New Felicia pickup owner

[4muddyfeet]

Hello all,

 

I've been lurking around these parts without having much to say since I bought my '08 Octy last year (nothing goes wrong with it and any questions I have have usually been answered in a previous thread), but now I'm going to need your help because I've just picked up a pickup! A '98 1.3 Siemens MPI (68hp) LXi with 68,000 miles for the grand old sum of £240.

 

 

She runs, albeit with a misfire and the common hot starting issue, and from the cab forward it's in immaculate condition saving a dent in the radiator grill - the wings, interior, bonnet, engine bay are just super clean.

 

From cab backwards is a different matter, with a rotten bed and seam at the back near the rear crossmember(?), corroded rear quarter panels at the seam behind the b-pillars (something to do with the hard top), rusted out metal in the bed around the shock mounts (although the actual structural bits are absolutely fine, minor surface rust), and a hatch which crunches when I press on it's plastic cover and which is currently only operating on one hinge do to the other one falling through....

 

It's not in excellent condition, but this is going to be a my new project for when I complete my current vehicle this summer.

 

 

Any hints and tips on bed/hatch/rearquarter repair will be appreciated hugely, and if anybody wants any bits I'm going to make a list of the stuff I don't want like the load liner etc. once I've decided exactly how I'm going to tackle the different areas. 

 

More detailed pics will be coming once I have the time, so I can ask stupid questions and get awesome answers, but first off the bat the hot start and misfire issue. The engine fires up and runs on what sounds like three cylinders, and will continue running until switched off - and then it wont start again for a good while. I am assuming that the crank sensor and spark plugs should be my first port of call. The PO apparently replaced the coil pack (not sure if new or scrappy, he didn't state), and the sparkies in there now are Bosch but look like they have huge gaps, whereas Haynes states I need Champions with 0.8mm gap. Also the crank sensor looks quite fresh, almost standing out against the rest of the lower electronics by being so black rather than being crud coloured. Is it still worth replacing with a new unit to eliminate it from the hot start issue?

 

Thanks for any insight you can shed, and please ask whatever questions you want to.

Edited 17 April, 2016 by 4muddyfeet

[RicardoM]

She runs, albeit with a misfire and the common hot starting issue...

Start with new spark plugs. Forget about Bosch or Champion. Use NGK BKUR5ET-10 (1mm gap).

A compression test on an unknown engine is a must, although I do it before buying a car.

 

What do you know about the common hot starting issue?

[4muddyfeet]

Start with new spark plugs. Forget about Bosch or Champion. Use NGK BKUR5ET-10 (1mm gap).

A compression test on an unknown engine is a must, although I do it before buying a car.

 

What do you know about the common hot starting issue?

 

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

As I said, this is a project car - I don't have a compression tester, and if it's running and idling and driving fine, then that's enough for me to begin with.

 

Before I went to view the car I was made aware of a problem with the engine - once warmed up, the engine will turn but refuse to fire. I Googled, and the issue seems quite prolific on the 1.3, and spreads to the 1.9D also. Considering some of the obscure (in the UK at least) vehicle problems I normally have to Google, anything that produces over three results is a common problem! I focussed on the Briskoda posts about the topic, and the fix that solved the most problems was replacing the crank sensor. After that replacing the lambda sensor (already replaced according to PO), or cleaning the throttle body worked for a small percentage of people too.

[RicardoM]

My advice is to avoid doing statistics on prior issues for other cars. A well maintained and serviced Felicia doesn't have a 'common' problem with the hot start. I call common problems the coolant sensor and the thermostat. But the most common problem is the owner. Negligence, ignorance, laziness, etc. Some don't even bother to read the owner's guide.

 

My last advice is to diagnose the engine with a VAG-COM scanner. I know, you don't have one either. So what will you do? Guess? Buy parts based on statistics? Ask Google? Maybe you should trust more those having some experience in this field. I happen to be one (among many others in this forum section) and I don't know of such common problem that spreads (!) like flu to Diesels too.

 

Note: by common problem I understand a design flaw that leads to a significant number of cars (much bigger than 3) having exactly the same failure.

[4muddyfeet]

Please accept my apologies if my terminology, lack of knowledge about a vehicles ownership history, or Googling of an issue with a sight unseen vehicle prior to purchase has offended you.

 

 

Maybe you should trust more those having some experience in this field. I happen to be one (among many others in this forum section) and I don't know of such common problem that spreads (!) like flu to Diesels too.

 

Is this not what I have done? I'm not even 48hrs into ownership and my first stop in finding out more information on the vehicles issues was creating this thread, which you have so kindly and fully replied to. I will take your advice and pop the car onto the trailer again and get it to a friend that does have VAG-COM, because yes you assumed correctly; I do not have VAG-COM.

[RicardoM]

I'm trying to save you time and money. You'll need the latter mostly to repair the body. As for the compression test, I advised you to do it for two reasons. One, to know the mechanical state of the engine. Two, a low compression on one cylinder may cause a misfire (it's not on top of the list, I admit). But you have a car that you don't know how many tons transported, what the real mileage is, how well has been maintained, etc. I guessed a compression test is not a big deal in the UK. In here car shops charge $5 to do it (10 minutes of work) or we can buy a compression tester online for $20. I think it's money well spent for your piece of mind.

[daverapid]

From what I've read in this thread I would begin with carrying out a compression test [cold engine] and then checking the valve clearances. I suspect that you will find a compression is low on one or more cylinders due to the clearances being tight. If that's the case re-do the compression test after correctly setting the valve clearances. Have a new set of correctly gapped NGK spark plugs to hand, you will already have the old plugs out any way.

 

In my experience modern mechanics forget/don't realise that valve clearances need to be checked/reset during a service on these engines. It's right back to basics and crucial.  

[ninjacj]

Glad you are getting rid of the load liner, that probably caused most of the rust in the load bed to start!

[ninjacj]

The shock mounts may look surface, but has most likely come through from other side. Common rust point. You may want to look at it before this happens:

I had a quarter panel repaired last week, worth doing early as want to save as much as possible as there are no new panels for anything beyond the cab. You are correct it's to do with the hatchback structure underneath that causes the issue, my welder was explaining it to me. Always a compromise building a pickup on a hatchback platform!

[4muddyfeet]

From what I've read in this thread I would begin with carrying out a compression test [cold engine] and then checking the valve clearances. I suspect that you will find a compression is low on one or more cylinders due to the clearances being tight. If that's the case re-do the compression test after correctly setting the valve clearances. Have a new set of correctly gapped NGK spark plugs to hand, you will already have the old plugs out any way.

 

In my experience modern mechanics forget/don't realise that valve clearances need to be checked/reset during a service on these engines. It's right back to basics and crucial.

 

I've ordered a Sealey compression tester which is due for delivery tomorrow, so I'll get straight to it. Many thanks,

[4muddyfeet]

The shock mounts may look surface, but has most likely come through from other side. Common rust point. You may want to look at it before this happens: DSC_0515.JPG

I had a quarter panel repaired last week, worth doing early as want to save as much as possible as there are no new panels for anything beyond the cab. You are correct it's to do with the hatchback structure underneath that causes the issue, my welder was explaining it to me. Always a compromise building a pickup on a hatchback platform!

 

I have some pics here of the strut mount damage, not sure whether you can see enough in them, my barn is pretty dark.

 

 

 

Underneath the bed skin, there is a 6mm steel support which the strut seems to be attached to, and both of them are in fine condition bar surface rust. The bed that surround them on the other hand, that's in really poor order!

[RicardoM]

I've ordered a Sealey compression tester which is due for delivery tomorrow.

Well done! But OMG how much they cost at Sealey... compared to eBay.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOMOTIVE-PETROL-ENGINE-COMPRESSION-TESTER-KIT-VALVE-TIMING-GAUGE-PRO-CYLINDER-/350906166022

[4muddyfeet]

Well done! But OMG how much they cost at Sealey... compared to eBay.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOMOTIVE-PETROL-ENGINE-COMPRESSION-TESTER-KIT-VALVE-TIMING-GAUGE-PRO-CYLINDER-/350906166022

 

The Sealey tester comes well reviewed, and I have another petrol car that it'll be useful on. Buy one tool once etc etc.

[4muddyfeet]

OK, last week I checked the compression and compression in all cylinders is good!

 

Next I pulled the throttle body and cleaned it up, changed the oil from the 5w30(!) that the PO had used to 10w40 semi, changed the spark plugs from the Bosch units to the NGKs, checked and cleaned all electrical connections to sensors, injectors and coil pack, pulled the injectors and cleaned them and checked o-rings. Put everything back together and whaddya know, no misfire and a much better return from revs. The throttle will still 'stick' occasionally at what I would estimate to be 1200-2000 rpms, but a quick blip on the throttle brings it down to normal idle again. I assume that perhaps a more thorough clean of the throttle body may fix this, either that or TPS? The 'hot start' issue still remains, as after switching of the engine after a good 20 minute test run, it immediately refused to start again.

 

I think my next step will be to clean up the MAF sensor as the pipe below it looked a bit grim with dirt, and then... well, that's where I need some input please.

[RicardoM]

Well done so far. A good service of the car is always an improvement.

You're very close from having a very reliable car.

 

...throttle will still 'stick' occasionally at what I would estimate to be 1200-2000 rpms, but a quick blip on the throttle brings it down to normal idle again. I assume that perhaps a more thorough clean of the throttle body may fix this, either that or TPS?

Could be both. You can rule out the TPS having a scratch by using an analogue meter to measure the resistance. Disconnect the TPS connector and measure between pins 6-5 and 6-7 respectively while rotating slowly the throttle valve. The needle of the meter should move smoothly without jumps.

 

The 'hot start' issue still remains, as after switching of the engine after a good 20 minute test run, it immediately refused to start again.

It is tricky to diagnose as you didn't use a VAG-COM scanner to see if any error is stored or if the coolant temperature sensor (ECU side) reads correctly when the engine is warm. Other than CTS I suspect anything that creates a too rich condition or on the contrary, a lack of fuel pressure due to pump or pressure regulator.

[4muddyfeet]

I used the multimeter on the TPS and had constant readings from 1.04 (20k) with seemingly no dead spots. I will try again with a friend because sometimes you need three hands with a multimeter!

I've also cleaned the MAF and it was oil/grime covered so that won't have helped.

[RicardoM]

[4muddyfeet]

RicardoM,

I got the car up to temp and measured 438 across the points. Is it worth measuring when cold as well, or should I just go ahead and replace the CTS?

[RicardoM]

Is it worth measuring when cold as well, or should I just go ahead and replace the CTS?

You can safely replace it. As you can see below, the ECU of your engine thinks the coolant has 70*C when in reality it has 90*C.

 

The resistance values of the thermistor connected to ECU (pins 1-3) should be as follows:

0*C --> 5 - 6,5 kOhm

5*C --> 4 - 5 kOhm

10*C -> 3,25 - 4,5 kOhm

15*C -> 2,75 - 3,5 kOhm

20*C -> 2,25 - 3 kOhm

25*C -> 2 - 2,5 kOhm

30*C -> 1,5 - 2 kOhm

35*C -> 1,25 - 1,75 kOhm

40*C -> 0,9 - 1,25 kOhm

45*C -> 0,8 - 1,1 kOhm

50*C -> 700 - 950 Ohm

55*C -> 600 - 800 Ohm

60*C -> 525 - 675 Ohm

65*C -> 450 - 575 Ohm

70*C -> 400 - 500 Ohm

75*C -> 325 - 425 Ohm

80*C -> 275 - 375 Ohm

85*C -> 250 - 325 Ohm

90*C -> 200 - 300 Ohm

95*C -> 175 - 250 Ohm

100*C > 150 - 225 Ohm

 

Another thermistor connected to temperature gauge (pins 2-4) should have roughly half the resistance values for ECU.

[4muddyfeet]

You can safely replace it. As you can see below, the ECU of your engine thinks the coolant has 70*C when in reality it has 90*C.

Fantastic, thank you. Part ordered!

[4muddyfeet]

You can safely replace it. As you can see below, the ECU of your engine thinks the coolant has 70*C when in reality it has 90*C.

The resistance values of the thermistor connected to ECU (pins 1-3) should be as follows:

0*C --> 5 - 6,5 kOhm

5*C --> 4 - 5 kOhm

10*C -> 3,25 - 4,5 kOhm

15*C -> 2,75 - 3,5 kOhm

20*C -> 2,25 - 3 kOhm

25*C -> 2 - 2,5 kOhm

30*C -> 1,5 - 2 kOhm

35*C -> 1,25 - 1,75 kOhm

40*C -> 0,9 - 1,25 kOhm

45*C -> 0,8 - 1,1 kOhm

50*C -> 700 - 950 Ohm

55*C -> 600 - 800 Ohm

60*C -> 525 - 675 Ohm

65*C -> 450 - 575 Ohm

70*C -> 400 - 500 Ohm

75*C -> 325 - 425 Ohm

80*C -> 275 - 375 Ohm

85*C -> 250 - 325 Ohm

90*C -> 200 - 300 Ohm

95*C -> 175 - 250 Ohm

100*C > 150 - 225 Ohm

Another thermistor connected to temperature gauge (pins 2-4) should have roughly half the resistance values for ECU.

I've replaced the coolant temp sensor and the car starts much better now, but still won't start when the engine is warm. Is there a way to test the crank sensor?

[RicardoM]

Before getting to crank sensor, let's see how the new CTS works. Do the same resistance measurement when the engine is warm. Check if the resistance is 200-300 Ohms. Make sure the coolant level is good (when the engine is warm, the level should be 1 cm below MAX sign).

 

I've looked again over other Felicia forums to see what they say about this no-start-when-warm situation. There aren't too many cases but some Felicias are stubborn despite replacing CTS, crankshaft sensor, and ignition coil... The weirdest solution involved the starter motor (!) The guy said something about the starter not being able to crank fast enough when hot... The cranking speed was a just a tad lower, not easy observable. I don't know what to say about that but I pass the information.

 

It is hard to pinpoint the culprit. The temperature is our only malfunction factor. Logic says the engine should start because it was idling fine 30 seconds ago. But that is true on a car without computer. I hope the ECU isn't messed up after a reset (key off-key on). You definitely need a diagnose with VAG-COM. The program has a function called VagScope. It allows you to record live data. I would hook the scanner when the engine is warm and idling and start recording for 10 seconds. Then stop the engine. Key on. Start recording again. Crank the engine. Compare data.

Edited 9 May, 2016 by RicardoM

[4muddyfeet]

Before getting to crank sensor, let's see how the new CTS works. Do the same resistance measurement when the engine is warm. Check if the resistance is 200-300 Ohms. Make sure the coolant level is good (when the engine is warm, the level should be 1 cm below MAX sign).

I've looked again over other Felicia forums to see what they say about this no-start-when-warm situation. There aren't too many cases but some Felicias are stubborn despite replacing CTS, crankshaft sensor, and ignition coil... The weirdest solution involved the starter motor (!) The guy said something about the starter not being able to crank fast enough when hot... The cranking speed was a just a tad lower, not easy observable. I don't know what to say about that but I pass the information.

It is hard to pinpoint the culprit. The temperature is our only malfunction factor. Logic says the engine should start because it was idling fine 30 seconds ago. But that is true on a car without computer. I hope the ECU isn't messed up after a reset (key off-key on). You definitely need a diagnose with VAG-COM. The program has a function called VagScope. It allows you to record live data. I would hook the scanner when the engine is warm and idling and start recording for 10 seconds. Then stop the engine. Key on. Start recording again. Crank the engine. Compare data.

I've measured again once upto temp and it recorded 286, so the new sensor works A OK.

I have a good relationship with my parts place and I'm able to return whatever I don't need, so would it be worth picking up a new crank sensor and seeing if it solves anything? They're happy with same day returns as long as parts are clean, and the crank sensor has no chance of being damaged during install.

I'll get a VAG-COM plugged in as soon as I'm able, I have Land Rover under restoration at the moment so it's taking a lot of my free time!

[RicardoM]

I've measured again once upto temp and it recorded 286, so the new sensor works A OK.

Excellent. Money well spent. Now I'm thinking if the computer needs to "relearn" the new situation. Maybe it still dumps too much fuel when the engine is warm. Do the following first: disconnect the negative battery cable overnight. Connect it back in the morning. Key on and wait for 30 seconds. Start the engine. See what happens later on a warm start.

I have a good relationship with my parts place and I'm able to return whatever I don't need, so would it be worth picking up a new crank sensor and seeing if it solves anything? They're happy with same day returns as long as parts are clean, and the crank sensor has no chance of being damaged during install.

That is awesome. In that case I would borrow both a crankcase sensor and an ignition coil. They should be replaced IN TURN if the car has a warm-no-start condition. Putting new, cold parts could make the difference.

[4muddyfeet]

I've measured again once upto temp and it recorded 286, so the new sensor works A OK.

Excellent. Money well spent. Now I'm thinking if the computer needs to "relearn" the new situation. Maybe it still dumps too much fuel when the engine is warm. Do the following first: disconnect the negative battery cable overnight. Connect it back in the morning. Key on and wait for 30 seconds. Start the engine. See what happens later on a warm start.

I have a good relationship with my parts place and I'm able to return whatever I don't need, so would it be worth picking up a new crank sensor and seeing if it solves anything? They're happy with same day returns as long as parts are clean, and the crank sensor has no chance of being damaged during install.

That is awesome. In that case I would borrow both a crankcase sensor and an ignition coil. They should be replaced IN TURN if the car has a warm-no-start condition. Putting new, cold parts could make the difference.

OK i'll disconnect the battery tonight and update tomorrow. Thanks.