Hi,

Does anyone remember a motoring article some years ago (not sure where), that gave a good reasoning that 4 wheel drive vehicle is less predictable when it looses grip, than a 2 wheel drive? The article stated that there have been many accidents of drivers loosing complete control of thier 4 wheel drive vehicles.

Regards: Jim Ford

Which magazine, drunken test driver, Suzuki SJ410, shortened slalom test failure.

Then retested many other cars on shortened test, and they failed also (inc sierra estate!)

It was a C of G thing rather than driven wheels - like the Merc A class "elk test" failure.

I'd lend my 2p to say yes they are more dangerous, not less safe...my reasoning. FWD cuts loose sooner (UK ROADS forget tracks please) 4x4 enables you to make better traction and thus pace, net result extends you into that danger area where a FWD would of begun to break away. Thus when the moment ddoes come it's comes in a more dangerous way, speed, forces whatever.

Just my 2p anyway. As to the Skoda/VAG haldex I've found even when understeering madly into a bend a quick dab of brakes and then feed power again it sorts the car out wonderfully. ( I know your not meant to but with a car on the other side it's brakes or him and for the two times I've had to do it over lift it worked.)

The advantage of 4x4 only works if you are 'on the gas' at the time, it's against most driver's instincts to power out of trouble. I had a good in a friend's Impreza on the MIRA skidpan, it was a hard lesson to learn to boot it through the understeer until the back-end started to come round.

Aye, I need to find a skid pan, because of the haldex and it's ability to decide where to squirt the power, well it's a strange beast!

Last time I called a skid pan palce and said I wanted to use my own car to learn how it's TC/4WD system would react, his comment amazingly was why? Erm so I don't discover it on the B4407...well there's no point it will ...and so on.

haldex is a strange sensation...FWD, RWD, 4WD, LHD, RHD 1WD god knows what it's doing

Originally posted by Guy in this post

The advantage of 4x4 only works if you are 'on the gas' at the time, it's against most driver's instincts to power out of trouble.

Agree. That's why FWD is safest for most.

Me? I just give it some more welly.

Originally posted by Tavia4x4 in this post

It was a C of G thing rather than driven wheels - like the Merc A class "elk test" failure.

It can also be a tyres thing, in which case an AWD is more dangerous, as you will be much closer or actually on the limit on many occasions, as Colin states. So if the car pushes the tyres' grip too much, they will go all four at the same time. AWD gives you unbelievable traction but it's the tyres that give you grip. And you don't want to lose grip in mid-corner! That's why you could say that AWD is more dangerous. But in that case RWD is lethal (and so, as Paul rightly states - a man's drive system... ).

In short: the margin of error is much smaller in an AWD, because you can push the envelope much further and won't feel the danger until right before it's too late - and to many a Scooby owner's detriment, until it is too late...

But the scoob is not as adaptive as the haldex setup.

I've seen first hand a scoob understeering on wet muddy tarmac, and he just tried to give it more power and understeered moreso! (stage rally, three sisters last yeatr).

You do need to back off to get the weight round, or at least know what the weight is doing, before you hoof it.

..and then of course you can throw ESP into the mix

Well said, Ian. Couldn't agree more.

Being able to floor it very early into the corner after having "set" it is one of the joys of having a Haldex...

My FWD regularly loses all 4 wheels and just drifts sideways - if I had RWD I could boot it to bring the back round, but if the front's already slipping sideways that won't help, IMHO. Unless the front is planted, the car's going to carry on going sideways, unless you can bring the back round enough to make the front wheels regain grip because the direction has changed ....

Edit: skid pan visits were being discussed on my first day on Briskoda - I miss that real-time chatbox ...

:wave: I did a skid pan course in a Rover 200 that was jacked up on a hydraulic trolley affair - Taught me more about grip/skidding/etc in 3 hours, than I knew from all my experience. I'd recoommend a course like that to anyone, especially "novices".

Nick

Try pulling the middle lever, that should bring the back round, in fact it may even overtake you.

Seriously take it to Powerstation & get them to tweak the alignment, that will give the front a tendancy to bight into the corner harder.

They did my 4x4 & the difference was noticable. Also if you have lowered the 4x4 Forge do some adjustable bottom tie rods which correct the Camber, get them fitted before you go to Powerstation. My Camber was over a degree out & I only lowered it to RS level & I have already noticed scrubbing on the inside of the rears. They are daft expensive for what they are,

I'm a total fan of 4WD / AWD in its various forms (4x4 car no.15 etc) and the only danger is pushing too hard or trying to defy the laws of physics. In normal and (especially) emergency situations I would disagree wholly that its not as safe as FWD.

I'm looking forward to driving this winter as this is first I've had with Haldex 4x4 - as Colin mentioned, if you want to drive it very very hard, I do feel you need to understand how it works along with ESP etc.

In that respect, it is more difficult to drive than any other 4x4 system I've had experience of !

With permanent 50:50 torque split 4x4 you 'always' know what's happening next. With Haldex, I still occasionally get some wheelspin when I don't expect it, and by the same token, if you throw it very hard round a tight roundabout, it sometimes feels really well sorted (ESP helping Ian?). There is also a sometimes a torque effect (not torque steer) throught the steering as it transfers power under hard acceleration. (NB all this refers to Jabba power rather than standard spec)

Its effective and has been superbly economical so far (being a part-time 4wd), and with we were handing out marks I'd rate the 4x4 systems I've had like this:-

Haldex (Octavia) - 7/10

Quattro (A4 x 2) - 9/10

Subaru (Impreza) - 8/10

Subaru (EC Auto) - 8/10

Toyota (GT4) - 6/10

Mazda (323) - 7/10

Rob

Originally posted by Dutch4x4 in this post

Well said, Ian. Couldn't agree more.

Being able to floor it very early into the corner after having "set" it is one of the joys of having a Haldex...

This is the most " elegant " statement of the Octavia 4*4 by far , and I would confirm this .

The car has that "french" feel of the old Renault 16s which in their day were awesome . You have to lean the suspension as you begin to turn into the bend and then you just power it through .

There have been may times on these local roads at night when I should have lost it , but at that point the car just appears to take over control from my amateurish efforts .

However , when that ice warning comes on , I respect it .... snow is a different matter ...he..he..he .