high biting point on clutch pedal

[plymvrs]

my 2004 fabia 1.2 htp classic has 115,000 miles on the clock. the clutch pedal biting point is near the top of the travel. it doesn't slip. is there a way to adjust the travel, or do i need a new clutch? i can hear the thrust bearing making a noise when in neutral and clutch out. any ideas? i can get a 3 piece clutch which includes thrust bearing for 49.50 off ebay. but if it can be adjusted it might save me 49.50! to my knowledge the clutch has never been changed. will have to look in service history.

[sepulchrave]

Clutch is not adjustable, if it's not slipping then there's no reason to change it yet.

[TMB]

 i can hear the thrust bearing making a noise when in neutral and clutch out. any ideas?

 

That's not the clutch thrust bearing but the gearbox input shaft bearing. Lots of cars do it though.

[Clunkclick]

Got both of the symptoms you describe on my 1.4 16v saloon.

 

The high-biting clutch has been like that since new. Its now done 60,000 on the original clutch and it still isn't slipping - though it occasionally sticks on release (Hydraulics ?). Only downside is that I'm fairly long-legged, so that, even with the drivers seat full-back,d I can bang my knee on the dashboard if I try to "Feel" the biting point with a straight leg action.

 

So, i developed a cranked leg action and do a lot of short-shifting, which the 100 BHP 16v engine seems to appreciate and  this clutch defect has the added advantage that you always tend to lay-on more power than necessary through the gas pedal when taking-off from rest. The extra throttle laid in also acts to defeat the Euro 4 throttle dampening, which, IMHO, is  traffic hazard at junctions and roundabouts,

 

That together with the left yawed drivers seating alignment (Due to the wheel arch intrusion into the driver footwell) means that along with BMW, this car must be up for the Knights Cross with oak leaf cluster, "**** cabin ergonomics of the century award". But they're all the same nowadays, decent visibility, ergonomics, all compromised for external appearance (Designer's would say aerodynamics), so that the marketeers can have a clear run at flogging this crap to customers who have difficulty distinguishing an elephants trunk from a gear stick.

 

But there you go, give the manufacturers a chance, they've only been designing and building en masse monocoque chasis, front engined/driven consumer runabouts for the last 70 years !

 

My guess about the clutch fault is that it is an assembly line fitting error.

 

 

Now for your rattling noise.

 

If it is coming from the central lower dashboard /tranny tunnel area,  is present through the speed range of the lower gears and disappears with the clutch depressed then its input shaft bearing. I got it on mine after I asked the main dealer to change the gearbox oil after 11 years. Clearly the input shaft bearings had worn and it was only the dirty oil that was keeping the worn bearings in position. Now they have fresh clean oil they are all over the place. So be warned, the "Sealed for Life"  gearbox publicity BS is just that. Its all based on Skoda's reduced sense of responsibility.  They are not alone, all the other manufactuers are the same. As far as Skoda and most of these other manufacturers are concerned, a car for life, means the first owner (Who on average sells it on after 4-6 years), after that they don't want to know. On average mileage gearbox oil should be changed every 4 years (Max) to prevent problems - I had a Golf Mk 1 from new and after the first year of dealer servicing (Co-incident with the makers warranty) did the servicing myself, including changing the gearbox oil every 4 years. Result;- 17 years later it went to the scappies with rotting body work but the gearbox was sound as a pound.

 

Seems to me that the only people advantaged by the "Sealed for life" policies are the marketeers selling new cars. 

 

If the input shaft bearings are worn, its fairly likely that the input bearing oil seal is leaking as well - its is on mine. So, for damage limitation purposes, you need to be regularly topping up the gear box oil until you get it fixed.

 

To get the input shaft bearing and oil seal fixed, gearbox has to come out and diassembled and new parts fitted where appropraite.

So that's at least £900 + for a refurbished gearbox and £450 for an exchange - all for the sake of £15 worth of gearbox oil every 4 years. You know it makes sense.

 

And main dealer just stand-by, knowing what's occuring, without commenting, as the deluge rolls on ! That's commercial savvy for you !

Nick

Edited 9 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

I disagree, the reason the gearbox is filled for life is that the very expensive synthetic gearbox oil actually lasts longer than the gearbox itself. This will have been calculated by the engineers who designed the gearbox because oil technology has improved dramatically since you bought that Golf all those years ago.

Unless a leak develops, in which case topping up will preserve integrity, or the gearbox has to be drained for a repair then there is no need to change the gearbox oil at all.

I agree that the if the first motion shaft front bearing starts to fail then the seal will follow hastening the demise of that bearing.

The reason the clutch seems to stick when depressed is that there is a pseudo-detent designed into the mechanical linkage which reduces the effort of holding the pedal to the floor, that yours does this suggests to me that you may benefit from bleeding the line or replacing the slave which is external and easy to do.

[TMB]

I've had loads of cars where you could hear the input shaft bearing slightly whirring with the clutch up in neutral and never had a problem. They do get noisy after a while. Nothing to worry about unless the noise is excessive.

Edited 9 September, 2016 by TMB

[Clunkclick]

I disagree, the reason the gearbox is filled for life is that the very expensive synthetic gearbox oil actually lasts longer than the gearbox itself. This will have been calculated by the engineers who designed the gearbox because oil technology has improved dramatically since you bought that Golf all those ye yearsars ago.

Unless a leak develops, in which case topping up will preserve integrity, or the gearbox has to be drained for a repair then there is no need to change the gearbox oil at all.

I agree that the if the first motion shaft front bearing starts to fail then the seal will follow hastening the demise of that bearing.

The reason the clutch seems to stick when depressed is that there is a pseudo-detent designed into the mechanical linkage which reduces the effort of holding the pedal to the floor, that yours does this suggests to me that you may  benefit from bleeding the line or replacing the slave which is external and easy to do.

Yeah. That is the industry line (Like the maintenance-free batteries).

 

But like the batteries, the policy only serves the sellers  and the public statements saying its all OK are palliative BS designed to pacify the unknowledgeable.

 

Only wish the main dealer had told me this in a timely way. All i got was years of no response despite pointing out an unattributed oil leak from the  bell housing. 

Suggests to me that the dealers are not happy with the "Sealed for Life" crap, but are afraid of putting their head above the parapet for fear of losing the concession.

 

The reason i got them to change the sealed-for life gearbox oil was because it was getting very slightly difficult to engage the lower gears (No noise, at that stage)i The difference in the gear selection after the oil was changed was, as the doctors would say, palpable.

 

I had previously asked them to top it up, but they "Forgot" on at least a couple of  previous occasions (Translate that to couldn't be arsed). So the only option left open to me was to request a complete drain and refill - and Skoda Customer Services, OK'd this action, reportedly after consulting their in-house engineers. Within six months of the gearbox oil being changed I got the noisey bearing and the effing things is still leaking though the bell housing. Once i am clear of the current round of hospital appointments, I am contemplating instructing someone to get the gearbox, seal, input bearing and anything else, repaired.

 

If synthetic oil is  that good why would the bearing go at all ? and why are other car forums e.g. BMW, awash with exactly the same complaints about "Sealed for Life" gearboxes failing early ?

 

I'm sure the oil that was drained wasn't the same colour as the stuff that was used to fill it again - it will have been full of dirt and pollutants.

 

The "Sealed for Life" policy is marketeers BS, and anybody with an ounce of engineering sense (i.e. excluding marketeers) knows it is.

The only thing that should have been "Sealed for Life" is Tutenkahmen's tomb.

 

I sure Rolls Royce aero engines will be recommending that all the fluids in the Trent 1000's, that have been failing with nauseating regulatory recently, notably on Nippon Airways, are left in place for 10 years without replacement, because as they're belatedly finding out, again somewhat belatedly for a manufacturer of high-bypass engines that have been flying through the silica and sulphur rich environment of the far and middle east for the last 40 years, excess sand and sulphur erodes fan blades and other internal mechanisms - and being restricted to high sulphur crap  J + 1 jet fuel statesside doesn't help either !

 

Genius.

 

Same with ordinary road dirt getting into gearboxes

 

Nick

Edited 10 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

I'm sure the oil that was drained wasn't the same colour as the stuff that was used to fill it again - it will have been full of dirt and pollutants.

 

I'm afraid I'm an Engineer not an expert on Industrial conspiracies so I can only remark on things which actually make sense.

 

Your gearbox oil contains no dirt or pollutants precisely because it is sealed, the oil is not pumped or circulated, it changes colour from harmless Sulphide formation, this also releases an unpleasant smell a bit like rotten eggs, because this is how Sulphides smell.

It's GCSE Chemistry stuff so I won't go into boring detail, but if your gearbox remains sealed and doesn't leak then the oil will easily last the entire life of the gearbox.

As the gearbox wears metal particulates sink to the bottom of the gearbox where they stay because they're heavier than the oil, if you drain your gearbox, this metal sludge will be the first thing you'll see as the oil runs out.

Your gearbox synchro rings are not lubricated by the oil, rather they rely on the drag created by fluid shear, they don't care if the oil is new or old, they simply cease to create the necessary drag as they wear making the gearchange more temperamental.

 

Dealers would be more than happy to have a gearbox oil service interval, the oil is expensive and it's a very simple job to do, even for the apprentice, so they'd make even more money, so you go ahead and do what you like, it isn't necessary but if it makes you feel better then spend your money.

 

I'll leave the conspiracy guff for you to consider, it's a waste of time better spent thinking about something else.

[Clunkclick]

Gordon Bennet !

 

If you were addressing a Brexit supporters audience, you would of course be up there in the truth stakes with he who must be obeyed. Back on planet Earth, science and experience instructs us differently !

 

Now i can see what the problem is, if this is the official Skoda UK mindset too ! Denyers anonymous !

 

Please Selpulchrave, do me a favour about gearbox oil not being polluted after use and that this pollution has no bearing on the oil's lubricating capacity.

 

Gearboxes, like other mechanical parts, are not eternal. They have a limited life span due to wear and tear. And the greater the wear and tear the shorten the lifespan.

 

Whilst lubricating oil, as the name implies, is supposed to provide a boundary layer between moving components, it isn't perfect and even when fresh, some metal to metal contact will occur. And this increases as the oil ages and becomes polluted. Even the AA "Book of the car" recognises that !

 

 

First off, there's pollutants generated internally in the gearbox during normal use :-

 

As said, metal on metal contact of gear wheels, syncromeshes, selector forks, dog clutches etc, occurs even in the best conditions, this contact produces micro metal shavings. Equally, the heat-up and cool down of the gearbox components during normal use causes gradual decomposition of the oil and loss of its protective properties. Further, water vapour in the air in the  top of the gearbox will condense out during the cool-down cycle and enter the gearbox oil and undermine the lubricating properties of the oil.

 

Then there's the external pollutants.

 

Most gearboxes have at least 6 holes in the casing to allow the drive shafts to the wheels, power input shaft from the engine, gear selection mechanism, oil drain and oil fill to occur. Whilst these holes will be closed off by gaskets and plugs (In the case of the fill and drain orfices) and seals (In the case of the moving and rotating shafts) they do not form a perfect seal, even when new. This allows air, moisture and dirt into the gearbox, especially when we are talking about moving parts. And as they age, these gaskets, seals, plugs and shafts also  wear and degrade alllowing slightly more pollutants in, albeit in very small quantities. The build-up of quantities of pollutants will be significant over the lifetime of a gearbox - otherwise why have the oil companies  been wasting there time and money over the last 60 years doing research and development. Dare, I say it some drivers may even take their vehicles through country water splashes and flooded sections of road in the modern UK.

 

The question is how long it takes before the build-up of internally and externally generated pollutants becomes significant to start changing the wear characteristics of Skoda, VAG, BMW gearboxes. As said, the input shaft oil seal on my car's 02 gearbox started leaking at 30,000 miles i.e about 5 years of use from new  - remebering that gearoil would hqve normally been first changed at year 4 under the old schema.

 

The current generation of Skoda engineers (under strict control by the marketeers) would have us believe that the gearbox is "Sealed for life". But when I asked Skoda what "Life" was in relation to my gearbox they cop'd out and wouldn't give a figure. They said it was a customer decision if and when to change the gearbox oil, but they had no objections to the change occuring.

 

Clearly, the use of this phrase has no meaning as far as the Skoda customers are concerned. Although, i suspect that deep in the bowels of Bratislava/Wolfsburg and perhaps even Milton Keynes there may be a document detailing the design life of the  02 gearbox given certain tightly defined criteria. This information isn't made available. Instead, we have this "Sealed for life" crap, which, as we have seen is meaning less and which, when challenged, Skoda will not support. Two -faced.

 

And the control of the marketeers is so pervasive that dealers won't balk, in the slightest  against the idiocy advocated by the in-country national represenative. 

 

And, i suspect that this is all done to con the Fleet owners that lifetime running cost are lower than they actually are, thereby gaining the potential for an increased market share of sales. Why this policy should be applied to Fabia, other to give the impression of consistency across the Skoda brand, whose sales must be mainly to private domestic owner, is something can only be answered by the relevant heads of department..

 

Once again, I've managed, inadvertently and innocently to hijack the Op's thread, may i suggest we hand it back to him ?

 

Postscript

 

Intuitively, Its the build-up of debris that is significant, especially if it starts accumulating in ball bearing races, as has obviously happened with my vehicle.

 

I think you'll find that a gearbox oil change every 4 years (Or equivalent)  would significantly diminish the huge spike in reports of failures in "Sealed-for-life" gearboxes. And the economics is in favour of this viz., 4 x £45 per change ( Worst case for 3.2 litre capacity on the 02 box) = £180 over 13 years of use, against £900 for a rebuilt-box. No contest.

 

The box of my 1981 Golf had the oil changed every 4 years (By me) and went on for 17 years before the vehicle went to scrappy with body rot. With the current Fabia, i faced with the situation where the body work is good enough for 25-30 yers of use and the mehanicals have given up prematurely - suggests to me that there is no consistency across the design of the car components.

 

Nick

Edited 11 September, 2016 by Clunkclick