Snow Monster in the Snow

[ben4012]

I drove the A31 through the new forest early on Friday - after clearing 5mm of frozen rain off the windows.  The road had been a major incident with army assistance Thursday night. About 10 cars were totally abandoned, including an X5, two range rovers and an evoque (which could be 4x2 I suppose). 

 

Tot Hill services on the A34 had 6" all over which my 205/55/16 conti ts5 went through without a spin. Later with the M40 shut, I drove the A40 with a fresh covering no problems. I covered 140 miles, about half with snow on the roads in 4x2 without a wheel spin and without lighting the tc lights once. 

 

With the proper tyres and stove, sleeping bag and shovel in the boot I was probably better prepared than most on the road. Maybe 7Ps comes to play or the the 'I'm snowed in/too lazy to clear a track from their cul de sacs' factor weeds out the morons but I had no issue Dorset to London via Oxfordshire. 

 

 

Edited 4 March, 2018 by ben4012

[ejstubbs]

7 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

You didn't understand what I wrote...

 

Er, yes I did.

 

7 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

this is why in the Skoda manual they state you can fit the chains to the rear on AWD

 

They say you can, they don't say you should.

 

The electronics are designed to deal with loss of grip wherever it happens.

 

You and I shall probably have to agree to disagree on this.

Edited 4 March, 2018 by ejstubbs

[fabdavrav]

17 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

 

The electronics are designed to deal with loss of grip wherever it happens.

 

You and I shall probably have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Its called burying your head in the sand...or snow....

 

Haldex vehicles are 2wd on the front axle...& drive/power only goes to the rear to create AWD....IF the electronics decide it..... & mainly only when the fronts lose grip...that's the whole point of Haldex....2wd drive all the time unless the drive wheels lose grip then it becomes AWD...you are forcing more grip on the main drive wheels so it becomes 2wd.....

 

Many threads on the web about how they work..& yes fitting chains on the front will give you grip & steering...but the Haldex system will not give you full AWD as the fronts are gripping ok.......

 

Many other threads on web suggesting fitting chains to all four wheels...& many others as per the video & the VAG books....ie have winters fitted & still losing grip??...then fit chains to rear.....which is what the video shows....

 

I strongly suggest you read up on the full electronics systems for the Haldex & what causes it to lock up (ie where it gets it signals from & what it does when) & then realise that putting chains on the front will make it be in 2wd mode.....might as well drive a 2wd citigo....

 

[Ootohere]

??

Have you ever fitted chains to a vehicle with Haldex.

 

If you fitted them to the front and get drive then good, if you still get slip then you are getting the rear driving as well.

If you do not fit to the front and are not getting traction then yes you are getting rear drive and still TC / Haldex trying to get grip at those front spinning / losing traction front wheels.

 

You are trying to drive the car, steer and brake, it is nice to have traction at the front.

 

Nice to have choices.

 

?

Who with a Yeti or any vehicle with Haldex has had Snow chains on the Front or rear or both this winter?

[fabdavrav]

8 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

??

Have you ever fitted chains to a vehicle with Haldex.

 

If you fitted them to the front and get drive then good, if you still get slip then you are getting the rear driving as well.

If you do not fit to the front and are not getting traction then yes you are getting rear drive and still TC / Haldex trying to get grip at those front spinning / losing traction front wheels.

 

You are trying to drive the car, steer and brake, it is nice to have traction at the front.

 

Nice to have choices.

 

?

Who with a Yeti or any vehicle with Haldex has had Snow chains on the Front or rear or both this winter?

 

No need to have fitted chains to a Haldex vehicle to know how they operate & their parameters...

 

Go look at the video on the previous page where the poster from New Zealand states that Skoda state fitting chains to the rear on the AWD Haldex version...then look at the video with the Yeti driving around on snow with winter 3mpsf tyres...& around 35sec mark its driving up & down a steep hill with the chains on the REAR only....

 

The reason for this is to get the most GRIP & usage from the Haldex system...other wise if in the video they fitted the chains to the front then the Haldex system would just let the rears freewheel along......that's the whole point of the AWD Haldex system....

 

....& I know a thing or two about them, & have serviced some..plus I have the official workshop & self study guides from VW on them....

 

The ONLY reason they state you can fit to the front is because it is the simplest for steering & traction.....but you lose the AWD advantage..........anyway you shouldn't need chains over here on a Haldex car as 3mpsf tyres are way more beneficial & not speed restricted like chains...

[Ootohere]

Looked at the videos, and more importantly driven the vehicles, which kind of is important.

 

Powering up hills is always impressive, you can do that in front or rear wheel or AWD vehicles with tyres or tyres and chains that will bite or get traction.

Descending in control is more impressive and safer, and on your own side of the road and able to come to a halt is even more impressive, 

and that is not usually done spinning wheels, or the driving and reducing speed tyres.

Edited 4 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[fabdavrav]

6 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Looked at the videos, and more importantly driven the vehicles, which kind of is important.

 

I've driven Audi, VW & Skoda haldex vehicles also.....still doesn't escape the mechanical facts I stated....of when the Haldex system operates or more importantly when it does NOT.....& I strongly suggest reading the design info on it from VAG & BW...

[Ootohere]

Really.

I seriously suggest you do some more snow driving with tyres that are needing chains on or snow socks and then talk about it rather than going on he said, she said, the manual said.

 

Do a few thousand miles each winter on them rather than your fwd cars with good tyres on.

Plenty of us drive those as well, and know what they can do.  Its just sensible to fit the tyres for the job in hand.

Edited 4 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[fabdavrav]

2 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Really.

I seriously suggest you do some more snow driving with tyres that are needing chains on or snow socks and then talk about it rather than going on he said, she said, the manual said.

 

 

Really??..........

 

So example:-  you have crap summer tyres on because you are a skin flint & have a AWD Haldex car...fit socks or chains to the front & you can drive/steer..fine ..never said otherwise....just this is "simple" way of doing things.....

 

BUT the Haldex clutch will not operate UNTIL the fronts lose traction....which of course they shouldn't as you have fitted them with chains/socks....& the rears will just freewheel along like a normal 2WD car with the Haldex disengaged...

 

There is a reason why the VAG books & that video state/show to use chains at the rear on a Haldex car...& I strongly suggest you understand it...

 

But like I said you should be fitting 3mpsf tyres before getting chains/socks especially to a AWD car....to get the most from it...

[Ootohere]

I have owned Haldex equiped cars, X-Drive cars, and AWD cars and Part Time AWD cars for more than 20 years and driven them as well as others for winters over 4 decades, 

so make the point of understanding them as all are automatics, and mine are up to the job but when driving others cars with there tyres or hire cars i know where the chains need to go, or for a few winters now the snow socks. 

But then i am not advising others how to use the equipment, just suggesting they learn how to for their vehicles.

 

When i learned to drive as a child in the North East and going to Loch Morlich every winter the cars were fitted with Town & County Tyres every winter.  My father towed caravans over the Lecht & the Devils Elbow in winter with those tyres.

That was back in the days when Lorry Drivers put Molasses & sand on the tyres or even course sugar when delivering in the North East in winter where they needed traction to get up or down hills on ice..  Plentiful from the distilleries.

Edited 4 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[fabdavrav]

13 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

 when driving others cars with there tyres or hire cars i know where the chains need to go, or for a few winters now the snow socks. 

But then i am not advising others how to use the equipment, just suggesting they learn how to for their vehicles.

 

Ok I'll put it simply....car with haldex fitted with summers.......I'd put chains on front to get steering & drive....as tyres rubbish

 

Car with haldex with 3mpsf tyres...I'd fit chains to rear...get drive & AWD & thus more grip & steering will be good due to correct tyres...anyway

Edited 5 March, 2018 by fabdavrav
clarity

[Ootohere]

Never had a hire car or demonstrator ever that had on winter tyres other than at a Land Rover, Ford Ranger, Subaru or Isuzu launch. 

Driven plenty away from auctions with various tyres, good or bad.   Luck of the draw.

[Ardbeg]

The past week turned into an inadvertant experiment testing a 2.0 ltr DSG car with all-season tyres and 18" wheels against a 2.0ltr DSG car with winter tyres and 16" wheels.  The former is a Passat Alltrack and the latter is a Yeti, which should be 4x4 but we discovered that the Haldex isn't working.  Hence inadvertant.

 

Before the snow got deep, the Yeti did brilliantly and I didn't realize it had a problem.  It was more stable and less slidey than the Passat. Then as the snow drifted in some places and became icier and more compacted in others, the four wheel drive, or lack thereof, started to matter.  The Yeti got stuck and the Passat didn't.  I slithered around on an icy, uphill road, but to the Yeti's credit, it made it.  The Passat made it more convincingly.  Nor could the Passat find a drift it didn't like, whereas we had to be a little careful about which ones we drove the Yeti into.  It still had the clearance and tyres to cope with more than most cars in the neighbourhood so we kept diving it into them avoiding stuck and strugglng vehicles. 

 

It would have been better with the Haldex working.

 

 

[Ashaz]

I still love the ending on this video.

 

 

[Ootohere]

No Automatic Panda with AWD.

The Subaru Justy was great.

1st choice would always be a Toyota Land Cruiser!

 

 

[Upsidedown]

Just to chime in again

 

I've done lots of driving in snow in the past with chains fitted to the front on front wheel drive and to the rears for rear wheel drive. Both systems proved equally effective, with the former perhaps losing out a bit to the latter when the uphill gets steep. That's when the front wheels start to scrabble a bit as the weight distribution heads rearwards. Fitting chains to the front tyres though is much easier than the rears. 4x4's wlth chains didn't get any further than I could except for when lack of ground clearance becomes an issue.

 

As for steering again, somewhat surprisingly I've noticed very little difference except for one occasion when the track was so slippery I could hardly stand up. Going back downhill at one stage looked as though it might be a suicide mission as I tried to get round one particularly nasty, tight steep downhill bend! In the end friends just quietly pushed the nose round until I was pointing in the correct direction to resume my travels.

 

Over the years (and many alcoholic beverages) there has been much debate at my ski club about which are the best wheels to fit chains to on 4x4's. No consensus has ever been arrived at. You just make your own choice.

 

Going back to the Yeti, the points being made re the Haldex in this context are interesting. However in my case I have no choice other than to fit chains to the rears as there physically isn't space for chains on the front.

[fabdavrav]

12 hours ago, Ardbeg said:

The past week turned into an inadvertant experiment testing a 2.0 ltr DSG car with all-season tyres and 18" wheels against a 2.0ltr DSG car with winter tyres and 16" wheels.  The former is a Passat Alltrack and the latter is a Yeti, which should be 4x4 but we discovered that the Haldex isn't working.  Hence inadvertant.

 

Before the snow got deep, the Yeti did brilliantly and I didn't realize it had a problem.  It was more stable and less slidey than the Passat. Then as the snow drifted in some places and became icier and more compacted in others, the four wheel drive, or lack thereof, started to matter.  The Yeti got stuck and the Passat didn't.  I slithered around on an icy, uphill road, but to the Yeti's credit, it made it.  The Passat made it more convincingly.  Nor could the Passat find a drift it didn't like, whereas we had to be a little careful about which ones we drove the Yeti into.  It still had the clearance and tyres to cope with more than most cars in the neighbourhood so we kept diving it into them avoiding stuck and strugglng vehicles. 

 

It would have been better with the Haldex working.

 

 

 

Thank you for posting relevant information re your observations on haldex working..& not working...

 

11 minutes ago, Upsidedown said:

Just to chime in again

 

I've done lots of driving in snow in the past with chains fitted to the front on front wheel drive and to the rears for rear wheel drive. Both systems proved equally effective, with the former perhaps losing out a bit to the latter when the uphill gets steep. That's when the front wheels start to scrabble a bit as the weight distribution heads rearwards. Fitting chains to the front tyres though is much easier than the rears. 4x4's wlth chains didn't get any further than I could except for when lack of ground clearance becomes an issue.

 

As for steering again, somewhat surprisingly I've noticed very little difference except for one occasion when the track was so slippery I could hardly stand up. Going back downhill at one stage looked as though it might be a suicide mission as I tried to get round one particularly nasty, tight steep downhill bend! In the end friends just quietly pushed the nose round until I was pointing in the correct direction to resume my travels.

 

Over the years (and many alcoholic beverages) there has been much debate at my ski club about which are the best wheels to fit chains to on 4x4's. No consensus has ever been arrived at. You just make your own choice.

 

Going back to the Yeti, the points being made re the Haldex in this context are interesting. However in my case I have no choice other than to fit chains to the rears as there physically isn't space for chains on the front.

 

 

Thanks...& I go back to why I posted the info. on the Haldex:-

 

Upsidedown said QUOTE:-

There is no need to change the wider / taller front tyres / wheels in order to fit snow chains - just put them on the rear ! (if you have 4x4 that is of course) See the following video

 

At about 35 seconds you'll see that they've fitted chains to the rear. This by the way is in line with Skoda recommendations (in NZ at least)

 

And before anybody asks, no sorry I don't know what tyres were being used.

 

END QUOTE

 

That car clearly has winter tyres on & I bet 3mpsf rated....& not just M+S....in their situation fitting chains to the rear as they have done & as Skoda recommends (in NZ according to poster), & as per the mechanical way the Haldex operates...to get the AWD to function fully & correctly & get full grip...chains on the rear....

 

Yes if you have cheap summers on all four wheels then fit chains to front......otherwise the above is best for the Haldex...

 

Many people get into trouble on the roads because they do not understand how & why the fancy electronics & Haldex/etc systems work...& in many cases they end up making the situation worse!!

[Ootohere]

So nearly everyone fitting Snow Chains will be doing it to drive on the road because they need them on and not to go hooning, 

unless they are getting used to fitting and driving on them.

& the 2 wheel drive cars will need them on the drive wheels and the part time AWD cars can be on what ever.

sorted.  All you need to do is have the chains, 1 or 2 pairs, have the conditions and go practice.

 

 

[fabdavrav]

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

That car clearly has winter tyres on & I bet 3mpsf rated....& not just M+S....in their situation fitting chains to the rear as they have done & as Skoda recommends (in NZ according to poster), & as per the mechanical way the Haldex operates...to get the AWD to function fully & correctly & get full grip...chains on the rear....

 

Yes if you have cheap summers on all four wheels then fit chains to front......otherwise the above is best for the Haldex...

 

Many people get into trouble on the roads because they do not understand how & why the fancy electronics & Haldex/etc systems work...& in many cases they end up making the situation worse!!

 

Further to above & something I purposely did not mention, to see if anyone else would...& they haven't....

 

If I had a Haldex car on summer tyres & had to fit one set of chains...I would in fact fit to the rear & Not the front...

 

WHY???

 

Because fitting to the rear means the fronts slip & thus the Haldex will activate (even with the new ones which are "proactive")...& drive torque will be sent to all 4 wheels....but without chains on front you lose steering right???

 

Not really, you forget that if you have all the grip at the front the rears just freewheel...so ALL the engine torque is trying to be put down via the front wheels only.....force the Haldex to activate & the engine torque is split (by whatever % the electronic controller decides) to all 4 wheels......thus less torque on fronts, so the fronts can steer easier (even without chains) as only having to cope mainly with steering & not as much engine power...

 

Again basic mechanical facts re the operation of the Haldex units...

[Ootohere]

Great theory. No doubt in practice it will be a location location location thing.  What goes up usually has to come down.

Go try it descending  from a Ski Centre in Continental Europe or someplace where you were required to fit snow chains and  see how confident you are steering and retarding forward motion.

 

Or like that scout cresting an up slope with the front wheels scrambling and the rear end pushing.

We can get into the conversation on Pullers, Pushers, and those that pull and push.

 

 

Edited 5 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[fabdavrav]

26 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Great theory. No doubt in practice it will be a location location location thing.  What goes up usually has to come down.

Go try it descending  from a Ski Centre in Continental Europe or someplace where you were required to fit snow chains and  see how confident you are steering and retarding forward motion.

 

Or like that scout cresting an up slope with the front wheels scrambling and the rear end pushing.

We can get into the conversation on Pullers, Pushers, and those that pull and push.

 

 

Couple of points...IF you watch the videos carefully....

 

The video you show with the Octavia Scout & the snow chains on the front wheels.....you can clearly see by the kick up of snow & rotation of the rear wheels matching the fronts that the rear & thus the Haldex only activates when he flings the car around & accelerates quickly.....this is when the Haldex will activate as in the basic set parameters of the control module...

 

All other times in the video in that section the rears are hardly kicking any snow up & you can see a slower rotational speed, especially when he goes up the slope..thus the Haldex has not activated due to front end grip..so 2WD...

 

 

The video the other poster linked to which has the Yeti with chains fitted to the rear:-..he drives up hill, along, down hill, does across slope turns facing downhill...no straight on slip....& all wheels kicking up the same amount of snow...thus FULL 4WD & full grip...thus making FULL use of the Haldex AWD system...i.e. torque spread across the 4 wheels...

 

[Ootohere]

Show the ones where they drive in control between a set of cones so within limits, or on the side of a carriageway where other traffic is coming towards, where the vehicles can not swing its back end about and the cars has to be withing a few inches either side in control 

while under driving.

 

Descending,

ie going down hill, sometimes no accelerator or light throttle , coasting function these days which you might well want off.

  as to torque which wheels is that being applied to on a descent with a FWD or a RWD 

or a Part Time AWD.   Haldex Front with Rear Assistance,  X-Drive with Rear & then front, or Mercedes some Rear with front coming in or the CLA 45's Front drivers with rear coming in.

 

All you are looking for is Traction, dig in and drive, forward or back.

No spinning, no scrabbling for traction and action, just getting around, it is not rally driving.

There is no need to dig holes kick up snow, slip and slide on ice and risk flailing chains.

Edited 5 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki