DIY Water/Methanol "Where's the extra power?"

[EggMeister]

Hello All,

Back in January I started to develop my own 'stealth' water methanol injection system for my TDi Monte Carlo. I wanted to see if I could make a cheap and useable set up with ebay sourced items (yup, I'm already on a path to failure LOL). After several months of dodgy development I came up with a working system (see image below). In a nutshell, I diverted the washer jet piping via a T-piece and a couple of one-way valves from under the scuttle to a hidden 80psi pump and solenoid valve also under the scuttle. One of those one-way valves was to prevent the pump sucking in atmospheric air through the washer jets instead of water from the bottle. I had a system 'ON' switch in the glove box along with a boost gauge and the system was activated via a boost switch set to around 8psi. The boost reference pipework and the 6mm 'push-fit' misting nozzle were both installed in the 6 inches of rubber hose immediately before the throttle body. I ran just pure water with this set up but after testing it didn't appear to improve my acceleration and then 'something' happened which I refer to in the Steemit post (& embedded video) linked below. (OK, water flew out of the scuttle during a run so I suspected a pipe failure) Also in the post is all the previous post links over several months regarding the development and bench testing of the unit which some of you might find interesting.

 

https://steemit.com/cars/@eggmeister/early-death-stealth-water-methanol-injection-sh2omi-update-18-06-2018

 

A month or two passed and I got the urge to have another go with the unit. I modified the system several ways. I removed the solenoid valve as it was holding the PVC pipe under constant pressure which was stretching/expanding it over time. It wasn't really required as the pump has it's own check valve installed plus there's the other one near the junction with the washer jet pipework. I also heavily strengthened/improved the boost feed fitting and nozzle fitting on the rubber intake pipe to prevent failure/ boost leakage. I'm also now running 80/20 water/meth instead of the pure water as with the mk1 version. With these modifications, I re-installed the system on Saturday morning and today (Sunday 26th August) I went to test the results on the Hemsworth bypass. I used the Torque app connected to my Carista OBD2 dongle to automatically register the 0-60 times. After several runs without the system active I posted a best time of 8.6 seconds. Several runs with the water/meth on and the best time acheived was still only 8.6 seconds?!?!?!

 

So just like the mk1 version of the unit (if you've read the last few of the Steemit posts linked in the above post link), I haven't gained any extra performance?!?!?!

 

All those guys on YouTube with either commercial water/meth kits or DIY ones all seem to make significant gains but not I :(

 

Why is this????

 

My Bluespark Pro + Boost tuning box has my turbo running at 24psi max according to the glovebox fitted boost gauge so the 80psi pump should easily overcome this; right??? Fluid is definitely being used as I have to top the washer bottle up and no, I've not been washing the windows during testing

 

I'm not clever when it comes to how modern engines work but could there be some conflict between the ECU on the injected water/meth which is altering the fuelling due to intake charge temp drop??? Or, is the EGR/emissions control circuitry doing something similar....... Or, could the Bluespark tuning box be misinterpreting the ECU data once the water/meth injection is taking place and sending the wrong info to the fuel injectors????? I suppose I could test again with the tuning box bypass plug fitted and see if that solves it???? To be honest, I don't have much hope.

 

So to the BRISKODA users, if you could help or just give me a slap and point out an obvious mistake I've made then I would be extremely grateful.

 

If this issue can be solved, I am considering using the extra fuelling from the system (methanol) to compliment a NOS kit in the future for even more POWER!!!

 

Anyhoo, I've droned on too long now so I'll see you later.

 

 

Many thanks,

EggMeister.

[peter_k]

From the little knowledge I have about this I thought you would need some "electronics" to adjust the ignition timing or a new ecu map. 

[EggMeister]

I'm not sure, from all I've seen on the internet it seems to be almost a sort of 'plug n play' system with extra power ready to go.

I did find a USA web site to a company selling Snow Performance water/meth kits and the blurb for the 1.9 & 2.0 VW TDi engines was an extra 40ft/lb & 35bhp. Admittedly that's with a 300psi pump and bespoke injector nozzle but even on my 1.6 TDi and lower pump pressure (still good flow though and 56psi when taking away the turbos boost pressure into the equation) I'd imagine at least 15bhp increase which I would have thought it would be a noticeable improvement.

 

RE: the testing without the tuning box active (bypass plug fitted). I went for a run a few times up and down the Tingley/White Rose dual carriageway this morning and again, there doesn't appear to be any difference with or without system activated. So I'm doubtful a new ECU map would be of any benefit...... plus 300-500 quid to find out is a bit of a stretch financially at the moment.

 

I might contact the likes of Snow Performance and other to see if a whooping 300psi is really required but they'll probably be biased towards trying to get a sale out of me. Naturally aspirated engines I guess don't need high pump pressures as they're injecting into a vacuum which will aid in the process.

 

Cheer for response 'peter_k' much appreciated :)

[EggMeister]

I might have cracked it!

It's looking like quantity over quality was my downfall.

 

I was running a 0.6mm misting nozzle on the first trial a couple of months ago but I came to the conclusion that there wasn't sufficient water/meth and so I ordered a 0.8mm one for the 2nd attempt last week which didn't seem to improve power/acceleration.

 

Racking my brains like mad made me wonder if the water/meth droplet size was too large and not actually evaporating and reducing air intake temps. As I had removed the unit after this 2nd failed attempt, I rigged it all up in the back garden and connected it up to a drill battery.

 

Firstly I ran with the 0.8mm nozzle and filmed and observed the 'mist'. I noticed that a lot of the water/meth was falling like rain (some was 'misting' tho) and probably too large a droplet size. With a 0.4mm nozzle (one which I ordered at the same time as the 0.6mm but initially dismissed), all the water/meth appeared to be completely misted albeit with reduced quantity.

 

I refitted the unit yesterday (Friday) and went for a test drive up the dual carriageway to Tingley(M62) roundabout and there does appear to be a slight increase in performance. I'm just hoping that it isn't the 'placebo effect' though. How do I draw this conclusion??? Not very scientifically LOL; dropping down from the M62 and crossing the White Rose pub roundabout (in the outside lane), 2nd gear wheelspin off the roundabout over the slight crest seemed to have the inside front wheel struggling for traction a longer duration than normal....... plus I hit 70mph around a third of the way down to the next roundabout (White Rose Shopping Centre). Again, my desire for improvement may be clouding my judgment.

 

So I will do another 0-60 run using the Torque app to time it on the Hemsworth bypass again as soon as possible.

 

I might even book a couple of dyno runs at Darkside Dev to see if there's a difference???

Edited 1 September, 2018 by EggMeister

[EggMeister]

UPDATE:

 

I'm still running with the 0.4mm nozzle/jet and I'm still not 100% there's any defo improvement. Roughly guessing here but I think I'm probably only using about 200ml per minute and so I've ordered a 120psi pump (same make as the 80psi one currently fitted) which i think will be the maximum safe pressure for my dodgy adhoc set up. It's nice to hear the pump briefly re-pressurize up to the 80psi level at the nozzle with a satisfying loud BBRRRPPP!!! for a second or two when I activate it for the first time after a day or so. It makes the pedestrians look around anyway

 

I'll keep you in the loop guys

Perhaps I might try NOS afterall.........

[Ootohere]

Far simpler with a strong diesel engine, or just a cheap one.

 

 

[AMD87]

Darkside have recently fitted the snow meth kit to their 1.6 tdi golf but at the same time it was fitted with race cams. It was 232bhp and 332 lb ft before and with the meth and the cams it is 250bhp and 360ft lbs.

 

Darkside are worth chatting to about the snow set up but not sure how much they could advise on your custom set up.

[EggMeister]

Hiya AMD87,

 

This is spooky, I was at Darkside yesterday to have a new stainless zorst fitted (2.5", straight-thru, discreet tip). I spoke to Lee when I went to pick up the Fabia and we briefly talked about water/meth. He mentioned the 20hp increase on the Golf too I've now ditched the DIY kit and will probably get a Snow kit in the future. I'm eagerly waiting to see what the new Banks Power kits will be like, the web site states the kits will be available from the end of this year.

 

The zorst is amazing, driving back to Leeds yesterday afternoon I could notice the improved throttle response and acceleration, no doubt due in part to the back-box delete. I'll add a few pics plus Lee gave me 3 stickers so I've proudly added them this afternoon to the C pillars and boot

 

Thanks for your response,

Robster

 

p.s. btw, I've also fitted an Audi A1 1.4 TSFI intake charge pipe for 20 quid. I guess similar to the VRS one. Much wider opening and no constrictive portion immediately after the snorkel attachment like there is on the stock one.

 

Edited 11 October, 2018 by EggMeister
added a p.s.

[AMD87]

Ah so that’s your car. You owe me £570 as after seeing the pictures I’ve booked mine in now 

 

i take it youre not on the facebook owners group?

 

i was talking to Ben I think and he said it is pretty loud and I’ll need to be careful with noise regs on trackdays but thankfully they don’t do noise tests at Knockhill but is it really that loud lol

 

ive got that too there’s a few pics on my build thread 

Edited 12 October, 2018 by AMD87

[EggMeister]

Hi amd87,

Apologies for the forthcoming dent in your bank balance lol.

 

To be honest, I don't think it's much louder than stock. A slight burble but not really any louder. I wanted the extra power from removing the back box rather than any noise gains. There's a noticeable increase in throttle response and acceleration, even the missus can tell a difference. 

 

Have you seen the video response I posted today to Sean Smith's comment about hearing the sound on Darksides fb posting? You'll be able to gauge it for yourself

 

You could also find it as the latest upload on my YouTube channel. TeamEggmotor.

[AMD87]

thanks had a listen and yeah just abit louder, i have a cat and dpf delete from darkside, also does yours have the traction control button

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 October, 2018 by AMD87

[EggMeister]

Ahh, so yours will be louder still then without the dpf and cat.

I don't think mine has a traction control button, it'll wheelspin quite easy once rolling a little bit and the ecu kindly allows max revs. Looking at your vids, I have a different dash/dials to yours as well.

[AMD87]

It should be above the rear window heater if there is one then that will let you rev above 2600rpm when stationary

[EggMeister]

Looks like I ain't got one :(

[Ootohere]

Just before your cars ESP was still an option, and Skoda made it standard just before legislation required it to be standard

and then there was no ASR / TC,  then it was introduced.

[Jayjay1007]

Eggmeister can i aks u the W&meth kit i am thinking of doing the same as i am runing nitrus . I am going to use a 160psi water pump ebay . Got a solenoid but could use a check valve instead. Looked into this for a long now . I need it so i dont need to pull timing when using nos. Did u get the kit working ok. And did it help. The jet size i can get the pump  i use 50/50 or 1to1 ratio water & meth . Not going to pay £200or £300 when like u i no i xan make a kit may self .  I'll probably use a check valve and not are so annoyed to come straight off the pump and into the injectors someone told me you don't even need a relay as I'm using it as an on-and-off same as a nitrous on and off active system but if you can tell me if your kit worked be much appreciated thank you

[Ootohere]

Welcome to the forum.

Maybe @AMD87 will be able to help as @EggMeister has not sign in the form for a while now.

[AMD87]

57 minutes ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

Welcome to the forum.

Maybe @AMD87 will be able to help as @EggMeister has not sign in the form for a while now.

I’m not gonna diy my meth darkside is fitting it 😂

[EggMeister]

Hello @Jayjay1007, I got the kit working ok I believe. The finest misting nozzle I found (utilizing garden/watering nozzles) was a 0.4mm one. I also tried a 0.6mm and 0.8mm but I thought the droplet sizes were too big. I did a video of each nozzle working prior to installation in the car and found the the 'mist' from the 0.4mm nozzle 'hung' in the air much more while the 0.6mm and 0.8mm dropped under gravity sooner. You're probably aware that a finer mist will evaporate more quickly in the cylinder and therefore increase air density.

 

One concern I had was that I was unsure if a significant portion of the mist (spray pattern) during operation within the intake pipe was hitting the sides of the pipe and running down and pooling in the intercooler. The reason I say this was that once after a few 'test' runs on a trip to my mums, I was turning at a junction and as I accelerated away I saw a big plume of pure white steam (though at first I thought it was smoke) in my rear view mirror. I feared I ran the risk of hydrolocking the engine and along with the fact that I didn't see any improvements in the 'feel' or in-gear acceleration times using my 'Torque' app I decided to abandon the project.

 

I have now modified the system to fire a fine mist from 3 nozzles onto the intercooler. I used the principle described by Julian Edger on his YouTube channel to fire the mist forwards and allow the motion of the car to 'blow' the mist back into the intercooler. Apparently Mr Edger has had greater success using this method over directly 'squirting' at the intercooler as the mist evaporates more quickly off the cooling vanes resulting in greater efficiency and lower intake temps. That's for another day though If you're interested in this option as well, I suggest you watch Julian's video:

 

In terms of your requirements, I suspect it will allow you to run the timing you desire

 

 

[AMD87]

6 hours ago, EggMeister said:

Hello @Jayjay1007, I got the kit working ok I believe. The finest misting nozzle I found (utilizing garden/watering nozzles) was a 0.4mm one. I also tried a 0.6mm and 0.8mm but I thought the droplet sizes were too big. I did a video of each nozzle working prior to installation in the car and found the the 'mist' from the 0.4mm nozzle 'hung' in the air much more while the 0.6mm and 0.8mm dropped under gravity sooner. You're probably aware that a finer mist will evaporate more quickly in the cylinder and therefore increase air density.

 

One concern I had was that I was unsure if a significant portion of the mist (spray pattern) during operation within the intake pipe was hitting the sides of the pipe and running down and pooling in the intercooler. The reason I say this was that once after a few 'test' runs on a trip to my mums, I was turning at a junction and as I accelerated away I saw a big plume of pure white steam (though at first I thought it was smoke) in my rear view mirror. I feared I ran the risk of hydrolocking the engine and along with the fact that I didn't see any improvements in the 'feel' or in-gear acceleration times using my 'Torque' app I decided to abandon the project.

 

I have now modified the system to fire a fine mist from 3 nozzles onto the intercooler. I used the principle described by Julian Edger on his YouTube channel to fire the mist forwards and allow the motion of the car to 'blow' the mist back into the intercooler. Apparently Mr Edger has had greater success using this method over directly 'squirting' at the intercooler as the mist evaporates more quickly off the cooling vanes resulting in greater efficiency and lower intake temps. That's for another day though If you're interested in this option as well, I suggest you watch Julian's video:

 

In terms of your requirements, I suspect it will allow you to run the timing you desire

 

 

Similar to what evo’s and imprezas have  

 

im going for the snow performance kit as well as a couple of other things. 

[Craig_S_VRS]

I've been looking into water meth and it does seem like all roads are leading to snow