Wheel swap around

[Sixty7]

Hi this has probably been covered before but I thought I'd ask again, I have a monte carlo tdi and was wondering if anyone has swapped around the wheels, I mean put the front wheels on the back and the back on the front just to balance the tread wear on the tyres..?? any info would be great, ours is going in for it's first service tomorrow so I thought I'd ask them to do this  

[brad1.8T]

^{I've done it on a dozen other cars.  It's good practice.  I'd even recommend that when you bring the rears to the front that you swap them to the opposite side (X-rotation).  I'm sure the dealer would disagree with me...}

[Auric Goldfinger]

I think wheels should be swopped back to front on the same side. The wheels will rotate the same way.  Swopping them corner to opposite corner the wheels will then rotate backwards. The tyres get into a wear pattern.

[Guest]

Correct Auric. Some manufacturers do not recommend swapping wheels at all now due to owners confusing wheel rotation. This then becomes dangerous if the owners get it wrong. But not all tyres are marked for rotation but even so, should always remain in the original rotation position due to wear patterns that have developed. If you want to swap always swap front to rear on the same side. I tend to not swap them as you end up having to replace all the tyres at once. I prefer to swap two at a time. 

[littleade]

I've just swapped mine over, but done them as Auric suggests to keep the tyres rotating in the same direction. I normally don't bother and just expect to get twice as long out of the rears compared to the fronts, but I'm not overly keen on the FF continentals so would rather change them out as a set than have contis on the back and something else on the front if I left them as they are and have to change just the fronts in another few thousand miles time

[2ndskoda]

A poster suggested the following -

 

"I've done it on a dozen other cars.  It's good practice.  I'd even recommend that when you bring the rears to the front that you swap them to the opposite side (X-rotation).  I'm sure the dealer would disagree with me..."

 

This is not to be recommended - !!!!!! 

[brad1.8T]

I think wheels should be swopped back to front on the same side. The wheels will rotate the same way.  Swopping them corner to opposite corner the wheels will then rotate backwards. The tyres get into a wear pattern.

 

A poster suggested the following -

 

"I've done it on a dozen other cars.  It's good practice.  I'd even recommend that when you bring the rears to the front that you swap them to the opposite side (X-rotation).  I'm sure the dealer would disagree with me..."

 

This is not to be recommended - !!!!!! 

 

I think you need to explain why not and who doesn't recomend it?

 

Sure, unidirectional tyres should not have the direction of rotation changed because they are designed to rotate in one direction. 

 

Assymetrics have an outside & an inside but this doesn't change when doing swap side-to -side.

 

Changing the direction of rotation will reduce the chance of the tyres getting into a wear pattern.

 

But I probably haven't a clue because I'v only sold a few thousand tyres & done a few thousand wheel alignments in my time.

 

Maybe Michelin have a clue...

http://www.michelinman.com/tires-101/tire-care/tire-maintenance/tire-rotation.page

 

or maybe TireRack have it all wrong because nobody ever sues anyone in the USA

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=43

 

Do what you like.  I'll stick with a Forward Cross every 10,000km and have tyres that wear very evenly.

[2ndskoda]

Brad 1.8T stated -

 

“Sure, unidirectional tyres should not have the direction of rotation changed because they are designed to rotate in one direction.  

Assymetrics have an outside & an inside but this doesn't change when doing swap side-to -side.”

I agree with you wholeheartedly with your above points; however there are other considerations to be made here.

 

1 - Under load, the outer circumference of the tyre is prevented from keeping up with the centre of the wheel because of rolling resistance. Very quickly the tyre takes on a ‘form’ in compliance with this demand. The result is that the load constantly tries to reduce the overall size of the complete tyre, pulling it inwardly. The tyre wall stretches to accommodate this directional load. The same for both sides of course. The materials used today create tyre walls that are far stronger than those experienced in the past, and this developed ‘form’ stays rather than dissipates when (for example) braking occurs. But braking is of course only a small time proportion of the cars use. We do not enjoy the climate that you experience – hence tyres are not so malleable – in fact in cold conditions the tyre walls can become quite brittle. I will readily concede however that the trend toward low profile tyres has reduced the effect that I have described.

 

With these details outlined, think of all the forces and stresses being forcibly reversed – the compressed area now being pulled, and the stretched area now being compressed – in fact we could say that the wheel/tyre is now trying to ‘unwind’ or regain its original circumference, if you see what I mean. All this has to be countered by a stiff (and often brittle when cold) sidewall. You are at the mercy of a multitude of compromise choices of material designated by the manufacturer.

 

2 – Interestingly (and rightly) you quote Michelin tyres as an advocate of tyre rotation. Michelin are/were unique – they elected for many years to use a compound that was both ‘soft’ and very malleable – regrettably in practice this produced an acknowledged weakness in the walls as a result. Superb quiet running tyres with wonderful wear characteristics, but kerb them, and the walls were not as forgiving as their competitors.

There is so much more I could drivel on about – the difference in the effect of lateral forces between front and rear tyres. The differences that are evident between front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars. The effect of flat rear tyre profile versus the ‘rounded’ effect that occurs to the front tyres etc etc.

 

I respect your time and experience with the tyre industry – my original response was not an attempt to shoot you down in flames. I ask in turn that you will accept my 40 years plus in the motor industry. A full apprenticeship, registration as a MOT tester, and a holder of a ministry of transport COPC. In addition (by virtue of my work) a three year period when I spent time at the Avon tyre manufacturing plant in Melksham UK. I hope you will see my reluctance to do cross rotation is for a reason, not just an adopted point of view.

 

Have a good Christmas in Oz

Edited 23 December, 2014 by 2ndskoda

[Guest]

In addition, if you read the owners handbook for many makes of modern car, they do not recommend wheel rotation diagonally, irrespective of type and make of tyres.

Edited 23 December, 2014 by Estate Man

[Sixty7]

Well all sorted now they did it foc ( fyi I didn't cross them over like the other poster commented on) first service done and we're very happy with the standard of service...

[brad1.8T]

Brad 1.8T stated -

 

“Sure, unidirectional tyres should not have the direction of rotation changed because they are designed to rotate in one direction.  

Assymetrics have an outside & an inside but this doesn't change when doing swap side-to -side.”

I agree with you wholeheartedly with your above points; however there are other considerations to be made here.

 

1 - Under load, the outer circumference of the tyre is prevented from keeping up with the centre of the wheel because of rolling resistance. Very quickly the tyre takes on a ‘form’ in compliance with this demand. The result is that the load constantly tries to reduce the overall size of the complete tyre, pulling it inwardly. The tyre wall stretches to accommodate this directional load. The same for both sides of course. The materials used today create tyre walls that are far stronger than those experienced in the past, and this developed ‘form’ stays rather than dissipates when (for example) braking occurs. But braking is of course only a small time proportion of the cars use. We do not enjoy the climate that you experience – hence tyres are not so malleable – in fact in cold conditions the tyre walls can become quite brittle. I will readily concede however that the trend toward low profile tyres has reduced the effect that I have described.

 

With these details outlined, think of all the forces and stresses being forcibly reversed – the compressed area now being pulled, and the stretched area now being compressed – in fact we could say that the wheel/tyre is now trying to ‘unwind’ or regain its original circumference, if you see what I mean. All this has to be countered by a stiff (and often brittle when cold) sidewall. You are at the mercy of a multitude of compromise choices of material designated by the manufacturer.

 

2 – Interestingly (and rightly) you quote Michelin tyres as an advocate of tyre rotation. Michelin are/were unique – they elected for many years to use a compound that was both ‘soft’ and very malleable – regrettably in practice this produced an acknowledged weakness in the walls as a result. Superb quiet running tyres with wonderful wear characteristics, but kerb them, and the walls were not as forgiving as their competitors.

There is so much more I could drivel on about – the difference in the effect of lateral forces between front and rear tyres. The differences that are evident between front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars. The effect of flat rear tyre profile versus the ‘rounded’ effect that occurs to the front tyres etc etc.

 

I respect your time and experience with the tyre industry – my original response was not an attempt to shoot you down in flames. I ask in turn that you will accept my 40 years plus in the motor industry. A full apprenticeship, registration as a MOT tester, and a holder of a ministry of transport COPC. In addition (by virtue of my work) a three year period when I spent time at the Avon tyre manufacturing plant in Melksham UK. I hope you will see my reluctance to do cross rotation is for a reason, not just an adopted point of view.

 

Have a good Christmas in Oz

 

Christmas looks like it will be a stunner this year.  24 degrees at 7.00am as I was driving in for "work" today.  There's been plenty of rain in the last few weeks so hopefully we won't all catch on fire this year.

 

I'll admit to being a Michelin Fanboi but I did quote Tirerack as well and they are a bit less brand focused.

 

I've never had a huge sidewall issue with Michelins but we tend to run higher pressures down here than what they do in the UK - probably because of our wonderful roads :p  and the higher ambient temps.  Maybe the higher pressures protect the sidewall a bit better?

 

I'm fully aware of the tread twist you speak of and the cork-screw affect on the sidewalls.  I actually describe it as the belts & wires getting a "rotational set" in them.  This is why it is imperative that the drive tyres are moved directly backwards to the lazy (non drive) axle.  Some mileage on the lazy axle allows the stresses to relax (it sounds like the tyres are being sent to a day spa) and therefore makes it safe to swap the direction of rotation further down the track.

 

If you can get your customers to even swap front to rear it's better than nothing at all (which is what most people do) but I think Fwd X works even better.

 

PS: Avon tyres - they never seemed any good down here.  Constantly getting tread seperation & belt failure.  Were they particularly unsuited for hot weather in your opinion?