I test drove a 320d Touring, think it was the 'Business' spec (thought it was utterly uninspiring, had enquired about the 330/335 but they 'just thought' I should 'experience a BMW first' 'to get the overall feel'), as well as an Audi S4 Avant the year before (excited the heck out of me but couldn't (or wife couldn't) ultimately live with the insane running costs as a family motor, and thought the 'normal' Audis were overpriced) while I was on the lookout for the next car (diesel VRS on order now), and in both cases, what really put me off was the walking oilslick 'business manager' who came out of his office to 'talk numbers', condescended, and either implied they thought I couldn't afford it and should think about the 1.8 Eco (Audi - the most unpleasant chap I've ever dealt with in cars - and without wishing to sound smug, yes i can afford it thanks very much).

 

The BMW guy even *told* me - 'you can't buy another car and hold your head high and know you're driving round in a brand new BMW'.... And I absolutely hate the 'can we make decision right now?' like it's the equivalent of buying a loaf of bread... Both of them might have had a sale (especially the S4, I was ready to sign without consulting the wife after the test drive) if they'd been really nice guys and had just treated me like a customer... The Audi salesman was on the phone every day the following week pressing me to take the S4, and it gave me a shortlived but great sense of pleasure to tell him 'VW were so accomodating at the weekend I bought a Passat Sport there and then' - 'oh... not quite the performance you wanted from the S4 is it?' - 'no, that's why I bought my mate's 911 aswell'....

 

My friend who works for a dealer thinks it's because they're a flagship dealer and get a lot of chancers test driving fast cars as a hoot, but even so, you just can't tell. My dad had a customer in the 70's who'd inherited a very successful engineering business alongside his brother, but was happy to carry on working a machine as a millionaire, and went after work in his oily overalls with cash, to buy a Rolls Royce from the then dealer in Sheffield... they literally threw him out, not their preferred type of customer, I guess I wasn't Audi's... The thing is I'm 37 and in my opinion, very well turned out, maybe they have the old school opinion on my long mod haircut...

 

All I know is, I'm looking forward to my VRS as it still ticks all the boxes for me and the wife in different ways, the dealer has been brilliant, and I'll not be rolling up tenners to poke down the plughole every time I want a 'spirited' drive. And it's a lot more exciting than the Beemer.

Skoda dealers better than BMW dealers - in my experience yes.

Skoda cars better value than BMW - in  terms of size and equipment per £ - yes.

Skoda better cars to drive than a modern BMW - sorry, but no -not even a vRS.

Edited 4 April, 201412 yr by Timoctav

... I've been into cars for as long as I can remember (i'm 46) and anyone who has ever met me would vouch that I'm a petrolhead and a lover of cars and that cars would be, without a doubt, my highest priority were it not for my kids (in fact my cars were my highest priority before the kids came along!  ) but I have absolutely no desire, or want, for a BMW.  In fact I almost have the exact opposite, and this is despite having driven them.

 

Using terminology suggested by someone else on here they simply do not 'float my boat' in any way shape or form.

 

I find the recent styling a complete mish-mash and ungainly, the interiors bland (if well made), the driving dynamics nothing particular to write home about, standard equipment levels poor and additional equipment overpriced (if advanced - but then personally I don't actually want the majority of the advanced stuff they offer), the dealers stigmatised and aloof and the cars themselves generally overpriced.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh to those of you that love BMW's but that's my own personaly opinion based on experience.  :think:

.

Absolutely agree with every word of this.  I, too, am a lifelong car enthusiast who (in my younger days) also had most of my cars apart and back together so I know exactly how they work (or sometimes don't work!) as well as what they're like to drive over long periods of time and in virtually all kinds of driving conditions.

Nothing really wrong with BMWs, but I have never seen what all the excitement is about.  I find them over-rated and often almost boring.

I also agree with these comments, which put it very well:

"The one thing I admire about BMW is their marketing. They have successfully created an image for their cars that they are more rewarding to drive and better built than their competitors.

 

The only thing in that respect that I do think has been successful is the Efficient Dynamics stuff - in recent times BMWs have been impressively fuel efficient for their size. Otherwise - more style than real substance. Not that there's anything wrong with BMWs, just that the perceived differences are largely illusory nowadays."

_ _ _

I am not stupid enough to pretend that the Skoda Octavia (or even Superb) is perfect, or is the greatest car in the world and I would be willing (and could easily afford) to pay more for a car which was genuinely better.  But BMWs are not sufficiently better, and not in enough ways, for me to seriously consider paying a lot more money for one.

I prefer the plainer look of many AUDIs and their air suspension would genuinely make them more attractive to me, if it were not for their complexity, unreliablility and the stratosphriec cost of fixing their lovely suspension every time it goes wrong.  Quite apart from the hideous running cost, the sheer inconvenience of this would annoy me.

As it is, the Octavia ticks most of my boxes, feels OK to drive and I don't have to worry all the time about some complicated part of it going wrong and costing me the equivalent of a lottery win each time to get it fixed.

At present, I plan to stick with my Octavia 4x4 diesel estate as my "sensible" car - the all-weather, carry-anything workhorse - and have my nimble little MX-5 for fast, furious open-top fun.  Might eventually swap the MX-5 for a 5.0 litre XKR Jaguar convertible when I get too old for a sports car and want a more comfortable and relaxed super-touring car for cruising in the sunshine - or thrashing past Aston Martins etc., most of which are slower, less comfortable and don't handle as well as the Jaguar with its 500+bhp and brilliant adaptive suspension.

Edited 4 April, 201412 yr by Stuarted

Its funny as Ive had some truly great drives in BMW's (so I do appreciate them as drivers cars) but Im not sure if Id want to actually own one. Possibly the only one I would want (and probably enjoyed the most) was a V8 E39 M5 - the best big sports saloon Ive driven to date. 

We looked again last week at both the BMW 330d and a Skoda (not a vRS, admittedly, so not ideal comparison from a spec point of view). As has been said many times, the Skoda wins hands down for practicality and cost, but there is just something about the BMW that keeps pulling me back. The 330d is great to drive, and the engine / box combination is brilliant. The interior with the right spec feels special, but you do pay for it. The Skoda felt just like my Golf, not bad, but not great. Having owned two BMW's in the past, I know they are not perfect, but I just can't fall for the Skoda. Maybe a drive in the vRS will change that.

 

I'll admit that there is a certain amount of my own "can't possbily buy a Skoda", but I do also drive a Nissan, all be it a 350Z.

.

Absolutely agree with every word of this. I, too, am a lifelong car enthusiast who (in my younger days) also had most of my cars apart and back together so I know exactly how they work (or sometimes don't work!) as well as what they're like to drive over long periods of time and in virtually all kinds of driving conditions.

Nothing really wrong with BMWs, but I have never seen what all the excitement is about. I find them over-rated and often almost boring.

I also agree with these comments, which put it very well:

"The one thing I admire about BMW is their marketing. They have successfully created an image for their cars that they are more rewarding to drive and better built than their competitors.

The only thing in that respect that I do think has been successful is the Efficient Dynamics stuff - in recent times BMWs have been impressively fuel efficient for their size. Otherwise - more style than real substance. Not that there's anything wrong with BMWs, just that the perceived differences are largely illusory nowadays."

_ _ _

I am not stupid enough to pretend that the Skoda Octavia (or even Superb) is perfect, or is the greatest car in the world and I would be willing (and could easily afford) to pay more for a car which was genuinely better. But BMWs are not sufficiently better, and not in enough ways, for me to seriously consider paying a lot more money for one.

I prefer the plainer look of many AUDIs and their air suspension would genuinely make them more attractive to me, if it were not for their complexity, unreliablility and the stratosphriec cost of fixing their lovely suspension every time it goes wrong. Quite apart from the hideous running cost, the sheer inconvenience of this would annoy me.

As it is, the Octavia ticks most of my boxes, feels OK to drive and I don't have to worry all the time about some complicated part of it going wrong and costing me the equivalent of a lottery win each time to get it fixed.

At present, I plan to stick with my Octavia 4x4 diesel estate as my "sensible" car - the all-weather, carry-anything workhorse - and have my nimble little MX-5 for fast, furious open-top fun. Might eventually swap the MX-5 for a 5.0 litre XKR Jaguar convertible when I get too old for a sports car and want a more comfortable and relaxed super-touring car for cruising in the sunshine - or thrashing past Aston Martins etc., most of which are slower, less comfortable and don't handle as well as the Jaguar with its 500+bhp and brilliant adaptive suspension.

Agree and disagree in equal measure with this.

Lower rent BM's are quite boring, common and generally over-priced (24k for a 316i ES spec 3 series...honestly??) but the cars in the upper eschellons of their ranges....thinking the bigger engined M Sport, M Performance and full fat M cars are generally fantastic bits of kit and compared to some of the cars they compete with they offer a great mix of every day usability with sports car performance at comparably half decent prices...I guess why cars like the M135i and M3 are so popular....the M135i after all offering nearly all the usable road performance of a 1M in a considerably more usable and cheaper package, once you get past its quirky looks (which I actually do really like) theres not much there to dislike. A 330d xdrive of course is not a sports car but bugger me do they go for something mascerading as a joe-average diesel family car.

Audi engineer a lovely car, out of the big three (BM, Merc and Audi) none better Audi for interiors...they just excel in that area. Also overall build quality is still in their favour. They alao make some quick versions with lovely engines and design detailing but what they dont excel at is making real drivers cars. V Effective but lacking any real soul or drama is probably the best description, there are the odd exception in the old and current RS ranges but they dont hit the nail on the head all that often.

Do agree about Aston Martin, as lovely as a V8/V12 Vantage is, they do seem rather a poor relation to the likes of the XKR-S and F Type V8, which are generally as nice for way less money. Astons are more form over function in my mind nowadays, a status symbol for those with ridiculous sums of money.

Edited 4 April, 201412 yr by pipsyp

Speaking of Aston Martin's, my girlfriend was looking at cars because she thinks the Octavia is too big for her... she really likes the Toyota IQ which is the tiniest thing ever! Anyway it turns out Aston Martin do a car based on the IQ:

 

http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/aston-martin-cygnet/cygnet-gallery

 

Starting at 30k new, talk about silly money for a tiny car! I just had to chuckle when she mentioned it

Speaking of Aston Martin's, my girlfriend was looking at cars because she thinks the Octavia is too big for her... she really likes the Toyota IQ which is the tiniest thing ever! Anyway it turns out Aston Martin do a car based on the IQ:

 

http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/aston-martin-cygnet/cygnet-gallery

 

Starting at 30k new, talk about silly money for a tiny car! I just had to chuckle when she mentioned it

They stopped making them some time ago now.

They stopped making them some time ago now.

 

Last year apparently, they only sold 150 in a year... ouch. Anyway she was looking on autotrader, but the 1.3l IQ's were a lot cheaper and pretty much pocket rockets. Still, I think one big car is enough for now

Speaking of Aston Martin's, my girlfriend was looking at cars because she thinks the Octavia is too big for her... she really likes the Toyota IQ which is the tiniest thing ever! Anyway it turns out Aston Martin do a car based on the IQ:

 

http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/aston-martin-cygnet/cygnet-gallery

 

Starting at 30k new, talk about silly money for a tiny car! I just had to chuckle when she mentioned it

I believe they were built to satisy EU specified manufacturers total emissions limits. Instead of making all their cars more efficient they went for old school grande coupes with high emissions and these things with low or lower emssions to get the average down. I dobt they cared that much how many were sold.

Agree and disagree in equal measure with this.

Lower rent BM's are quite boring, common and generally over-priced (24k for a 316i ES spec 3 series...honestly??) but the cars in the upper eschellons of their ranges....thinking the bigger engined M Sport, M Performance and full fat M cars are generally fantastic bits of kit and compared to some of the cars they compete with they offer a great mix of every day usability with sports car performance at comparably half decent prices...I guess why cars like the M135i and M3 are so popular....the M135i after all offering nearly all the usable road performance of a 1M in a considerably more usable and cheaper package, once you get past its quirky looks (which I actually do really like) theres not much there to dislike. A 330d xdrive of course is not a sports car but bugger me do they go for something mascerading as a joe-average diesel family car.

Audi engineer a lovely car, out of the big three (BM, Merc and Audi) none better Audi for interiors...they just excel in that area. Also overall build quality is still in their favour. They alao make some quick versions with lovely engines and design detailing but what they dont excel at is making real drivers cars. V Effective but lacking any real soul or drama is probably the best description, there are the odd exception in the old and current RS ranges but they dont hit the nail on the head all that often.

Do agree about Aston Martin, as lovely as a V8/V12 Vantage is, they do seem rather a poor relation to the likes of the XKR-S and F Type V8, which are generally as nice for way less money. Astons are more form over function in my mind nowadays, a status symbol for those with ridiculous sums of money.

 

Good post. I back to back tested an R32 and a manual E46 M3 when considering what to have. Both capable cars that were nice to drive with great performance but for me the fundamental difference was that I reckoned with the R32 I would find the cars limits fairly quickly whereas in the M3 the car was far more capable than I was. The difference in top end acceleration was night and day and the steering feedback on the M3 was way better. I liked the idea that I had to improve as a driver to get more out of the vehicle. After 2.5 years I've not reached the M3's limits and may never do so but it's fun trying :-)

 

That's not to say the R32 is not a good car, in many ways it's better than the M3 as I could use it all year round in all sorts of conditions with more confidence and fit more stuff in it but when it came down to it, it wasn't exciting enough to drive.

Do agree about Aston Martin, as lovely as a V8/V12 Vantage is, they do seem rather a poor relation to the likes of the XKR-S and F Type V8, which are generally as nice for way less money. Astons are more form over function in my mind nowadays, a status symbol for those with ridiculous sums of money.

Aston Martin are a small company and simply cannot afford the research and development needed to keep their cars competitive. My ex wife had a brand new V8 S last year, the car of her dreams, and it was an absolute nightmare, broke down three times and taken away, managed around 15mpg (compared with my similar powered 997/S that manages around 27mpg, the car is way too heavy, the ride way to hard, the clutch way too heavy.... She sold it after only four months of ownership and lost a shed load of money. Aston Martin will shortly be switching to AMG power plants which should make a big difference to the engines if nothing else.

At least this X1 that I've got at the moment has the bonnet release on the right, the handbrake on the right and the door cards and dash are as good as in my MK2 Octavia, if not better, unlike the Mk3. If BMW can be bothered, why can't Skoda ?

Over nostalgic view of the mk2

At least this X1 that I've got at the moment has the bonnet release on the right, the handbrake on the right and the door cards and dash are as good as in my MK2 Octavia, if not better, unlike the Mk3. If BMW can be bothered, why can't Skoda ?

The bonnet release is a bit of a PITA on the passenger side I must admit but the handbrake location doesn't bother me at all. If it's any consolation the pre electric handbrake Porsche are situated for left hand drive as well, but again it really isn't an issue for me. The door cars on the latest Mk3 Octavia are thinner as part of weight saving, I suspect rather than a reduction in quality.

nostalgic ? Where you coming from there then ?

nostalgic ? Where you coming from there then ?

I came from a mk 2 VRS and I can't agree with your comments having spent a good few miles in a mk 3 now but its interesting how people's opinion on the same cars differ so much.