Look online, and you'll find a plethora of opinions about fuel - including on this forum.

 

Tesco fuel is rubbish, so we're told by many commenters; as is Shell, say almost as many others.

 

Interestingly, despite these statements often being made with great passion, they don't seem to be made with a great deal of objectivity. To my eye, many forego fuels based on rumours about chemical composition, but without stating clearly what those compositions are. Others base it on experience; with statements along the lines of "I put fuel X in my tank and got 30 mpg, then fuel Y in my tank and got 35 mpg. Therefore fuel Y is better". It's of course great to experiment, but that's perhaps not a fair test (you could, for example, sub-consciously adapt your driving style to favour a new fuel, increasing the mpg. There's also inherent variation - you won't be driving exactly the same route in the same conditions). I've even seen people claim Shell petrol is better than Tesco petrol because of the colour difference, but they didn't seem to know why a different colour would be better/worse!

 

A big problem, as far as I can see, is a lack of reliable data. Having searched online for reliable details of fuels' chemical constituents, I can mostly only find outdated information, or data sheets not directly related to the fuels in question. Experimental evidence on fuel performance seems remarkably scarce, too. I wonder if there's a good reason for this.

 

So, I thought it'd be fun to start a thread pulling together the combined might of the Briskodians to get to the bottom of this fuel thing. All opinions are welcome - and if we could throw some evidence into the mix, that'd be rather good, too! I'll get the ball rolling with a few questions that have been floating around in my head:

 

• Is there an objective difference between supermarket petrol/diesel and non-supermarket (e.g. Shell) petrol/diesel. If so, how does this affect engine performance/longevity?

 

• Is there within-supermarket and within-non-supermarket variation in fuel composition/quality? Is Asda better than Tesco, for example?

 

• Is Shell V-Power petrol any different to Tesco Momentum petrol? If so, how exactly? How does this affect engine performance/longevity?

 

• Is fancy diesel (e.g. Shell V-Power diesel) worth it?

 

FYI: I have a mighty 2012 1.2 HTP Fabia (60 HP), and I always put either Tesco Momentum or Shell V-Power in it. This isn't necessarily rational - I just love my car and like to treat it!

I tend to use Tesco Green energy 99ron in my Octavia and Superb - basically if I use 95ron petrol I can sometimes hear a slight "pinking" , when I use the higher octane fuel I don't. In my mind pinking = future damge so I stick to the higher octane fuel.

 

Most people (including mrs bigjohn), can't hear the pinking  as engine bays are so well soundproofed these day - but I can (after my mis spent youth tuning engines). 

 

Looking back over my Spritmonitor figures fuel economy don't seem to improve that much with higher Octane petrol though,  however bottom end pull feels smoother.

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by bigjohn

I'll tell you one thing for free, this debate won't end all fuel debates...

 

I once heard a teacher talking about how he'd left industry (chemical/fuel) because he got fed up with testing the same fuel over and over again to try to get a result that met spec.  Doesn't inspire a huge deal of confidence in the integrity of the fuel producing companies: Not massively surprising though.

 

Crude oil has huge content variability depending on where it comes from (and when) , crude oil prices will be a key driver in where fuel producers source their raw materials, these will change regularly.  What I'm getting at is that there will not necessarily be any real consistency over time even within one fuel from one brand.

 

 

GREENERGY part owned by Tesco produce Tesco Momentum 99 & fuel for others Unleaded & Diesel.

http://greenergy.com/uk/independent 

 

GREENERGY & Royal Dutch Shell that produce / wholesale Shell V-Power Nitro + Super Unleaded or Shell V-Power Diesel or Fuel Saver Petrol or Diesel 

co-own Import & distribution facilities in the UK.

 

*So with 'much cheapness' COSTCO Super Unleaded 99 ron,  does that more likely come from GREENERGY or Royal Dutch Shell?*

 

Your 95 ron, or 97 or 99 are the same base fuel with additives & ethanol and detergent packages & the minimum octane, 

as are Diesel or Premium Diesel, check out what Cetane you are buying.

 

Just pay your money and make your own decisions,  Super Unleaded at 10 pence a litre less at Super Markets or buy the 'Major Brand' with the same minimum octane,  same with Diesel or Premium Diesel.  or buy standard diesel and add your own additives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating 

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by Offski

bigjohn, interesting that you hear 'pinking' (by which, I assume you mean knocking?) with lower octane fuel. I'd have thought the ECU would respond to feedback from the knock sensors to bring performance down so the knocking disappeared? Interesting also that you don't see an improvement in mpg with higher octane in your turbo-charged engine, since that's supposed to be one of the major selling points of the higher octane fuels.

 

Wino, indeed, there's huge variation in petroleum stock, but (theoretically at least), fuel coming out of the pump should be largely consistent in terms of how it'll perform in the engine - hence why the teacher had to spend so long on quality control (I could be wrong!). And nothing wrong with an ambitious title to catch the eye!

 

Offski, thanks for links. I guess I was trying to incorporate objectivity into my decision making - and I also thought it would be interesting to assess general awareness regarding fuels. The issue with Greenergy's MSDS is that it doesn't provide a breakdown of chemical constituents, and I can't find an up-to-date one for Shell V-Power, either. The point being: many people e.g. eschew Momentum for V-Power, or vice versa, but there doesn't seem to be a rational basis for this, since there are no reliable data?

If you’re looking for a chemical composition of fuel X compared to fuel Y you won’t get one. Marketing claims are rarely accurate hence why they compare against their own regular grade fuel or a leading brand without naming it. 

I’ve mainly used, around 98%, of the time filled up with Tesco or Morrisons diesel but use an annual fuel system cleaner. Over decades and 100’s of thousands miles I’ve never had an EGR, injector, fuel pump or turbo fail. In fact all my issues have been related to brakes, fixings but mainly electrical issues. Make what you will out of that!

The fuel debate will continue until until combustion engines are outlawed then it will be EDF electric is better than Npower because their adverts suggests it is. 

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by CWARD

The reliable data is the data a driver gets, they know how they drive, where they drive and what fuel they buy, and every tank fill tells a story.

You have 52 weeks of the year where you drive to see which fuel does what and when winter fuel has an affect or not, or higher octane petrol.

 

100-102 ron in Continental Europe is lovely stuff as is 99 ron minimum in the UK which might sometimes be 100 octane as well.

 

http://volkswagen.co.uk/need-help/owners/Fuel 

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by Offski

Wasn't quality control he was on about, it was fiddling the figures by using only the best out of a long sequence of experimental results, pretending the other results didn't happen!

Tesco at least published the results of the testing they had carried out for them on various engine types and using their 95 ron against 99 ron and competitors fuels. All about emissions & maybe not the results they wanted, but it is what they paid to get.

Pity they took them down.

 

Just as well i saved them.

 

6ca06d648b9541e78fa838fece4a1a23 (1).pdf

388380a097b04fe693a8c27db8bb4974 (1).pdf

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by Offski

1 hour ago, CWARD said:

If you’re looking for a chemical composition of fuel X compared to fuel Y you won’t get one.

 

You might. Some MSDS allude to the composition, and include the all-important fuel density data: https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/products-services/fuels/regular-fuels/MSDS Link 95.pdf

 

Tesco also published results of an experiment they did a while back, in which they provided basic fuel attributes, as Offski posted.

 

I do agree it's extremely difficult to find decent, consistent data!

3 hours ago, Chilli1 said:

FYI: I have a mighty 2012 1.2 HTP Fabia (60 HP), and I always put either Tesco Momentum or Shell V-Power in it. This isn't necessarily rational - I just love my car and like to treat it!

 

Chilli1,

Read your owner's manual and check carefully the wording specified on the inside of the fuel filler flap.

 

On vehicles using prescribed petrol of  min. 95  RON, the use of petrol with a higher octane number than  95  RON can increase the power and reduce fuel consumption.

 

If like my 1.2htp, it's states 95/91RON then there is no power or economy benefit to using higher octane rating.

 

My 1.2tsi and 1.4tsi cars state min 95, so can benefit, how much is not stated anywhere.

 

High performance engines e.g 2.0 tsi state 98 (95) RON,  98 is clearly stated as the recommended fuel, basically you will suffer power and economy loss with 95.

 

(Super fuels may or may not have greater cleaning abilities due to their additive package)

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by xman

5 minutes ago, Chilli1 said:

 

You might. Some MSDS allude to the composition, and include the all-important fuel density data: https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/products-services/fuels/regular-fuels/MSDS Link 95.pdf

 

Tesco also published results of an experiment they did a while back, in which they provided basic fuel attributes, as Offski posted.

 

I do agree it's extremely difficult to find decent, consistent data!

 

An Australian data sheet is totally irrelevant to fuels in the UK.

1 hour ago, Offski said:

The reliable data is the data a driver gets, they know how they drive, where they drive and what fuel they buy, and every tank fill tells a story.

 

Until those data are quantified and reproduced, they can't be considered reliable. What you've described is more a qualitative, 'personal experience'-based approach.

 

As a scientist, I guess I'm looking for something a bit more meaty!

 

Of course, that's not to say those data aren't interesting, or of value - and indeed it's great that people are conducting these tests and sharing the results!

 

42 minutes ago, Offski said:

Tesco at least published the results of the testing they had carried out for them on various engine types and using their 95 ron against 99 ron and competitors fuels. All about emissions & maybe not the results they wanted, but it is what they paid to get.

Pity they took them down.

 

Just as well i saved them.

 

6ca06d648b9541e78fa838fece4a1a23 (1).pdf

388380a097b04fe693a8c27db8bb4974 (1).pdf

 

Fantastic! I remember reading those a while back and had been looking for them! Thanks for sharing.

 

I wonder why Tesco took them down. I guess the experiments weren't very scientific - poorly controlled and not really adhering to the scientific method by following one fuel with the other in the same engine.

 

As I remember, they didn't repeat the tests either - so each condition was only measured once. Quite poor on the scientific rigour front.

 

But what they did publish was comparative fuel densities etc. which are of interest.

 

I wonder if they took them down because the main test alternative fuel was the old-style V-Power so the results can't be considered relevant/valid anymore...

1 hour ago, Wino said:

Wasn't quality control he was on about, it was fiddling the figures by using only the best out of a long sequence of experimental results, pretending the other results didn't happen!

 

Ah, well, that's a different story. Unfortunately it's one not limited to the oil industry. I can't say more than that without opening myself up to liability!

UK Shell V-power was 98 ron minimum in 2012, ,  then 2013 Shell V-Power Nitro + in the UK & 99 ron, 

but then Shell V-Power or V-Power Nitro can be different in Continental Europe, and when Shell had an advert with a F1 car running 'Pump Fuel' they never mentioned what Shell V-Power was sold at pumps near the Ferrari and other Test tracks and Factories and elsewhere, 

it was not only 98 octane.

(Formula Shell was sharn when they introduced that, as those with engines that failed know.)

 

 

What ever the testing EMISSIONS ANALYTICS carried out for TESCO PLC will be much as the UK Government are trusting them to provide.

The will be doing lots of UK Government contracts. If it is poorly controlled that will be par for the course with Government Contractors.

 

You want to look at the UK still getting Winter Grade fuel when the European Refiners have stopped producing and the butane prices are low.

 

It was cars and engines that were hanging on the end of chains not petrol pumps.

Someone was sniffing petrol in the Netherlands or smoking too much maybe.

 

 

 

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by Offski

East Coast refiners profit on winter gasoline at expense of summer stocks _ Reuters.mhtml

31 minutes ago, xman said:

 

If like my 1.2htp, it's states 95/91RON then there is no power or economy benefit to using higher octane rating.

 

 

Agreed - there probably isn't any benefit going from 95 to 99 RON in an engine with a compression ratio of 10.5:1.

 

More important to me, because of that, is fuel density and additives.

 

Tesco state that Momentum has higher fuel density than their standard fuel, and indeed higher density than the old-style V-Power. So, even if the engine isn't taking advantage of the higher octane, it should still be going further on a higher density fuel by virtue of basic physics.

 

Really not sure about the detergents etc. - I get what they're saying about keeping things clean and lubing combustion surfaces, but no idea on whether this works.

35 minutes ago, xman said:

 

An Australian data sheet is totally irrelevant to fuels in the UK.

 

I alluded to that in my OP where I wrote " I can mostly only find outdated information, or data sheets not directly related to the fuels in question ". I was really just using that MSDS as an example that it should be possible to find the UK equivalent. Or not, as the case may be!

A member posted Data & fuel formulations in a post in a thread in this section a couple of years back & so did i.

I posted Tesco 95 & 99, and TEXACO, and i can not remember the others posted.

Some of the stuff was from Norway as far as i remember.

 

Point is it is Fuel.  I know the fuel consumption of every vehicle i have ever driven since i first legally started driving on the road and that was pre unleaded.

Also know how the cars, bikes, karts etc perform on different fuels, after all not much else to think about when driving alone and paying attention to the road and the cost of the trip & when fuel is next needed.

PS

The  new VW Group cars will leave the factory with VW 508 / 509 oil.   This is for the sake of the WLTP and lower fuel consumption and emissions.

 

More expense buying oil obviously unless main dealership keep the servicing price the same even with the Oil costing them more, so unlikely, 

but then will all be using VW 508 / 509 or will some still use VW 504/507

7 minutes ago, Offski said:

The  new VW Group cars will leave the factory with VW 508 / 509 oil.  

 

Will be interesting to see if excessive oil consumption cases increase.

 

Supermarket fuel is cheaper. Shell V power is expensive and only beneficial in the rally car for road rallies. Unless you have a performance car I see no benefit. Just drop in some Millers now and again to clean things up.

I put the cheapest in, end of!

 

The question always asked (in my head) why are the prices so widly different?  Many folk have tried to explain this but failed to convince me but it's all a load of twaddle.

My cousin lives on the South coast near a refinery/depot, they say the futher away you live from one of those the higher the transporting costs can be passed over to the customer, he pays an astronomical cost at the pump, he always fills up in Derby when he visits us, way way cheaper. Asda right now petrol near me 121.7p,  Tamworth 116.7p which isn't a million miles away.

Last year (could have been the year before) Asda said it would charge an equal price across all of it's stores for fuel, yeah right go figure. I can go 8 miles down the road still in Derbys and it's 119.7p the manager there (again Asda) said because we are a smaller town (Swadlincote) we can charge less, again go figure.

 

Bit like car insurance, charge what they can get away with.

Edited 8 July, 20187 yr by MickA

Some areas get the Fuel Subsidy from the Government / Tax Payers,  that includes post code area EX35 / Devon.

http://gov.uk/government/news/rural-fuel-price-cut-begins 

2 hours ago, Offski said:

It was cars and engines that were hanging on the end of chains not petrol pumps.

Someone was sniffing petrol in the Netherlands or smoking too much maybe.

 

I bet they regretted pushing the boat out on those adverts!

 

I seem to remember hearing it was the Met Police that finally convinced Shell they had a problem with Formula Shell. Apparently Shell could no longer ignore the issue because the Met always bought their cars new and kept them well maintained - filled only with Formula Shell and valves started melting,... oops!