Up to 3000 Vacancies at Openreach.

[Ttaskmaster]

On 09/02/2018 at 19:50, Sad555 said:

Don’t blame the engineers...........they work hard and are under a lot of pressure .......years and years of under investment is why the company is in this position now.

I didn't think anybody would.

Certainly I blame their lying marketing department who send me these letters, and their lying management who are all engaged with this particular business plan.

 

 

On 10/02/2018 at 02:15, Sad555 said:

I consider this Remark to be a great insult to  many past and present engineers on the kit.

I consider anyone who calls themself an Engineer, and does not possess an engineering degree, to be greatly insulting every proper engineer.

 

 

[Sad555]

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Posted 11 minutes ago

   On 09/02/2018 at 19:50,  Sad555 said: 

Don’t blame the engineers...........they work hard and are under a lot of pressure .......years and years of under investment is why the company is in this position now.

I didn't think anybody would.

Certainly I blame their lying marketing department who send me these letters, and their lying management who are all engaged with this particular business plan.

 

 

   On 10/02/2018 at 02:15,  Sad555 said: 

I consider this Remark to be a great insult to  many past and present engineers on the kit.

I consider anyone who calls themself an Engineer, and does not possess an engineering degree, to be greatly insulting every proper engineer........................What an insult to all the people who have served an apprentice ship for 5 years and attended night school for that period...5 yr..engineering apprenticeship and not an engineer?

[Sad555]

..What an insult to all the people who have served an apprentice ship for 5 years and attended night school for that period...5 yr..engineering apprenticeship and not an engineer?

 

 

[SWBoy]

44 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

I consider anyone who calls themself an Engineer, and does not possess an engineering degree, to be greatly insulting every proper engineer.

100% agree.

 

The UK is one of the few first world countries where the term "Engineer" is not a protected profession in the same way as "Doctor" or "Dentist" are. This subject gets discussed every few months in the Engineering Institution publications, but it seems nobody in authority in the Institutions wants to "make a fuss" at Governmental level to get something done about it.

[Bignij]

You don’t need a degree to legitimately call yourself an Engineer.

[VWD]

BUT unlike some other countries, you need to have been on an approved engineering path to qualify. In some othr countries, it's because you were named "Engineer".

[Ttaskmaster]

15 hours ago, Bignij said:

You don’t need a degree to legitimately call yourself an Engineer.

 

Not in this country, no, but you do in others where it is a legally protected title and carries considerable social prestige in the same way a doctor does.

I'd also argue that capitalising the word suggests you are backing it up with some sort of actual degree.

 

Furthermore, while the term engineer is quite general and has been too far adopted into common language to start changing things, once you start specifying your profession (Chartered, Incorporated, Engineering Technician) then you get into the realms of titles that are protected!

In the same way, anyone can call themselves a lawyer... but claim to be a Solicitor, Barrister or Advocate and see where that gets you!

 

 

 

[Sad555]

best of luck to anybody who went to uni and got an engineering degree good for them,but theres no need to decry others who have engineering jobs and served apprenticeships or trained in other ways and  earn lower wages and have no degree,or is it just snob value?

Edited 13 February, 2018 by Sad555

[Ttaskmaster]

On 12/02/2018 at 16:11, Sad555 said:

..What an insult to all the people who have served an apprentice ship for 5 years and attended night school for that period...5 yr..engineering apprenticeship and not an engineer?

 

So you're equating someone of Technician ability and knowledge to a full-blown Engineer?

Doesn't work that way... I assume you know the difference between an Engineer and a Technician?

Engineers sit at design benches, crunching numbers, applying scientific theories, messing about with algorithms and formulae, calculating load bearings and the like. They don't get their hands dirty digging up roads and installing kit in all weathers. They might get to go out on site for an occasional jolly out of the office, but they're usually just observers.

 

If you want to talk in terms of apprenticeships - Your telecoms "engineer" bloke at OpenReach would have barely begun Journeyman status. He has many more years of training in and practicing his trade before he is fully admitted to the Guild, and still more before he is proclaimed Maister of his trade. Engineers are the equivalent of those Maisters.

 

21 hours ago, Sad555 said:

best of luck to anybody who went to uni and got an engineering degree good for them,but theres no need to decry others who have engineering jobs and served apprenticeships or trained in other ways and  earn lower wages and have no degree,or is it just snob value?

No, there is a distinct difference between a Technician and an Engineer. Otherwise any old bricklayer would claim to be a Civil Engineer.

IF your apprenticed, night-schooled, supposedly-engineering jobbed individual were indeed as 'every bit as good an engineer as an actual Engineer' as you STRONGLY imply, then they'd simply walk into Incorporated Engineer status, wouldn't they....  Because that's what Incoporated Engineer status is all about.

 

In short, Engineers have every right to tell other roles to **** off and stop stealing their title. They're absolute pretenders who don't know what engineering is, let alone actually have actual Engineer jobs.

 

I'd suggest you look up what an actual Engineering degree requires in order to achieve... and once you've learned that, try not to let your jaw hit the floor when you realise how little an actual Engineer often gets paid!!

 

[Sad555]

13 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

22 hours ago, Sad555 said:

best of luck to anybody who went to uni and got an engineering degree good for them,but theres no need to decry others who have engineering jobs and served apprenticeships or trained in other ways and  earn lower wages and have no degree,or is it just snob value?

No, there is a distinct difference between a Technician and an Engineer. Otherwise any old bricklayer would claim to be a Civil Engineer.

IF your apprenticed, night-schooled, supposedly-engineering jobbed individual were indeed as 'every bit as good an engineer as an actual Engineer' as you STRONGLY imply, then they'd simply walk into Incorporated Engineer status, wouldn't they....  Because that's what Incoporated Engineer status is all about.

 

if a person is employed as an engineer,and that is their job title for the role they are paid for by the company that employs them that's it ,they are not claiming to have a degree in their trade, its their job title for the work they are qualified to do,you appear to be very hung up about the word engineer which I would have thought that most engineers would not consider it a problem having attained their BA ,got a job are the so hung up about it......so IF you call for someone to carry out a boiler repair at your property and the heating engineer arrives do you tell them they are NOT an engineer because they are  have not  got a bachelor degree and not let them carry out the work ?I think you need to get a life and stop worry about it mr engineer.

[Bignij]

I alwys use the lower case 'e' as a snub to non-engineers who call themselves Engineers. I very rarely get picked up on it because as you say, they don't really know what it takes to become an Engineer. And as per my previous post, I don't have a degree but I am a bona fide Engineer as recognised by my professional body and have been for along long time. 

[Bignij]

7 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

if a person is employed as an engineer,and that is their job title for the role they are paid for by the company that employs them that's it ,they are not claiming to have a degree in their trade, its their job title for the work they are qualified to do,you appear to be very hung up about the word engineer which I would have thought that most engineers would not consider it a problem having attained their BA ,got a job are the so hung up about it......so IF you call for someone to carry out a boiler repair at your property and the heating engineer arrives do you tell them they are NOT an engineer because they are  have not  got a bachelor degree and not let them carry out the work ?I think you need to get a life and stop worry about it mr engineer.

 

 

But in light of the above..........................I don't get bent out of shape over it. 

[Sad555]

I suppose I should look on the upside and be thankfull that I was payed good money for 48 years as an engineer when I wasn’t one.

[Ttaskmaster]

24 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

if a person is employed as an engineer,and that is their job title for the role they are paid for by the company that employs them that's it ,they are not claiming to have a degree in their trade, its their job title for the work they are qualified to do,you appear to be very hung up about the word engineer which I would have thought that most engineers would not consider it a problem having attained their BA ,got a job are the so hung up about it......so IF you call for someone to carry out a boiler repair at your property and the heating engineer arrives do you tell them they are NOT an engineer because they are  have not  got a bachelor degree and not let them carry out the work ?I think you need to get a life and stop worry about it mr engineer.

 

Job titles don't mean **** - I can call myself an Environmental Engineer all I like, I'd still be a flippin' Dustbin Man!!

The reason most Engineers get hung up over the misappropriation of their professional title is precisely because any idiot can and does steal the word. This had led to Generic Role Profiling and downgrading of both their role and their salary. In short, "engineer" pretenders are dragging proper Engineering down.

 

The whole point of a professional title IS the claim of having a recognised level of certification and competence in the trade.

If you say you're a doctor, that means you have your doctorate and all the benefits and responsibilities that go with it, no?

Engineers have gone out and done everything it takes to get a proper degree, and are held legally accountable for even being aware that something is unsound. Your idea of an engineer doesn't have to give a toss, whereas a proper Engineer can go to prison if he sees something and fails to intervene. Still want to be an engineer?

 

This is why other countries have had the intelligence to legally protect the term and why German engineering still has such a good reputation.

And for the record, while I work in an engineering environment I am NOT an Engineer myself. I just understand the BS

 

But whatever. You're an "engineer", highly qualified because some company made you up a fancy job title - So come and do MY job job, since you claim to be qualified for it. When you end up killing people, I'm sure you'll be able to explain why in a very technical fashion.

I assume your work crew manager is a telecoms brigadier-general, too?

 

 

[Sad555]

I'm retired ,that's my job title now ,get over it..........and even BT engineers/managers can go to prison for corporate manslaughter if their mistake at work causes an accident or fatality.........ps if you need faster broadband help let me know......................oh sorry I'm not an ENGINEER

[Sad555]

19 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

This is why other countries have had the intelligence to legally protect the term and why German engineering still has such a good reputation.

And for the record, while I work in an engineering environment I am NOT an Engineer myself. I just understand the BS

 

But whatever. You're an "engineer", highly qualified because some company made you up a fancy job title - So come and do MY job job, since you claim to be qualified for it. When you end up killing people, I'm sure you'll be able to explain why in a very technical fashion.

I assume your work crew manager is a telecoms brigadier-general, too?

SOMETHING has ruffled your feathers and you say your not an Engineer

[Ttaskmaster]

22 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

I'm retired ,that's my job title now ,get over it..........and even BT engineers/managers can go to prison for corporate manslaughter if their mistake at work causes an accident or fatality.........ps if you need faster broadband help let me know......................oh sorry I'm not an ENGINEER

Err, no....... Corporate Manslaughter (the clue is in the title of the offense) applies quite specifically to the company or organisation itself, and quite specifically NOT to any individual, director, manager or otherwise.

An Engineer would know this.

 

And I'll pass on the backhanded non-official offer of the Broadband, thanks - BT and OpenReach "engineers" have had several years of breaking those delivery promises to prove how inept they are.

Besides, some fibre company I've never heard of made me the exact same promise... but within a mere month of making it are laying the promised cable this very week!!

 

16 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

SOMETHING has ruffled your feathers and you say your not an Engineer

Not even a certified Technician, really, since 21 years in the job still doesn't mean I can do what a certified one could.

I work with Engineers, I know what they went through to qualify and I know what they're capable of. I also know it generally takes degree-level education in order to achieve that, unless you want to spend the years it takes to become Incorporated - I also know that some bloke in a van climbing poles and digging up pavements, while admirable honest work that no doubt takes some measure of time and skill in which to develop proficiency, is not an Engineer. If they were, they'd not be sat in their 23-grand job when they could do this one instead!

 

[Sad555]

the last time I earned that amount was about 30 years ago ,many manage over 40 now and the contractors digging the  pavements were earning about £65,000 or more and they weren't even engineers.you have to take what you can get.

[VWD]

Tt- presumably , like SAD, I served my time, and was awarded the title Technician by the forerunner to BT. These days, by virtue of my experience, I went back to college to pursue an HND ,with little effort due to my background. I'm now ( if I wished ) entitled to claim Inc Eng STATUS.  I've worked with blokes with an engineering degree . Great on theory, bit lacking on practicalities. Those Engineering managers with a degree are best left in the office in meetings ,drinking coffee, whilst those of us with practical experience of doing job get on with it. My old mate told me the most hazardous thing on a site was a bloke in a clean HI VIZ jacket. That meant he was a degree qualified "Engineer", with a new jacket.

[Bignij]

19 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

Engineers have gone out and done everything it takes to get a proper degree, and are held legally accountable for even being aware that something is unsound. Your idea of an engineer doesn't have to give a toss, whereas a proper Engineer can go to prison if he sees something and fails to intervene. Still want to be an engineer?

 

 

You don't need a degree to be a bona fide, legally entitled descripted Engineer. It can be done other ways..............................I'll caveat that fact with the disclaimer. At least it could when I became an Engineer. I do actually have a degree but it's not related to my job. 

[Ttaskmaster]

17 hours ago, Sad555 said:

the last time I earned that amount was about 30 years ago ,many manage over 40 now and the contractors digging the  pavements were earning about £65,000 or more and they weren't even engineers.you have to take what you can get.

 

Over 40?

That very advert states the salary, after a whole year of training to the BTEC equivalent of A-Levels, is a mere £26k.

Surely if £65k was even feasible, it'd be better to advertise that, no?

 

12 hours ago, VWD said:

I've worked with blokes with an engineering degree . Great on theory, bit lacking on practicalities. Those Engineering managers with a degree are best left in the office in meetings ,drinking coffee, whilst those of us with practical experience of doing job get on with it.

Engineering managers, sure. Half of them don't even have degrees in Engineering anyway, usually project management or something equally questionable.

Actual Engineers will have a very firm grasp of what crews can do and how best to coordinate them, while staying out of the way. They're usually the ones who will ask if you're happy undertaking a task to a certain time, rather than the management types telling you what you'll do by when... If in doubt, look to whoever brings the biscuits and cakes (or bacon rolls) to the pre-works site meet!!

12 hours ago, VWD said:

My old mate told me the most hazardous thing on a site was a bloke in a clean HI VIZ jacket. That meant he was a degree qualified "Engineer", with a new jacket.

You don't get that any more. Half the time it is a newbie, but they're always babysat and accompanied by at least one proper Chartered and experienced Eng until they've got their various site cards and ditched the blue hat. Actually, that's usually the best way to tell - If they don't turn up with a wallet full of site cards (PTS, CP1, etc), chances are they only got an Engineering degree so they could go into Project Management... and those are dangerous!

 

More often it's guys who've worn out their old kit, though.

3 minutes ago, Bignij said:

You don't need a degree to be a bona fide, legally entitled descripted Engineer. It can be done other ways..............................I'll caveat that fact with the disclaimer. At least it could when I became an Engineer. I do actually have a degree but it's not related to my job. 

Oh, indeed - One year of training and one A-Level makes you a full-on Engineer earning more than a doctor now, apparently... and you don't even have to do any engineering. You just dig up a road...

 

 

 

[Sad555]

17 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Over 40?

That very advert states the salary, after a whole year of training to the BTEC equivalent of A-Levels, is a mere £26k.

Surely if £65k was even feasible, it'd be better to advertise that, no?

 you can work it out,many engineers on a 4 day week ,that leaves 3 days at overtime rates and there was once protracted pay when you worked thro the night which worked out at about 33 hrs pay .also as engineers are not allowed to dig any more the sub contractors that carry out civil work subcontracted and payed by carillion/telant usually with no qualification just hard working labourers.

Edited 15 February, 2018 by Sad555

[Ttaskmaster]

38 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

 you can work it out,many engineers on a 4 day week ,that leaves 3 days at overtime rates and there was once protracted pay when you worked thro the night which worked out at about 33 hrs pay .also as engineers are not allowed to dig any more the sub contractors that carry out civil work subcontracted and payed by carillion/telant usually with no qualification just hard working labourers.

Ah, well, if you want to bring in all the potential extras like overtime on top of the given spec, that's another matter... Most companies are looking to prevent things like payment for overtime, OOH cover, emergency works and the like. Ours are all done in lieu, or you're simply stopped from working once you hit your weekly quota. 

There will also be various clauses written in to make anything business critical part of your normal obligations and not an entitlement to additional pay. So in the case of your telecoms tech, dual-skilled or even multi-skilled techs, you get what it says on your contract and that's it.

 

And yes, most contractors do get paid insane salaries, especially if you're talking Carillion type stuff. They're held to account for far more than company staff, without the same legal protections and do not get any kind of job security or benefits from the company either, so their employer charges a lot more from the outset. They're still not Engineers, though.

 

[Bignij]

1 hour ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Oh, indeed - One year of training and one A-Level makes you a full-on Engineer earning more than a doctor now, apparently... and you don't even have to do any engineering. You just dig up a road...

 

You aint half spouting some old clap trap. Was your mother scared by someone claiming to be an Engineer whilst she was carrying you?

[Sad555]

i

38 minutes ago, Bignij said:

You aint half spouting some old clap trap. Was your mother scared by someone claiming to be an Engineer whilst she was carrying you?

i was beginning to wonder this myself .why would somebody have such I big chip on their shoulder about the word engineer and perhaps bt has done something to vex him and you obviously know f /all about their pay,do you realise there is so much work that engineers even have a clause in their contract to mandatory work ot.oh those happy days of 12hr plus sundays at double time for the engineers.

Edited 15 February, 2018 by Sad555