Engine mounts / Dogone / Engine movement / Clonk sound

[rum4mo]

Have you ever tried grabbing the engine from above and rocking it? I would think that you have, and if so, have you got any ideas as to where the noises it makes when you do that are coming from and if they are significant. Also, have you tried grabbing the 2 gear change cables and moving them to see what noises they can make and are these noises relevant?  Maybe time for me to get my wife to try to rock the engine while I sit inside the car!

[rum4mo]

Well, I have succeeded to getting my wife to rock the engine front<>rear and sat inside the car and can hear what sounds very much like the clunking noises that I hear when driving that car, but that does not solve anything unless next Monday, when the car is in the VW dealership's workshop, I can force/request the tech to listen to that and give me a reasonable answer as that car only started making these noises maybe 9 months ago.  Grabbing the gear shift cables - well my wife is not tall enough to reach down there while I sit in the car, so that can wait until I get some other help!

[duplisak]

12 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Well, I have succeeded to getting my wife to rock the engine front<>rear and sat inside the car and can hear what sounds very much like the clunking noises that I hear when driving that car, but that does not solve anything unless next Monday, when the car is in the VW dealership's workshop, I can force/request the tech to listen to that and give me a reasonable answer as that car only started making these noises maybe 9 months ago.  Grabbing the gear shift cables - well my wife is not tall enough to reach down there while I sit in the car, so that can wait until I get some other help!

I will try to reach the cables

[rum4mo]

Well the day has come for my wife's August 2015 Polo 1.2TSI 110PS to get handed over to the local VW dealer to sort out a clunking noise that is worst in warm/hot weather - today's temperature was 13.5C when I drove to the VW dealer and really no clunking noises to be heard.  Anyway I had drafted a short run down of what the issue was and under what conditions it showed up etc, then maybe stupidly added in bold print that this issue should get sorted out in the first visit, ie no funny stuff like "come back if it is still making that noise" - so, the bad news is that after drifting around for 6 hours as we do not live very local to that dealer, they requested that they keep the car over night as it seems that they do not have all the parts required in stock, I'm thinking that means either a front wishbone rear mounting bush, or top rubber mounts for the struts.  So it was back home by bus, to be continued tomorrow!  Mean while I need to get the summer wheels on my car and get it down off its jack stands as it is getting an outing tomorrow hopefully!

[rum4mo]

Well the car is back home, I have not driven it as I drove my wife down to pick it up.

 

I requested and was given a copy of the work sheet which outlined all the parts used:- so a front strut rubber top mounting along with its bearing were replaced along with all nuts and bolts, and a lower track control arm or lower wishbone rear rubber mount was replaced along with all nuts and bolts - I'm guessing here that all this work was carried out on the LHS (O/S) of this car, and I'm also guessing that that rubber mounting that I reported to being split was split by the car attacking too many potholes which could be said to be accidental damage and not warranty repair work - I did ask that question when booking the car in, but was told it would all be covered by the car's warranty.

 

Now here is the curious thing, the LHS (O/S) TRE was also replaced along with its nut and locking nut and a few more bolts that I can't find a home for!  This part of the repair might have been down to the service receptionist not understanding what I was explaining to her when the car was being booked in, this disjointed description was repeated back to my wife the day before the car was handed in, so, I created a word doc outlining what I was reporting was wrong with that car from my point of view and what I had checked and when this problem was at its worst, ie in hotter weather and/or the car engine heated up, a copy of this document was given to the service receptionist and my reasons for providing it was explained, ie I thought that the fault being logged was not what I was booking the car in for, also, I left a copy of that document on the passenger's seat of the car.

 

So was this second operation to investigate the "track control arm end bush split" just down to the service receptionist not taking on board what I was saying to her even after repeating it again - ie she kept changing the lower wishbone/TCA to TRE?  If so, that would be very annoying as there is no mention of wheel alignment being corrected after this maybe unnecessary work was carried out - and if I now find that there is uneven tyre wear I'll not be too happy.

 

Oh, and copper grease seems to get used quite a bit, or at least it ends up on the tech's gloves, sorted that out with some Autoglym Clean Machine though.

[rum4mo]

So, to other people that own and run a small VW Group car, ie Fabia, Polo or Ibiza fitted with the EA211 1.2TSI 16V 110PS petrol engine together with a 6 speed gearbox, have you or can you try grabbing the engine by the rear of the air filter box and maybe the 3 pipes sticking out part - with the engine stopped and the car out of gear, and then rock it violently back<>and forth - does it make interesting noises and where are these noises coming from?  Also, after doing that, try reaching down and grabbing both gear shift cables in one hand and move them up<>down and side<>side - do they make interesting noises and are you sure that they are not contributing to general in car noises?  Thanks.

[rum4mo]

Seeing as I can't edit old postings, I'll confirm here that I messed up and called LHS (O/S) twice in my posting above, when it should have been LHS (N/S) as I am in UK, so that means that all the rubber parts deemed to have been causing these noises are on the side of the vehicle nearest the kerb side of the road, so probably worst place for driving through potholes - well before potholes spread to cover the entire roads as is the case nowadays!

[rum4mo]

Well after the August 2015 Polo 1.2TSI 110PS SEL was handed into Edinburgh's finest VW emporium and had some parts changed - it is still clunking as it did before it spent 27 hours in the care of its maker's agents!

 

I still think that the root cause of this clunking lies in the way the power train is fixed/floated within the car's frame, and that I suppose means that nothing can be done by replacing parts with same but newer parts, fixing this might rely on independent suppliers providing firmer but still compliant kits of powertrain mounts!

 

Unless anyone knows better, I'd doubt if the technical might of VW Group are really too bothered about this sort of issue, though I'm tempted to start a dialogue with them while the car is still under warranty.

[duplisak]

I agree. It is a fault. VW will never fix this since it is common across all audi,vw,seat,skoda line of vehicles.

 

Poor poor poor design and engineering. My vehicle clunks like a truck with 16 gears.

 

I got a reply from the main dealer here in my coutry. Ang guess what: it is a characteristic of the vehicle.

 

If I had the money I would get a proper enginer that would prove this is not normal and sue them. 

 

VW has a lot of recall problem. I still believe this is one of them. They simply wont agree that is the case. It would hurt them. 

 

So us as consumers are f... from all sides. We gave them money now we are stuck with these cars that ratle and clunk.

 

Sure we can sell them for dirt cheap.

 

For instance i bought my Fabia 1.0 tsi for 14.000 euros. 

 

Just after 4 months they are giving mr 10.300 eur for it if I would sell.

 

They claimed that they have tried to fix the problem but it is a characteristic. It is the easiest way for them to avoid any repair.

 

I will be honest here. They are true delalers who care only about money.

 

This dealer is: Skoda Verovskova here in Slovenia. 

 

The people who "helped " with my case are:

Matjaz Mlakar ( head of sales for Skoda )

 

 

I would be happy if in the future someone shakes Skodas chair and all lying people get fired since no help from them to satisfy the customer was made.

 

All these things are swept under the rug and people need to know that and STOP buying VW,Skoda vehicles.

 

I can not express enough how dissatisfied I am. And there is not one legal step I could do for me to get my money back since I paid 7.200 eut on the spot and the rest in 3 years .

 

If I would pay only 500euros from the start I would leave the vehicle there and let them knom to f... themselves.

 

I am one step away frok going to local TV station and make some damage

 

 

[rum4mo]

Yes I agree with you there! 

I have discovered that the copper grease seems to have been used on the LHS powertrain mounting, ie the gearbox top mounting, though how much use that will have been or even should the tech be using copper grease on rubber bonded mounting?

I have not checked all the other powertrain rubber mountings yet or the ARB mounting bushes for traces of copper grease.

My main complaint at this visit is that the service receptionist is really in control, she/he talks to you the customer, if she/he does not understand much about cars or think that they know what you are saying when they don't, the work sheet that gets passed to the tech, who the service desk staff think is stupid or inferior so the tech does what he has been cleared to do - I tried to improve on their way of working by writing a document explaining what I had found - the tech seemed to use that for the first part of the investigation/repair but then seemed to do some other unrelated work as defined by the work sheet from service reception - now the f--k will that end up solving our problems, some things need to be changed and these changes need to start at sorting out the quality of people working at service reception as they are the initial interface between customer and the service facility!!

[duplisak]

12 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Yes I agree with you there! 

I have discovered that the copper grease seems to have been used on the LHS powertrain mounting, ie the gearbox top mounting, though how much use that will have been or even should the tech be using copper grease on rubber bonded mounting?

I have not checked all the other powertrain rubber mountings yet or the ARB mounting bushes for traces of copper grease.

My main complaint at this visit is that the service receptionist is really in control, she/he talks to you the customer, if she/he does not understand much about cars or think that they know what you are saying when they don't, the work sheet that gets passed to the tech, who the service desk staff think is stupid or inferior so the tech does what he has been cleared to do - I tried to improve on their way of working by writing a document explaining what I had found - the tech seemed to use that for the first part of the investigation/repair but then seemed to do some other unrelated work as defined by the work sheet from service reception - now the f--k will that end up solving our problems, some things need to be changed and these changes need to start at sorting out the quality of people working at service reception as they are the initial interface between customer and the service facility!!

 

The repair center here in my country is a laug. The guy who deals with the papers for repairs does not have a clue about simple mechanics. Also the sales person is a economist at best.

 

I could not talk to the mechanic so we could sort this **** out in 5 minutes. I am aware the mechanic is under contract and he is not allowed to talk to customers. It is obvious that a lot of things are hidden from us.

 

For instance my friend owns a Skoda Rapid. When going to do a annaul service ( oil, filters ) he discovered they did not replace the filter. They just wiped the old one clean.

 

That's why it botheres me I do not see my car when it is being repaired. I dont see the parts that go in.

 

A lot of people should get fired or questioned at best. here at Skoda in Slovenija. The PRO level is a laugh. They all think we all 25 year old females who do not know nothing about mechanics.

 

For sure I am going to TV stations when I have the time. Enough is enough. VW and Skoda should pay more attention. And I am sure the guys at Checz republic in Skoda factory don't know how much damage these bimbos at Skoda delalers are doing to the customers. 

 

I will never buy Skoda or VW ever again. I will sell the the car as soon it is payed of. 

 

Once again who ever is reading this ( from Slovenija ). Stay away from Skoda dealers in Ljubljana ( Verovskova ). They will ripp you off 

[ettlz]

18 hours ago, rum4mo said:

Unless anyone knows better, I'd doubt if the technical might of VW Group are really too bothered about this sort of issue, though I'm tempted to start a dialogue with them while the car is still under warranty.

 

Half the battle seems to be convincing someone who can do it under warranty that this is not normal, and "another car did it" is not a good enough answer. I've had this before on other issues, which eventually got worse and did get fixed. And while not a mechanic, I'm pretty much always right when it comes to identifying that something is amiss.

 

Mine's currently booked in for another examination. It did it before and the gearbox mount was replaced. This fixed it for about a week. Apparently the procedure is to first try applying some particular type of grease (I don't know specifically which), then if that doesn't solve it replace the mount. So I know of the existence of a procedure, which in turn seems to imply... well, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

 

Let me know how you get on with VW Technical -- I might have a go at Skoda depending on what happens. I wonder if I'll get through to someone with a degree in mechanical engineering who understands 'critical damping'... Feel free to PM me anything 'too hot' for the public forum

Edited 6 July, 2018 by ettlz

[rum4mo]

On ‎06‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 10:35, ettlz said:

 

Mine's currently booked in for another examination. It did it before and the gearbox mount was replaced. This fixed it for about a week. Apparently the procedure is to first try applying some particular type of grease (I don't know specifically which), then if that doesn't solve it replace the mount. So I know of the existence of a procedure, which in turn seems to imply... well, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

 

Let me know how you get on with VW Technical -- I might have a go at Skoda depending on what happens. I wonder if I'll get through to someone with a degree in mechanical engineering who understands 'critical damping'... Feel free to PM me anything 'too hot' for the public forum

 

Oh, so now I'll need to waste more time booking it in to get the gearbox mounting replaced now that it has been "looked at with copper grease" - then wait for the next source of noises.

Maybe strange to say, or not, for the first 20 miles after the dealership workshop visit the car was very quiet like it had been up to about 9 months ago, and that is with higher ambient temperatures.

Edited 7 July, 2018 by rum4mo

[ettlz]

25 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Maybe strange to say, or not, for the first 20 miles after the dealership workshop visit the car was very quiet like it had been up to about 9 months ago, and that is with higher ambient temperatures.

 

Aside from being quieter the main thing I noticed was how much more smooth and tight it felt, especially when the clutch was becoming fully engaged.

 

That it's happening again leads me to suspect the gearbox mount isn't really up to it, and/or another mount (probably dogbone) isn't pulling its weight and causing premature failure on the others.

 

Does anyone else get slight, lumpy, irregular vibrations in the cockpit when the engine is warm, gearbox neutral, and the revs held around 1100rpm?

[duplisak]

I also have jumpy neutral vibrations 

 

Also changed all 3 engine mounts. Something is wrong

[ettlz]

2 hours ago, duplisak said:

I also have jumpy neutral vibrations 

 

Also changed all 3 engine mounts. Something is wrong

 

But isn't yours the 3 cylinder 1.0? The old 1.2 3-cyls had a contra-rotating balancer shaft, but I think they removed it in current engines to save weight and friction.

[rum4mo]

I've now worked out what the extra bolts that were supplied for my warranty job were for, they are all the bolts holding the gearbox mounting to the gearbox and the console plus the bolts holding the console to the car, so the copper grease will have been used to try to get rid of the clunking - question is, is it really worth me wasting my time booking that car back in, driving it to the dealership, getting a bus home, then hours later or next day reversing that procedure?  Or do I wait until I see the gearbox mounting part number changing then order one in along with the 2+3+3 new bolts and replace it myself?

 

Other thing that I have discovered, some people have been complaining about the clunk from the clutch area, I see that the 1.2TSI 16V engines have a traditional clutch release bearing and arm with an external slave cylinder, but the 1.0 and 1.4 engines have a hydraulic release bearing/slave cylinder assembly, so which type was thought/known to cause the clunking noises that were evident on some Fabias/Polos and the smaller car?

[rum4mo]

Yet another posting on this subject, I have been checking part numbers of gearbox mountings as the one used with the 1.2TSI engines is very compliant and what I've found out is, the version of gearbox mounting used is the "AS" one and this version used to be fitted to 2002> Polo/Fabia fitted with the 1.4 3 cylinder TDI engines AMF and BAY, it was also fitted to Polo/Fabia fitted with the 1.9 4 cylinder SDI engine ASY.

The other version "AR" was used with all other engines, now my wife's old 2002 Petrol engined Polo had quite a stiff gearbox mounting, which is the "AR" version, so I wonder if retro fitting that would solve these clunking issues without adding in any unacceptable roughness getting through into the passenger cell?

It does look like VW Group needs to stop messing around and being cheap skates and maybe adding in another version of these mountings, ie less compliant than the "AS" version and slightly more compliant that the "AR" version, maybe buying/fitting an aftermarket, ie "poly" version is the answer?

[rum4mo]

23 hours ago, ettlz said:

 

Aside from being quieter the main thing I noticed was how much more smooth and tight it felt, especially when the clutch was becoming fully engaged.

 

That it's happening again leads me to suspect the gearbox mount isn't really up to it, and/or another mount (probably dogbone) isn't pulling its weight and causing premature failure on the others.

 

Does anyone else get slight, lumpy, irregular vibrations in the cockpit when the engine is warm, gearbox neutral, and the revs held around 1100rpm?

 

ettlz, I have just been out to check the part number of the gearbox mounting on my wife's Polo, ie the mounting that was fitted at the factory in South Africa as it is a RHD 5 door Polo, and that part number is 6Q0 199 555 AR - now as I've written earlier, the current EKTA parts listings shows that that car should be fitted with a 6Q0 199 555 AS if/when that mounting is replaced, so I was wrong in my assumption that that car presently has a 6Q0 199 555 AS and it might be better to fit a 6Q0 199 555 AR!!  So as both these variants of gearbox mountings have existed since 2002 it is true that they are used with different engines in the earlier Polos etc, the 6Q0 199 555 AR being fitted to normally aspirated petrol engines and 6Q0 199 555 AS being fitted to 1.4TDI and 1.9SDI derv engines - and not just an update of an earlier part, ie AR being updated to AS.

 

So, which variant of gearbox mounting is now fitted to your Fabia, I would think that it had a 6Q0 199 555 AR fitted at factory, that was removed and greased and refitted at your first garage visit and then they replaced it with a 6Q0 199 555 AS variant - can you check up if that is the case, it is easy to read off the gearbox mounting part number from the engine compartment, thanks. (how you can successfully grease a one piece rubber mounting with a steel bar bonded into it beggars belief, but as you found and I did, that is the first step to stop that clunking, I'm still not sure if as in my case, copper grease was the smartest thing to use to stop any rubber<>rubber of the same single piece, making noises when contacting each other), I'm guessing that the clunking comes from the rubber element hitting off the front/rear of that mountings steel frame on maximum movement from the nominal position.

[ettlz]

Mine currently has the AR variant.

[rum4mo]

I don't know how Skoda are dealing with this, and I can't check as the VW Group on line parts listing I use has not been updated to include the MK3 Fabia or the similar Ibiza, but, from looking up the VW Polo section, the correct gearbox rear left - ie the large top mounting, it is the AS variant that is now listed to fit if/when replacing it. Checking the older 2003 Polos, the AR variant still is the part to replace that mounting on a petrol engine car, and the AS variant is the part to replace that mounting on a TDI and SDI engined car - so both versions still exist and there are situations where the AR is still the "correct" version to fit on replacement and situations where the AS variant is still the correct one to fit on replacement - and in the case of the 6C Polo with the 1.2TSI where the AR version was fitted at factory, the advice is to fit an AS version on replacement, I just hope that my dealership replaces that AR version and replaces it with a new AS version just to see if that helps at all.

That car has been booked back in for next Wednesday, ie 18th July for that repeat warranty work, MOT test and year 3 service.

 

Edit:- oh sorry, thanks for confirming the version of gearbox mounting currently fitted to your car after it has been replaced under warranty due to clunking!

Edited 9 July, 2018 by rum4mo

[ettlz]

Mine's been quiet and smooth these past 2 days. I wonder if the heatwave has had an effect on the mount materials? It's much cooler today so I'll see what happens this evening and tomorrow.

 

I'm going to name this 'carthritis'.

 

(Either that or it sonehow got wind of being booked in... I swear with this one it's like taking a bloody cat to the vets.)

Edited 10 July, 2018 by ettlz

[rum4mo]

While I was out in my car driving down to the VW dealership to book the Polo back in again as well as booking its first MOT and final service of the prepaid service package, I received a message from my wife, who was out in her Polo to meet a friend for coffee, the message said "no clunking noises today" - I ignored that as I'm guessing that it will come and go, and continued with my plan to hand it back it for a look at this issue which should be, based on your experience, a quick replacement gearbox mounting and I'm hoping that I will end up with an AS version this time.

 

By the way, I said in an earlier posting that the break down of tasks and parts used indicated that a track rod end had been replaced as requested incorrectly in the worksheet from service reception, now that I've had the car up on jack stands with all wheels off, to make replacing the brake fluid easy, I can now say that no track rod end has been replaced, which is fair enough as they were not faulty, just the service receptionist's incorrect interpretation of what I had discovered on this car.

Edited 10 July, 2018 by rum4mo

[ettlz]

21 hours ago, rum4mo said:

While I was out in my car driving down to the VW dealership to book the Polo back in again as well as booking its first MOT and final service of the prepaid service package, I received a message from my wife, who was out in her Polo to meet a friend for coffee, the message said "no clunking noises today" - I ignored that as I'm guessing that it will come and go

 

Has it come back yet? Odd if it quietened down over the past few days, like mine; other than >30C outside temperatures I wonder what common factors are involved. Mine behaved itself this morning... I'll check again this lunchtime. Otherwise there won't be much point having the tech investigate what can't be replicated.

[rum4mo]

Oh yes it has come back, but I was guessing that once this has been reported and it seems to be a known issue with these cars, that at the 2nd visit time is not wasted and that mounting just gets replaced ?

Edited 11 July, 2018 by rum4mo