I am in the process of moving to a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid and am due to pick the car up on Monday.

 

In the meantime, yesterday lunchtime I had a spare hour and decided to visit the Honda dealer in Inverness. One of the staff where I work has owned several Honda CRV's and rates them highly. It has been a long time since I owned a Honda and I did rate them then (Accord saloon & a Civic hatch).

 

i asked the salesman for a price-list (the model in the showroom was very imposing) as was the price. Priced from £25,000 this actual model was over £36K. I asked why this was £11k more and was told it was a seven seater. £11k for 2 extra seats - wow!

 

Anyway, I was interested to know what type of CVT it had but the salesman couldn't tell me. So he called on the senior salesman and he didn't know either. But undaunted they would get me someone who would know. I waited patiently for the After-sales Manager to arrive. He seemed incredibly young (35 actually - I asked!) and lo and behold he didn't know. either. He had only been there 5 weeks. I explained that I was not a fan of belt & pulley CVT but I was more comfortable with an Epicyclic gear train.

 

He looked a little vacant and after a little prodding admitted he knew neither of these types of transmission. Well, it is fair to say that set me back on my heels. How on earth can a fellow rise to After-sales Manager without such a basic understanding of vehicle mechanics. And how could such a large dealer group employ someone with not even the most basic knowledge of vehicle systems.

 

It transpires he was an ex-VAG manager who knew only too well of the frailties of DSG 'boxes, Haldex systems et al and decided it would do his career no end of good to exit VAG sharpish and gain some respectability with Honda.

 

What a terrible indictment of our Motor Industry and VAG in particular.

 

So RAV4 it is then with its Hybrid Synergy drive and Epicylic gear train - for better or worse (lets hope better).

 

We're doomed I say, doomed.

 

Bill 

27 minutes ago, lawnmowerman said:

I am in the process of moving to a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid and am due to pick the car up on Monday.

 

In the meantime, yesterday lunchtime I had a spare hour and decided to visit the Honda dealer in Inverness. One of the staff where I work has owned several Honda CRV's and rates them highly. It has been a long time since I owned a Honda and I did rate them then (Accord saloon & a Civic hatch).

 

i asked the salesman for a price-list (the model in the showroom was very imposing) as was the price. Priced from £25,000 this actual model was over £36K. I asked why this was £11k more and was told it was a seven seater. £11k for 2 extra seats - wow!

 

Anyway, I was interested to know what type of CVT it had but the salesman couldn't tell me. So he called on the senior salesman and he didn't know either. But undaunted they would get me someone who would know. I waited patiently for the After-sales Manager to arrive. He seemed incredibly young (35 actually - I asked!) and lo and behold he didn't know. either. He had only been there 5 weeks. I explained that I was not a fan of belt & pulley CVT but I was more comfortable with an Epicyclic gear train.

 

He looked a little vacant and after a little prodding admitted he knew neither of these types of transmission. Well, it is fair to say that set me back on my heels. How on earth can a fellow rise to After-sales Manager without such a basic understanding of vehicle mechanics. And how could such a large dealer group employ someone with not even the most basic knowledge of vehicle systems.

 

It transpires he was an ex-VAG manager who knew only too well of the frailties of DSG 'boxes, Haldex systems et al and decided it would do his career no end of good to exit VAG sharpish and gain some respectability with Honda.

 

What a terrible indictment of our Motor Industry and VAG in particular.

 

So RAV4 it is then with its Hybrid Synergy drive and Epicylic gear train - for better or worse (lets hope better).

 

We're doomed I say, doomed.

 

Bill 

We are in furious agreement and should hold our annual meeting in the local phone box.

The reason is simples :

White Goods.

They can’t keep up with the constantly changing models and versions within models and are all simply tin pushers and we (those of us who aren’t ‘snowed’ by the bs) are the problem.  Modern folk are supposed to be mainly interested in the entertainment tech, boring people ask hard questions these days.

Once it’s out of warranty (much fine print), it’s your problem.

Are you sure the RAV4 AWD hybrid is a conventional auto, because I’ve read it’s an e-CVT, with the “orthodox AWD” being an 8 speed?.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyota-rav4-hybrid-2019-review-international-115695/

Edited 10 January, 20197 yr by Ryeman

That would be Park's Honda in Inverness.    Parks what ever are just like Arnold Clark or other Dealership Groups.  

Classic is Park's Skoda Hamilton.  There is a Dealership of many mumpty's.

If you want a new McLaren lets hope they know a bit about them in the Parks Motor Group.

6 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

We are in furious agreement and should hold our annual meeting in the local phone box.

The reason is simples :

White Goods.

They can’t keep up with the constantly changing models and versions within models and are all simply tin pushers and we (those of us who aren’t ‘snowed’ by the bs) are the problem.  Modern folk are supposed to be mainly interested in the entertainment tech, boring people ask hard questions these days.

Once it’s out of warranty (much fine print), it’s your problem.

Are you sure the RAV4 AWD hybrid is a conventional auto, because I’ve read it’s an e-CVT, with the “orthodox AWD” being an 8 speed?.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyota-rav4-hybrid-2019-review-international-115695/

 

The transmission has an Epicyclic mechanism (e-CVT) - the AWD utilises electric motors on the rear.

 

And of course your right to say white goods syndrome. Trouble is we're not talking a £600 washing machine. Cars typically are north of £20k even for quite basic models. More years ago than I care to remember when we were messing about with 6,000 mile service intervals the good ole US of A had 50,000 mile intervals (long life oil, filters plugs etc).

 

Progress is sometimes slow (and seems to have a reverse gear).

 

Bill 

So the e-CVT doesn’t have belt and pulleys?.

1 minute ago, Skoffski said:

That would be Park's Honda in Inverness.    Parks what ever are just like Arnold Clark or other Dealership Groups.  

Classic is Park's Skoda Hamilton.  There is a Dealership of many mumpty's.

If you want a new McLaren lets hope they know a bit about them in the Parks Motor Group.

 

 Correct.

 

Many years ago I was 'between jobs' and had a choice between a new start up in Linwood and Park's (Nissan). I choose Park's. The reason was that with a start up there is huge pressure on the Manager's to deliver profit quickly. The trouble is that even if you deliver Industry standard profit (or even better) the pressure on the Board of Directors is to want more to mitigate their high start up costs (they understand less about After-sales than Sales - or at least they did - don't think much has changed since). So, I did not want to be sacrificed in their vain hope for better profit. After all they only know if you were doing a good job after they have replaced you and have something to compare with.

 

So how did it go at Park's? The manager's were really under pressure with not the best support mechanism in place. Some managers were exceptional but in fairness most were good enough. But you do need the support of the Board. I am fairly sure since those days (25 plus years) things would have gone South as evidenced by their Toyota & Honda outlets in Inverness. I firmly believe that the best to be hoped for is a small family owned firm with one or perhaps a few more dealerships that can be managed to the customer's benefit. i also think that the huge pressure from the manufacturer's is killing good dealers.

 

C'est la vie!

 

Bill 

19 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

So the e-CVT doesn’t have belt and pulleys?.

 

Absolutely not (on Toyota).

 

Just now, lawnmowerman said:

 

Absolutely not (on Toyota).

 

This aging bear of little brain has a problem with CVT not involving belts and pulleys.

Obviously the CVT monicker is seen as being a plus.........just not in my book.

8 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

This aging bear of little brain has a problem with CVT not involving belts and pulleys.

Obviously the CVT monicker is seen as being a plus.........just not in my book.

 

They use an Epicyclic gear train. It is all to do with using electric motors and an engine. So the engine provides propulsion from one side and the electric motor from the other side. The electric motor drive doubles as an engine starter (not a conventional pre-engaged starter so less wear and tear). Using both these drives in concert then allows the output to the driven wheels from between these drive mechanisms (using a Morse Chain).

 

A 'traditional' CVT with belt and pulleys would be quite difficult and complex to arrange with electric motor input I think.

 

Cheers, Bill 

 

P.S. the tendency for CVT transmissions to hold higher revs than you would like to maintain torque is mitigated by Toyota in using the Atkinson cycle rather than the Otto cycle in their petrol engines. 

Edited 10 January, 20197 yr by lawnmowerman

2 minutes ago, lawnmowerman said:

 

They use an Epicyclic gear train. It is all to do with using electric motors and an engine. So the engine provides propulsion from one side and the electric motor from the other side. The electric motor drive doubles as an engine starter (not a conventional pre-engaged starter so less wear and tear). Using both these drives in concert then allows the output to the driven wheels from between these drive mechanisms (using a Morse Chain).

 

A 'traditional' CVT with belt and pulleys would be quite difficult and complex to arrange with electric motor input I think.

 

Cheers, Bill 

So what they mean is constant velocity but not in the sense of a CVT !?

I would have rejected it on the basis that it claims to be a CVT........ hmmm.

Just now, Ryeman said:

So what they mean is constant velocity but not in the sense of a CVT !?

I would have rejected it on the basis that it claims to be a CVT........ hmmm.

 

Hmm, it is continuously variable in as much as there are no steps (as in gears). So it really does what it says on the tin - I think.

 

1 minute ago, lawnmowerman said:

 

Hmm, it is continuously variable in as much as there are no steps (as in gears). So it really does what it says on the tin - I think.

 

What we do know is that asking the salesman is a waste of time.

They will tell you what they think you want to hear.

Absolutely correct - they could be selling dishwashers. They only need to know the benefit to the customer.

 

However, I needed their price list and it was the easiest route to After-sales - even if it was a waste of time in the end. In fairness, the salesman did find the info on the Honda website.

 

The PSA group hybrids use the ZF 8 speed transmission and is, almost by default, the only hybrid I’d look at.

The new Corolla hybrid is CVT also, so that was rejected.

 

(zero/minimal servicing is, for us, making the EV Kona/Niro/Leaf plus almost the best rational choice)

Edited 10 January, 20197 yr by Ryeman

Is the ZF 8 speed a dual clutch manual box with auto-shifting?

 

You're right about the Corolla - same as all the other Toyota Hybrids.

 

Time for bed now in the UK - not sure what time in OZ.

 

Catch up later.

 

Good night  

1 minute ago, lawnmowerman said:

Is the ZF 8 speed a dual clutch manual box with auto-shifting?

 

You're right about the Corolla - same as all the other Toyota Hybrids.

 

Time for bed now in the UK - not sure what time in OZ.

 

Catch up later.

 

Good night  

Yeah, a conventional torque converter auto with paddles ......not double clutch.

Edited 10 January, 20197 yr by Ryeman

I'm still having difficulty with how an epicyclic gear can manage to change its input to output ratio.

Quote

22 hours ago, Ryeman said:

So the e-CVT doesn’t have belt and pulleys?.

 

 

 

The Toyota hybrid e-CVT should be regarded as an electonically controlled transaxle. In summary it's a shaft with a drive take off with an epicyclic gearbox and motor/generator at each end of it (bit like a differential - ish) and a Miller  Atkinson cycle engine at one end of it connected via a sacraficial clutch (just there to protect if it all goes wrong!). There are no belts and pulleys - Everything is controlled electronically  by varying what the motors/generators do.

Initially if batteries are charged it uses a motor to start motion. As the batteries empty the motor at the engine end allows the engine to turn at low speed and start and then then join in with the motion at higher revs than needed and thus turning one motor into an electronically controlled generator.

 

There are some interesting (well they are to me) youtube videos showing this  but compared to any other gearbox there are very few moving oily bits.

Edited 11 January, 20197 yr by bigjohn

6 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

 

 

The Toyota hybrid e-CVT should be regarded as an electonically controlled transaxle. In summary it's a shaft with a drive take off with an epicyclic gearbox and motor/generator at each end of it (bit like a differential - ish) and a Miller cycle engine at one end of it connected via a sacraficial clutch (just there to protect if it all goes wrong!). There are no belts and pulleys - Everything is controlled electronically  by varying what the motors/generators do.

Initially if batteries are charged it uses a motor to start motion. As the batteries empty the motor at the engine end allows the engine to turn at low speed and start and then then join in with the motion at higher revs than needed and thus turning one motor into an electronically controlled generator.

 

There are some interesting (well they are to me) youtube videos showing this  but compared to any other gearbox there are very few moving oily bits.

I imagine a significant virtue is it’s compact nature.  I assume it’s tacked on to the end of the combined engine and electric motor?.

15 hours ago, lawnmowerman said:

One of the staff where I work has owned several Honda CRV's and rates them highly.

 

Is the staff member a shorter-than-average woman with limited interest in vehicle mechanics and absolutely no interest in improving her real-world driving... perhaps with a child or two, and/or a horde of dogs?

I ask, because that description matches my wife, including the CRV. I find it absolutely horrid to drive on any serious basis, cramped, unintuitive, inconveniently laid out, with worrying body roll round even a slow, gentle corner, a rather laggy throttle and a gearbox that really ought to respond earlier, though I suspect they called it the Sport Edition as a lazy cover-up of this last point.

It does have a picnic table in the boot, though...!

10 hours ago, bigjohn said:

 

 

The Toyota hybrid e-CVT should be regarded as an electonically controlled transaxle. In summary it's a shaft with a drive take off with an epicyclic gearbox and motor/generator at each end of it (bit like a differential - ish) and a Miller cycle engine at one end of it connected via a sacraficial clutch (just there to protect if it all goes wrong!). There are no belts and pulleys - Everything is controlled electronically  by varying what the motors/generators do.

Initially if batteries are charged it uses a motor to start motion. As the batteries empty the motor at the engine end allows the engine to turn at low speed and start and then then join in with the motion at higher revs than needed and thus turning one motor into an electronically controlled generator.

 

There are some interesting (well they are to me) youtube videos showing this  but compared to any other gearbox there are very few moving oily bits.

 

Excellent summary Bigjohn although the engine is not using a Miller cycle (that is supercharged). it uses the Atkinson cycle by allowing the intake valve to remain open longer than it should (in compression stroke).

 

Cheers, Bill 

8 minutes ago, lawnmowerman said:

 

Excellent summary Bigjohn although the engine is not using a Miller cycle (that is supercharged). it uses the Atkinson cycle by allowing the intake valve to remain open longer than it should (in compression stroke).

 

Cheers, Bill 

 

Oops you are right re Atkinson cycle. Mis put in as I'd been writing something about the 1.5tsi/ Miller cycle - I'll edit the earlier post to avoid future confusion.

 

However I'm slightly confiused now - How come the 1.5tsi comes up as using the Miller cycle - it's not supercharged? I'd posted as I wondered if the Miller cycle was something to do with the reported kangaroo syndrome setting off and possibly that's why VAG can't fix it with just a software update? - only a theory.

 

Edited 11 January, 20197 yr by bigjohn

6 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

 

Oops you are right re Atkinson cycle. Mis put in as I'd been writing something about the 1.5tsi!! - I'll edit the post to avoid future confusion.

 

However I'm slightly confiused now - How come the 1.5tsi comes up as using the Miller cycle - it's not supercharged?

 

 

The 1.5 TSI is a twin charger - turbo & supercharger - so it can use the Miller cycle.

 

www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/petrol/tsi

 

Bill 

Edited 11 January, 20197 yr by lawnmowerman

4 minutes ago, lawnmowerman said:

 

The 1.5 TSI is a twin charger - turbo & supercharger - so it can use the Miller cycle.

 

Bill 

 

I thought it was just turbo? - The twin charger was surely just the earlier higher powered EA111 engines as per Fabia II VRS? 

Doh - looks like it's a twin charger , one to cross off the list then. That  explains it then!

 

Do all the 1.5tsi engines have a Supercharger then?

 

Edited 11 January, 20197 yr by bigjohn

4 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

 

I thought it was just turbo? - The twin charger was surely just the earlier higher powered EA111 engines as per Fabia II VRS? 

Doh - looks like it's a twin charger , one to cross off the list then. That  explains it then!

 

Do all the 1.5tsi engines have a Supercharger then?

 

 

Don't know if the current ones are. I just had a look at VW's website and came up with this.  www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/petrol/tsi

 

Who knows what makes sense now in VAG land.