations entering/leaving irresoective of overstay status ?

If this is an area of public responsibility, then I take it that FOI enquiries can be lodged - might be useful for a mapped update to in cab GPS, as well as for resolving individual cases.

Seems this practice attracted attention as far back as 2009:-

http://forums.moneys...d.php?t=1892745

Take it as read that all the agencies of law and order will be getting versions of his data by default.

Nick

Edited 8 March, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

Through work we visit lots of sites that have anpr and despite signing in, getting the site to fill in their online forms with vehicle details, we still get them and they won't drop it! Even when our customer, who employs the parking firm gets involved at corporate level!

One parking company the car is white listed so no tickets.

Whilst the regulations have been the same for many years, the attitude of the motorway services and the use of technology has changed.

What happened 20 years ago was a man would tap on your window and tell you to go into the shop and pay for a long stay ticket or move along. There was no ANPR technology and unless the Police were involved, there was no way for them to get the registered keeper's name/address.

It's simple, it's a private car park and the 'fines' (invoices) aren't enforceable or worth pursuing

they just rely on people bending over and paying

Only council and police can give out enforceable fines so it's simple, don't pay and ignore the letters and threat of debt recovery.

The point of the "fine" is that you are financially disadvantaging them by occupying their parking space, but when the car park is huge and there are only a handful of cars then this argument doesn't work.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

According to the document below, some of the ANPRs located on privately owned motiorway service areas do feed their output to public databases which are accessed by the authorities:-

http://www.whatdothe...as_in_petrol_st

Would it be fair to assume that a camera data stream which is originally set-up for purpose collecting data for use by the public authorities only and which presumably had been licensed and registered with the Information Comissioner under the Data Protection Act for a specific public purpose, couldn't without ammending that registration, then add access by the private site operator for the purposes of car park administration and would constitute a breach of the Data Pritection Ac if it did occur.

I would have thought that that, in any event, any license granted to operate an ANPR camera for the maintenance of public (Mainly criminal) databases wouldn't extend tp the administration of a commercial system which imposes civil penalties - would it be a fundamental breach of the pronciple if seoaration of legal process ?

Wiki says that 20 motorway service areas are still owned by the Department of Transport and leased by the Operator. Listed here:-

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090916/text/90916w0022.htmt

So you wouldn't expect them to start charging for overstays.

You'd also expect that the pri ivate cameras in garage forecourts which are being used for purposes other than for the direct benefit of operator or owner of the garage would show notices to that effect.

This ACPO doc (PDF) looks like it gives a good deal of infirmation on the subject:-

http://www.google.co...biw=507&bih=161

And with the Home Secretary proposing to opt-out if the Human Rights Act . . . . .

This could be as big as PPI for lawyers.

Nick

Edited 9 March, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

How much would you say is ‘acceptable’ to stay for over 2hrs? £26?? (this is just for parking)

Ideally £0 for anyone. Don't mind paying for petrol and food !

At the moment, on the basis of earlier legislation which favoured these type of facilities being run as a public good, I presume the DOT licence is for the provision of motorway rest facilities, including catering, loos, and refuel facilities in furtherance of the public good of providing motorway travel. Not for running an off-motorway car park only. Therefore the cost of O & M of the car oarks and perhapsi ncluding the administration of the policing of the car park for the minute proportion of overstayers, should be set against the revenue stream of the main business. Certainly, not extending to employing dubious characters to run some legally unsupported penal civil fine process using data gathered by a possibly legally unsupported process.

Web articles seem to indicate that Government policy on the planning and operating conditions for establishing motorway service areas is undergoing a review with the current government, so all that may change.

Hence Ms Villiers question in opposition back in 2009.

Nick

I got caught at a McDonald's near Oxford for staying over 2 hours - this is despite telling them that three of us had met there for a meeting and were using the free wireless access. At no point did anyone mention a time restriction and the signs were close to non-existent.

These fines are not legally enforceable, just refuse to pay them.

You can actually sue the company that sends the demands for payment for threatening and intimidating behaviour, or something like that.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Assuming the worst, that the operator has to make provision for peak flow up each carriageway of 10,000 cars a hour and that each service area will capture 20% of these, so thats 2,000 cars an hour. Assuming an average stop-over of balf an hour will mean prioviding 1,000 parking soaces. Add 20% contingency/reserve to that, gives 1,200 car oarking spaces. With an average of 15 sq metres per car oarking space that gives 21600 sq metres total car oarking space per carriageway service area (Including 20% circulation). Lets say that gets repaired, re-surfaced and made good, including the signage, lighting, cameras, fire facilities and earthworks every three years at a cost of £50 per square metre (Simple resurfacing costs about £10 a sq metre), including management costs, overheads and profits that's going to give a £ 1,000 per day or £42 an bour. Make a further worst case assumption that the provision for 2,000 cars an hour resolves diwn to 40% of that in the outcome, i.e.800 cars per hour. So the bottom-up cost should be 6 pence per visit per hour !

Even if you double the provision and halve the throuhput again, its still less than the cost of a Mars bar per hour.

Its not an off-motorway car park, and even if it were, charging a market price eould deoend on near full utilisation and an city location - maybe that market pricing rational could be applied in a few areas where the M1, M4, M5 and M11 run, but I eoukdn't have thought it coukd be applied to the majority - just depends hiw much economic and social engineering they wizh to do

Nick