skoda forman / favorit starting problem

[Marios]

HI All

I have a Skoda Forman 1994 13 petrol and the safe starter sometimes turns the engine in a slow manner.  This problems happens intermittently.  I have been to various electricians and no one can make out what the problem actually is even since when they remove and re plug the starter this problem does not happen after some time.  can anyone guide me to what the problem is?

[dohnjoe]

what is the safe starter?

how old is your battery and what manufacturer/type?

did you test the battery under load to see if it has enough capacity left?

if battery is in good shape, check the thick red cable going to starter for corrosion.

do a voltage drop test on that cable while cranking.

if all the above are ok, last thing to do is a starter overhaul.

check if the thick copper contacts of main winding are ok

check carbon brushes and the status of collector rings.

check windings for shorts.

[raedalbandak]

Hi,

Is the starter turning slowly at a constant speed or it turns at an intermittent turning speed just like when the car battery is flat?? By the way, have you checked the battery?? an old weak one won't help here.

[Marios]

The battery has been changed as a precaution.  no one can make heads or tails of it

 

I was chancing whether someone has had the same problem

[Marios]

the starter starts turning slowly but the car always starts in the end.  I've had the starter dismantled by various electricians,  the brushes etc. have been replaced. 

 

it was even interchanged with another second hand one and it did the same problem.  The Earths of the car have been cleaned as well.  The next suspect is the distributor,  but the symptoms are not there.  the engine does not miss and it does not look in bad shape.  I just do not want to change it for nothing. 

[Skodle]

Hi, Marios .... my prime suspect would be an intermittently poor contact SOMEWHERE within the heavy current circuit (including the -ve side).

The way to check this out is to do a painstaking series of tests with a voltmeter all around the circuit, under engine-starting load, looking for 'volt drops' (at ~200A you can 'drop' a lot of volts across an even slightly defective connection, meaning that the poor self-starter will 'see' much less than the battery voltage - but ONLY when cranking!).

Were any of your electricians smart enough to do this check, WITH starting current flowing?

PS - favourite trouble spots UNDER LOAD are the +ve battery post connection, cable entries to both battery post connectors, and especially the contacts within the starter solenoid. For a quick check, see if the voltage across the starter itself (NOT at the wire from the battery to the solenoid!) is anywhere near the battery voltage when cranking.

[Marios]

Contacts have already been checked from both sides.  This was done as a precaution although it had been ruled out especially since the starter starts turning slow and after a while it increases its pace to normal.  I was hinted that this is a problem with the timing of the car, however the car feels ok.  there is nothing to indicate bad timing.   The whole starter pack was replaced with another one from another car for a week which was working fine and the same mine.  however mine gave a better hit on the other car than the one that came on my car and the car's owner did not report any problems with it.

 

all the contacts were cleaned and  tested ( the ones coming from the battery, fuse box etc..)

[Marios]

Just to clarify -  mine I was referring to the starter.  my car had the same issues with my friend's starter

[dohnjoe]

if you bet with your life the battery and the starter are 100% functional, you are only left with the cables.

I've seen a thick cable going from battery positive to starter looking perfect on the outside, but inside was corroded and some wires were broken.

the definitive proof is a voltage drop test during slow cranking.

total voltage drop (sum of voltage drops on thick positive and negative cables) should be < 0.5 Volt.

[TeflonTom]

I agree with the above, check the condition of all the thick cables, make sure they are done up tight and the terminals are clean.

[Marios]

I also bet on those.  even cleaned the terminals with a wire brush as a precaution.  the cables deliver the voltage fine.  This is the first thing I have checked.  The thing is I have checked its ignition system from head to toe and nothing is wrong with it. 

 

very mind blistering situation.   Here in Malta it was hinted to me that the next thing to check is the timing as it looks like that is the issue.  The car usually starts fine, or the starter starts turning slow then increases its pace.

 

An electrician told me that if there was something wrong with the power deliver the starter would either die out or it will remain with the same pace.  this confirmed that the wires were ok as checked beforehand. 

 

they have even tested the flow of current with the starter on a bench and in the car,  using different cables, and it was the same.

[dohnjoe]

very mind blistering situation.

not really. it is not the Space Shuttle.

from the electric point of view, it's battery, starter, and cables.

one other thing could be an extraneous mechanical load from intermittent poor lubrication.

I'm thinking at gunk in some oil passages to crankshaft bearings, camshaft, pistons, etc.

[Marios]

Over this weekend I met a person who used to have a Maruti of 1989.  When he heard what the car was doing he told me that the car he had was doing exactly the same thing and that it was a timing related issue and he seemed to know exactly what the car was doing with regards to starting problem.  I am taking the car to someone who works with Skoda agent here in Malta to check the distributor.

[Marios]

The wires positive an negative have all been checked by meters and no one has actually found there is something wrong. 

 

 

The issue is that the car begins turning slow, then at a certain point it turns at normal pace as though it resets itself.

[dohnjoe]

Marius, let's recap.

you complained about a slow starter cranking main issue.

an engine starts up only if a minimal cranking speed is reached.

changing/setting the distributor will never cure the slow starter cranking issue.

they are totally unrelated (unless the distributor mechanism is not lubricated, check the felt under the rotor arm)

I've seen new distributors smashed because the owner didn't know he has to lubricate it prior installation.

in conclusion, setting a different ignition angle, although may help starting the engine faster, will never cure a starter slow cranking speed.

it is your word the starter and battery are fully operational under load.

given that I think you have some mechanical extra friction between starter gear and flywheel or oil pump is faulty and there is poor lubrication at start.

[Skodle]

Marios, no disrespect for you or your electricians, but whilst you have tested extensively - and you mention that starter voltage was the first thing you checked - in none of your posts do you say that you measured it whilst the starter was cranking ..... that is vital, and now I have a confession to make ....

I have a '94 like yours (apparently the last one on the road over here, are there many Formans still going in Malta?) and recently I have been unhappy with the starter cranking speed. So, with the bad weather coming soon, I have now been prompted by your thread - thank you! - to get busy and investigate. In case it helps:

[now here I was going to post an image ... failure ... PhotoB is not an option today, but here's the rest FWIW]

My first test: here the solenoid actuating wire (yellow) has been disconnected and I have clipped in its place a testing (green) wire, to enable me to operate the solenoid by touching its other end to the battery +ve rather than by using the ignition switch. The voltmeter test probes have been nipped under the starter mounting nut on the left and the lower big nut on the solenoid endcap on the right (the upper big nut, which secures the heavy cable from the battery, has been taped over to avoid accidental contact with tools).

The meter read 12,2 V which dropped to 8.0 V during cranking - oho, I have a problem! So, I then proceeded to check the voltage drops all around the heavy current circuit under cranking load, and these were illuminating. (In my case, the biggest volt drop was within the battery itself).

It helps to remember to reconnect the yellow wire after testing, to avoid panic attacks when next you want to start the engine ;-)

If you have done all this and still not found the trouble, and suspect an unusual engine lubrication/friction problem as dohnjoe has mentioned, you might want to use a convenient slope to confirm this, before taking the engine apart!

When you finally solve the problem, do please let us know the story.

[Marios]

dear all

 

thanks for the info.  A month ago I have had the timing chain changed and the problem seem to have solved itself.  It has not done this fault since.  it used to do it in about 2 of 3 starts, but now for some reason the problem seems to have been solved. 

 

I am writing this for someone who might have same problem.

 

 

[Skodle]

Marios, my apologies for this very late reply, and thank you so very much for coming back on the thread to let others know what happened.

I can imagine that a new timing chain might just make starting easier if the old one were so bad as to upset timing. However, your problem as reported was intermittent slow cranking with the starter motor - I'm really puzzled to see how a timing chain replacement might fix this, so:

- Marios, is it possible that, during the timing chain replacement work, wires in the starter motor circuit were disconnected and afterwards reconnected? - perhaps curing a previously-undetected volt-drop problem on the heavy-current circuit?

- Anyone, is it conceivable that a badly-worn timing chain might have the effect of so 'advancing' the ignition as to inhibit starter motor performance?

Thanks again, Marios!

[RicardoM]

Skodle

You are absolutely right. The 'solution' is not related with the problem. To me it is a clear case of deceiving the customer. The mechanic sees that is an easy, 2 minutes fix, 2 pounds job. So he picks a more expensive job then he invents an elucubrated story that ties his expensive (read unnecessary) job with the real problem. Some mechanics become pretty convincing in time. Of course, the customer has to be parallel with mechanics knowledge (or gullible). Why is the client convinced the mechanic is a good guy? Because the problem doesn't show up again! Of course. Because the 'good samaritan' mechanics fixed also the real problem in 2 minutes! I mran the starter cable, corrosion, etc.  Yeah...

[Marios]

I did not go to my mechanic for the starter problem.  I went because the time chain was rattling badly and the car missing randomly, time chain related issues. also it had nearly 60k KMSon it.  here in Malta 60K KMS is a workout since there are no highways. it is like doing them in town driving start stop. 

 

We change the oil every 5k miles not 15k due to the fact that the car is always accelerating through the gears. 

 

the starter had been out several times and battery readings were good through the wires etc. 

 

It was a timing issue since the chain was badly worn in instances, the distributor was too advanced for the car and that would have given the problem out which was getting worse by time. To date the problem has never appeared again.

[RicardoM]

HI All

I have a Skoda Forman 1994 13 petrol and the safe starter sometimes turns the engine in a slow manner.  This problems happens intermittently.  I have been to various electricians and no one can make out what the problem actually is even since when they remove and re plug the starter this problem does not happen after some time.  can anyone guide me to what the problem is?

This is your original post. We still don't know what you ment by the 'safe' starter. But nevertheless, based on your initial description, every advice given by those trying to help you pointed to cables, battery or starter issues, in this order of probability. Yet you still insist it was because of a loose timing chain. Here is an extra bit of information. Four months ago I changed the timing chain on a Felicia that had the factory chain at 187,000 km (!). Yeah, it was loose, you could make two chains from it, the engine ran horribly, but the starter cranked the engine normally.

 

In case you can explain in detail how everybody else was wrong, please share your logic. Something like this: "Because the timing chain was loose and the distributor too advanced .................................. so the starter couldn't spin at normal speed sometimes." Just fill in the blanks.

[Marios]

This is your original post. We still don't know what you ment by the 'safe' starter. But nevertheless, based on your initial description, every advice given by those trying to help you pointed to cables, battery or starter issues, in this order of probability. Yet you still insist it was because of a loose timing chain. Here is an extra bit of information. Four months ago I changed the timing chain on a Felicia that had the factory chain at 187,000 km (!). Yeah, it was loose, you could make two chains from it, the engine ran horribly, but the starter cranked the engine normally. 

 

In case you can explain in detail how everybody else was wrong, please share your logic. Something like this: "Because the timing chain was loose and the distributor too advanced which created a timing issue so the starter couldn't spin at normal speed sometimes." Just fill in the blanks.

 

 

In Malta things wear 3 times as fast as it is accelerating and breaking after few seconds.  this was the same very loose.  it was not the chain alone.  if the distributer had been turned a bit to slow the car down would have resulted in the problem easing.

 

Meters always gave good voltage meters from both ends of the wire

 

we had even taken a different starter with wires from a dismantled car which gave no issues when it was running (about a week earlier) and on mine they cropped up, which is why they were all ruled out starter wires etc.  In the end I got tired of trying to solve the issue that I decided to leave alone and when the car wouldn't start any longer i would take it to be repaired. 

 

tried my starter on another car as well no problems there. it was clear it was another issue not a wires starter or battery one. Battery was new at that time and had even checked it out.  first thing i had changed as the battery i had was quite old (in Malta a battery would rarely last more than 4 years due to short running) it was 3.5 years old.  After changing the battery the problem remained.

 

 

first hint that this was a timing issue came when a guy who had owned a small Maruti (800) I believe came to me when he heard the car starting and he knew what the car was doing and he told me that his started doing the same and that it was a timing issue.  I went to different mechanics who work with Skoda and had this one argued over, saying that the car would start missing which at that time was not or backfiring which it was not doing either.

 

 

After the timing chain symptoms began the timing checked and the car now feels spot on timing wise these problems stopped.

 

i do not believe it was the timing chain alone which gave the symptoms but a combination of the distributor being slightly fast and the chain which was getting long slowed the car down creating a mismatch in the timing of the car.  I could feel the pull was a slightly less than usual and attributed that to the car was getting older.

[RicardoM]

first hint that this was a timing issue came when a guy who had owned a small Maruti (800) I believe came to me when he heard the car starting and he knew what the car was doing and he told me that his started doing the same and that it was a timing issue.

Marios, when you are ill and want to get well, what do you do?

1. accept advice for medication from somebody else who has similar simptoms?
2. go to a doctor, let him diagnose you then go buy medication accordingly?

Same goes with cars. In your case it looks you don't have good enough car 'doctors' on the island...

 

i do not believe it was the timing chain alone which gave the symptoms but a combination of the distributor being slightly fast and the chain which was getting long slowed the car down creating a mismatch in the timing of the car.

That is a more reasonable approach. Yet you have to realize that you said "starter sometimes turns the engine in a slow manner". I am not sure if it is due to bad English translation, but the situation you described could only be attributed to

• not enough juice to starter
• bad starter
• excessive mechanical drag

[Marios]

then kindly explain this

 

battery : same

starter same

mechanical stuff same

 

after timing chain change  - which required timing setting  car working fine

[RicardoM]

Let's see what are we, the readers, confronted with. When a new topic describing a technical issue is posted in this section, we rely only on the initial observations made by the owner of the car. The quality of our answers depends very much on how accurate and complete are those observations. Very often we are confronted with so-so observations, very often the history of the car is not revealed, heck... sometimes we only know that the car is "a Felicia" and we are asked about specific engine issues. Furthermore, we see photos very seldom (or videos for that matter; what's that 'a video' ?!) to aid us in diagnosing the problem. Let's not forget the car is not in front of us to see, hear, smell, feel or taste it. Yet we struggle with those unknowns and sometimes we get lucky finding the right solution.

 

In summary, based only on your inaccurate and incomplete description of the issue, the correct answer is the one you got from several members. I hope you will be at ease with my answer.

Edited 7 December, 2015 by RicardoM