England EV Charging points, a proposal. & location & news on new charging hubs in England & Wales.

[lol-lol]

2 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

Seems counter intuitive when Tesla are applying pressure on price.

 

Desperate to recover their massive capital expenditure before TESLA wipe the floor with them.

 

[Ootohere]

I expect eventually some investigation into the Pricing of EV charging & if any are operating some sort on cartel on the pricing.

 

The Electricity per kWh for those using AC being so much cheaper than DC can not just be because of the expense of DC chargers and installation and maintenance.

 

Those AC chargers are putting out less electricity or being used longer maybe and rapids getting more sold and serving more customers might just be more profitable, 

but the Premium charged is a p1ss take really.

 

Then some 'Schemes', Subscription, Loyalty,  is not that different from the Supermarket Loyalty Cards that are getting looked at because of some getting a bargain or at the actual value while others are being ripped off / over charged.

[wyx087]

DC rapid chargers are extremely expensive.

£21k for a single 60kw not very good station, ex install: https://evonestop.co.uk/products/ultracharge-160-ultra-rapid-dc-charging-unit

Whereas AC destination charger cost as low as £450 (Tesla wall unit, can deliver up to 22 kW), perhaps £1500 for a dual-socket post. (all ex install)

 

Add in the grid infrastructure cost to deliver power for multiple 150 kW chargers.

vs AC charging could throttle based on whatever building it is attached to.

 

Thus I can understand why DC rapid charging are sometimes twice more expensive than destination charging.

 

But at the same time, it is puzzling why a single (large) company could deliver same service at such cheap rate.

 

 

End of the day, personally, I've no problem paying those prices as 98% of my charging is at home 7.5p/kWh, completely off-sets the odd £1/kWh charging I may need to do. I'd rather pay £1/kWh and have completely reliable service, charging at vehicle full speed and have more than enough stalls to avoid queueing. But this goes back to the grid problem, what I want is hugely expensive to install. Not everyone want this.

 

Thinking about it, in case of Gridserve or BP Pulse, one could argue they should have a lower cost tier for poor service area such as those old motorway services that have less than 4 charging stalls because they offer sub optimum service.

[Ootohere]

TESLA can charge 'Non Busy' lower tariffs which is sensible, and there are Councils in Scotland with 'Off Peak' tariffs, which is as it should be as supposedly using the electricity not in demand but available helps 'Balance the National Grid'.

 

There appears to be profiteering.   Yes chargers and infrastructure is expensive.   

But then surely you want them used as much as possible. 

 

Like Hotel rooms. 

Occupation even at a cheaper rate is bringing in money while unoccupied might require less staff / cleaning but you are not earning anything.

[wyx087]

Quote

UK rapid charging costs (per kWh) ??

 

Instavolt: 85p
BP Pulse: 85p
Shell: 85p
Osprey: 79p
Gridserve: 79p
MFG: 79p
IONITY: 74p (going up to 86p soon?)
Fastned: 69p
Tesla: around 51-65p for non-Teslas

 

If you can charge at home overnight: 9p.

Good overview of rapid charging prices today.   https://twitter.com/tillathenun/status/1730173673934377255 

 

For home charging, actually cheapest is 7p/kWh. See my up to date post here: https://www.speakev.com/threads/list-of-ev-tariff-for-2-5p-mile-motoring.179786/

 

Interesting observation from another forum: https://www.speakev.com/threads/uk-ultra-rapid-prices-where-to-now.181700/

Quote

Seems to me like this sector is very much like another debt-laden but infra-heavy sector; UK fibre-based Alternative Networks (or AltNets) for broadband.

Of the 100+ or so companies crowding into that particular space, we are seeing the "bubble" beginning to burst due mostly to cost of finance and twitchy investors / backers, and insane amount of overbuilding, yet other areas that have had little or no attention paid to them.

Interesting parallels.

I just wonder if the ultra / rapid-charging CPO market will experience similar cliff edge in the next 6 months or so....

 

[wyx087]

Public charging per-mile and per-kWh summarised on this website:

https://leccy.net/charging/public#mile

 

 

[domhnall]

On 19/11/2023 at 21:46, Rooted said:

@domhnall'Card fees' the same card fees each time you tap your card maybe in a supermarket for just a £1 purchase, or anyplace else, buying fuel etc. 

No minimum spend for years now to use plastic as back in the day.  Still 2 litre minimum fuel delivery though.

 

The UK Government are taking the p!th with the Net Zero thing.  As it is BP, Shell and others might have various divisions from the Oil & Gas and nothing to do with the Electricity & Charging infrastructure, but that is a nonsense and they have the profits and are even getting tax breaks to decommission Oil & Gas rigs, and sell off to others and take out new licenses. 

As to the cost of Electricity North of the Border, it is tied to Oil & Gas prices while it goes to waste and is not exported / bought and those that can generate it are earning to not generate.    That the whole kidology of getting to Net Zero.    The National Grid is at it, and the Chancellor is flying kites about £1,000 to those in England and Wales that could be getting pylons near to their properties.

?

Are you getting 20% VAT back on your Public Charging? 

 

BP Pulse back office is hopeless.

CPS up til the changeover was BP with the contract & supposedly doing the back office and that was SWARCO doing it for them.

 

I know what the chargers cost for the commercial businesses, and i know the £80,000 + grants that were got in Scotland for Private concerns that had chargers for their own use, put them as Out of Service and did not honour the terms they got the grants with..

The £60 million and the millions coming in now from Tax payers to some and such as others.

Perth & Kinross had the money from the EU years ago that is now being spent at Broxden park and ride.  While the chargers are down that were there.

Ingilston Park and ride is a disgrace down for 3 weeks now with the Rapids.

Hermiston is on my account for 3 x £1 where chargers did not start charging. 

ion

 

£800k will only go so far, a rapid charger is roughly £50k, you have £2k for the grid connection for a 50 kW unit, CPs charge 25p per transaction, then you have the cost of the civils to get it all installed. THere's a reason the likes of Gridserve, Instavolt etc are not making any profit, same with any infarstructure rollout, you need to invest a lot and wait years to make your money back. 

[Ootohere]

@domhnall£800,000 was not all they got just a small part of it. 

As it is the New Low Carbon Transport Hub is going up at the outskirts of Perth with the Hydrogen production and filling facilities and also EV charging.

Houses as well.  These housing projects and local authority / common good land use should expect developers to be putting some of their financing into public charging and not just charging as the properties being built / sold.

 

Dundee City Council managed very well to advance the EV facilities using EU and UK funding and from Holyrood.

If the books balance this financial year and into the future for other public facilities for those that have no cars and just public transport and need libraries, learning and sports centres then good.

The Public Charging hubs from commercial concerns are appearing at a charging cost to the public of them just running and economic ICE vehicle.

 

PS

Open a Cafe or some kind of eatery and take the cost of ingredients & suppies purchased and overheads, building, staff, utilities and it used to be that you aimed for a 60% per portion / meal made over these costs.

 

kWh being paid for electricity is near double what the cost of it is to those providing it at charger and the general public are paying the 20% VAT and not claiming it back. 

 

Yes infrastructure is expensive and might take years until a profit is made.

But then those investing are getting the tax breaks / assistance from the Government / tax payers, and if they have lots of customers and the resale of electricity the profits come.

Then lets remember the taxes paid on profits are after nice payments to The Management', the nice offices, the perks and the overheads and costs, 

including their managements expenses and travel,  and of course Lawyers, Consultants, Accountants etc etc.

Everyone gets a nice little earner before the taxes get to the Treasury. 

 

http://boydbrothers.co.uk/service/ev-chargers

http://swarco.com

 

 

 

Edited 16 December, 2023 by Rooted

[lol-lol]

Yes the capital expenditure is huge both on the cost of the actual charger units and the cost of site installation.  The Single phase AC are easiest, then 3 phase AC then the big DC chargers.

 

When my company owned Source London I recall seeing the import declarations for the units, not cheap.  One has to sell a good few Megawatts Hours of lecky to recoup that capital investment. 

 

They need to make the money back before TESLA have enough charging stations to service non-TESLA in most places which they will do at 50p per kWH or less if one pays the £11 a month TESLA.  I think Octopus have got it right ie not investing in actual hardware but just doing a deal with their Octoverse RFID cards which give a discount to users and get extra trade for the charger network. 

 

The planning stuff can also be a big headache.  London with its 44 boroughs was relatively more difficult compared to Paris unitary authority I heard.

ABB have a big DC chargers manufacturing in Italy, not aware of any similar facilities in the UK.  

https://new.abb.com/news/detail/92348/abb-e-mobility-opens-its-largest-dc-fast-charger-production-facility-in-italy

 

https://youtu.be/qydRAhIW6QA

 

 

[wyx087]

Until 6th of Jan, all first time non-Tesla charging on SuC network will be free.

 

 

 

Not sure how they'd distinguish first time users if one uses different bank contactless card each time.....

[Luckypants]

The "(must use credit card on Tesla app)" is the giveaway, they will track by app use. Also, this is how they will check that you are a new user. The card terminals on V4 SUC will not be free.

Edited 3 January by Luckypants

[wyx087]

Feeling the pressure from Tesla opening up superchargers? 

 

Ionity passport subscription fee has now been reduced. 

 

Quote

At IONITY, we want to make e-mobility accessible to everyone. To this end, we are constantly expanding and consolidating our network of charging stations and doing everything we can to make e-mobility even more attractive.

That's why we are reducing the monthly PASSPORT base price* by 50% from 23 January 2024 in all 24 countries of the IONITY charging network. All new and existing customers will pay just 5.99** euros per month from the next invoice instead of the previous 11.99** euros, or according to the local currency*.

The basic monthly price is amortised from the very first charging session. PASSPORT customers naturally continue to benefit from the 20*** cent discount per kWh on our IONITY DIRECT tariff.****

In addition we lowered the kWh prices in Austria, Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Would you like more information about our prices and the IONITY PASSPORT?

FIND OUT NOW!

Haven't got an IONITY PASSPORT yet? Subscribe today via the IONITY app. You can easily cancel it at any time.


* The monthly base price depends on your place of residence based on the corresponding national currency.

**All prices include local VAT and other price components.

***Discount depends on the country in which the vehicle is charged.

**** The valid IONITY DIRECT tariff depends on the location where the vehicle is charged. IONITY reserves the right to change the IONITY DIRECT tariff. If the IONITY DIRECT tariff is changed, the IONITY PASSPORT charging tariff will change accordingly, although the discount will remain unchanged.

 

https://ionity.eu/en/network/access-and-payment

56p/kWh with £5.50 per month sub. Cheaper than Tesla's monthly price and rate is only a few p more expensive than Tesla' peak time rate (comparing with subscription). Both cancel anytime for those road trips. 

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Feeling the pressure from Tesla opening up superchargers? 

 

Ionity passport subscription fee has now been reduced. 

 

 

https://ionity.eu/en/network/access-and-payment

56p/kWh with £5.50 per month sub. Cheaper than Tesla's monthly price and rate is only a few p more expensive than Tesla' peak time rate (comparing with subscription). Both cancel anytime for those road trips. 

 

Sounds a good deal if one has at least a couple of Ionity locations one might use.  

Peachy site at Maygor near Newport Gwent and at West Brom near the ground and at Chippenham cafe near m4 Junction. Good sites usually and good chargers.

Sadly Dragon in Wales is going to be more convenient and cheaper and no subscription with the Eltroverse card.

 

[Luckypants]

Tesla have opened yet another hub to all cars, in Bristol this time. Thats 38 open to all, 39 when Thetford reopens after being upgraded. They are now a serious player in the open to all EV charging business.

Edited 21 March by Luckypants

[Luckypants]

With new hubs in England opening all the time, useful to post a link to Snax's map of UK hubs to show just how many charging hubs there are now. This does not include the chargers installed in ones and twos about the place which account for a lot of the infrastructure. Much of Osprey and Instavolt chargers are in pairs....

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1DOswN-GODssM2XmKV4oQ9r-mkGcbGno&ll=54.83169908129373%2C-4.228457999999976&z=6

 

Edited 21 March by Luckypants

[Luckypants]

.... and causing much excitement amongst the Twitteratti (X-eratti really does not have the same ring to it!) is EV Point installing the first non-Tesla badged V4 superchargers at Uttoxeter. They are operational by all accounts but not yet on Zapmap, Electroverse et al. A new hub using Tesla tech without the need for contact with Tesla.

 

https://electrek.co/2024/03/21/first-non-tesla-branded-v4-superchargers-are-being-deployed/

Edited 26 March by Luckypants

[wyx087]

On 26/03/2024 at 10:55, Luckypants said:

A new hub using Tesla tech without the need for contact with Tesla.

I read those ones will work with the same as Tesla superchargers for Tesla vehicles:

So their backend is most likely still managed by Tesla. Good from reliability point of view as evident from supercharger, but some people may not like the association.

[lol-lol]

Another Motorway service quadrupling it availability of charges, this time Warwick South, just after recent similar, or in fact bigger upgrades to Hopwood and Frankley South.

Hopefully the Northern Frankley and Warwick will also be done soon but looking like the steep adoption curve of EVs is starting to get matched by rapid charger being brought on line at the Motorway services.......

 

  tion 

 

[Luckypants]

Services at last seem to be getting their act together with regards charging. I suspect this is the pay-off to the government Rapid Charging Fund helping pay to upgrade power supplies to MSAs starting to come through.

[Luckypants]

Another 'partnership' starting to bear fruit. A new Osprey hub at a Tesco Extra in Leicester as a result of the site owner (REIT) and Osprey striking a deal for Osprey to provide charging at REIT's retail parks.

https://www.ospreycharging.co.uk/post/new-hub-tesco-extra-leicester