Blind spot detection/Lane change assist - odd behaviour

[dstev2000]

The official VW name for it is 'Lane change assist/assistant' but it's colloquially known as 'Blind spot detection'.

 

A little bit of a backstory: I had this system on my previous Mk3 Superb L&K. Drove the car for around 55,000 miles and had no problems with the system at all. It worked perfectly. 

I also have the same system on my Sportline. And when I mean 'the same system', it's identical with the small exception of the Kodiaq's modules being variant 'C', and the Superb's being variant 'B', but that's it. 

 

I've had my Sportline since September, and I've often noticed a bug with the blind spot detection system. If I am in lane 1 of a motorway, a car passing in lane 3 will be detected as being in my blind spot. It also (correctly) detects cars passing in lane 2. 

 

I often drive late at night and in the early hours on motorways. The 4 lane M25 seems to be full of drivers who like to sit in lane 3, when lanes 1 and 2 are clear (that's a rant for another day!). The upshot of this is the offside mirror LED for the blind spot detection coming on whenever a car passes 2 lanes away. I know for a fact this is not right. I trundle along at around 60-65mph at that time of night, usually with the adaptive cruise enabled, this manes a ton of cars pass by on a typical journey, this also means that damned LED is on and off all the time. 

 

The biggest issue by far is when I join a dual carriageway or motorway via the entry slip. As usual: accelerate along the slip road to match the traffic's speed, mirror, over shoulder safety check, indicate and merge when safe to do so. But...If a car is sitting in lane 2 (with lane 1 being empty) the blind spot detection LED blinks furiously, vibrates the steering wheel and applies a little opposite steering torque to guide me back into the slip road, as it thinks I am about to hit something. This can be very distracting and quite alarming, seeing as I've just checked my mirror and over my shoulder to find it's empty and safe to join lane one.

It means I always have to check all of this a second time in a split second, in case something has quickly dived into lane 1 and straight into my blind spot. To date, this have NEVER been the case. 

 

I raised this issue with the dealer during a service visit - no dice. To their credit, they checked the measured values, checked for faults etc. and found nothing untoward. The issues started when I escalated it to Skoda customer services via email, with a detailed description of what's going on. I won't go into any more detail as it's still ongoing, but I will update this at some point in the future.......

 

I would like to hear from everyone else who has this system on their Kodiaq, and how it behaves for them. As I say, I never had this behaviour on my Superb, and after doing some digging on the system - Made by Hella - I have found my Kodiaq's behaviour to be at odds with what Hella says.

 

When you're repeatedly told there isn't anything wrong with the system, that other Kodaiqs 'behave the same way' and that it's a 'characteristic' of the car, you start to doubt yourself.

 

 

[gojoholo]

I too have noticed the blind spot detector going off inappropriately (me in lane 1, overtaker in lane 3). 

[Yogi-Bear]

I've noticed the same thing as you - but with some non-scientific experimenting, I noticed it happened when the car 2 lanes away was black (or a dark colour). Doesn't happen if it is a light coloured car. Make of that what you will :-)

 

Never had a problem at the bottom of a slip road though...

[dstev2000]

This is a quote from VW's website that describes the system's operation: 

 

The system is designed to alert you only when necessary: stationary objects or oncoming vehicles do not trigger warnings. It also ignores vehicles which are more than one lane across, so you're not distracted with frequent warnings.

 

This is from the Kodiaq's manual: 

› Wizard for “blind spot” monitoring - operation

At a speed of more than 15 km/h, the area alongside and behind the vehicle is monitored by the system. At the same time, the distance and the difference in speed between your vehicle and other vehicles in the monitored area are measured.

When driving, the system monitors an area the size of a normal lane width to the left and right.

If a vehicle is detected in the “blind spot” area, the system indicates this vehicle by the warning light  lighting up in the exterior mirror.

 

 

The system is only supposed to register the presence of a vehicle that is less than 3.6 metres from the vehicle. A standard motorway lane is around 3.65m wide. If a typical car is 2m wide, that leaves an average gap between the car and lane edge of 800mm. Same for the car in lane 3. That's a combined width of 1.6m plus the standard lane width of let's say 3.6m. That's a total gap between the two cars of around 5.2m. that's a darned sight more than the 3.6m Hella are quoting. 

 

In my Superb, the only time I would get a trigger from a car that is 2 lanes away, is in a contraflow/narrow lane scenario when driving through road works. Also on dual carriageways with particularly narrow lanes, such as the A3 when driving into London (for those of you who are familiar with it). This is to be expected, as the system cannot distinguish a narrow lane scenario and adapt accordingly. 

 

The slip road issue is at the point where you merge with the traffic, so still in the slip road itself, but the car thinks it detects something directly alongside, when in fact it's still 2 lanes away. 

This is from Hella's website, and describes the overall operating principle of the blind spot system. My old car behaved exactly as described below. 

Also, my car doesn't give me an early warning of a fast approaching car (high speed differential). It lights up when the car is literally alongside me. 

Functional description of the lane change assistant

The sensing area (A) of the radar sensors is approx. 50 m to the rear and approx. 3.6 m (B) to the side of the vehicle. 

 

The system uses radar sensors to monitor the traffic behind and next to the vehicle. The area monitored includes the "blind spot" which the driver cannot see on both the driver and passenger sides.

 

If there is a vehicle in the monitored area and if a lane change is not taking place, the driver is informed by the LED displays in the right and left outside mirrors lighting up a little. The luminous intensity is lower so the driver is not distracted unnecessarily. In this situation, should the driver actuate the direction indicator lever for changing lane, he or she is warned by the warning lamp in the outside mirror of the corresponding side flashing intensively. 

 

If the system senses a vehicle, the control unit in question also calculates the time remaining before a potential collision. This evaluation is used by the system to distinguish between vehicles which are approaching, flowing with the traffic and falling behind.

[dstev2000]

33 minutes ago, WiggosSideburns said:

I've noticed the same thing as you - but with some non-scientific experimenting, I noticed it happened when the car 2 lanes away was black (or a dark colour). Doesn't happen if it is a light coloured car. Make of that what you will :-)

 

Never had a problem at the bottom of a slip road though...

I've not experimented with different vehicle colours or sizes. It's where you find there's loads of Kodiaqs out there with incorrectly calibrated blind spot systems on them. I am guessing the modules have to be calibrated for specific models? purely down to where they are fitted to the car. I know the procedure is a PITA to carry out. It needs a special rig with a doppler radar to do it properly. the doppler simulates an incoming vehicle for an accurate setup.

Are they pre-calibrated by Hella on a model by model batch method? or is the calibration done at the factory I wonder? It would only take a minor SNAFU to get things mixed up somewhere...... 

 

Incidentally, there are no faults on the system, and the measuring blocks don't yield anything particularly useful.

[dstev2000]

After firing off an email to Hella, they have come back and said they do not perform ANY calibration of the modules they send out to OEMs. This would suggest the calibration is done at the factory, and would therefore have to be specific to each model, as the modules are mounted at differing heights and angles relative to the thrust line/geometric centre of differing models. It's unlikely the calibration is performed at dealer level during PDI, as they don't possess the equipment to do it. The email from Hella also suggests - based on my description of the problem - the sensors are either not positioned correctly, or haven't been calibrated correctly. 

 

Hella's technical reference documents also require modules to be re-calibrated if removed/replaced for repair works and such like:

 

Calibration

To ensure that the lane change assistant works safely, it must be adapted after the following work:

• If one or both control units have been replaced
• If repair work has been carried out on the body at the rear
• If the position of the rear bumper has been changed
• If the mounting position of the control units has been changed due to fitting and removal

I await Skoda's reply. It's been a whole week since I sent an email with the various bits of information attached to it. Hopefully this means they've escalated it to their technical department and/or the factory. 

Most likely outcome to this is to find a VW Group dealer with the correct calibration kit, or a Hella (or approved) service centre who can do the calibration. 

[silver1011]

Good investigative work. It shouldn't come as a surprise I guess that Hella's response arrived far quicker than that from Skoda UK, assuming you ever get one.

[dstev2000]

Last time Skoda got back to me was about a week. It was a phone call suggesting the issue is a ‘characteristic’ of my car, and that I should go away and never bother them again. Of course, the person at the other end of the phone got both barrels. 

 

I’ll keep adding updates as and when required, in case anyone else has issues with this system. Unless you’re very familiar with the system and/or have had it on a previous car (as I did), you may think it’s doing what it’s supposed to do. At some point I’ll put up the video clips a rear passenger got for me. 

[fcaselli]

I must say that I experience the exact same behaviours as you do.

Never having had a previous experience, I thought it was just poor engineering.

Please post when and if Skoda answers you

[dstev2000]

I've had an update on this. Despite the information and evidence I sent to Skoda, and the manufacturer (Hella) suggesting this is not the correct behaviour for this system, and having experience of my previous car (Superb) with the same system - which behaved exactly as Hella suggested - they have again replied by saying this is a 'characteristic' of the car. They have given me no technical information to support their claim of it being a 'characteristic'. They have basically fobbed me off with b*ll****, expecting me to accept it and go away. I have to say I am extremely disappointed with Skoda, as they have shown little to no effort in attempting to address this problem. 

 

This is of course extremely irritating as I know damned well that it doesn't work as it should do. I will now take some time to consider a few options. 

[Steve101uk]

You could pay for it and then make a claim through the small claims court. Even the threat is likely to make them cough up. I have got legal cover on my home insurance, that would support a claim. Have you got legal cover?

 

Good luck. 

 

Steve

[silver1011]

Skoda UK's response shouldn't come as a surprise, they'll always follow the path of least resistance.

 

It's easier for them to fob you off in the hope you'll go away.

 

How you choose to react to that is down to you, but you'll be fighting them all the way.

 

Out of curiosity, what would be your ideal outcome?

 

I'm assuming for them to properly fix the issue, Skoda UK (only an importer remember) will need to officially log the issue with the factory. The factory will then need to re-test the whole system including the sensor location and calibration processes as well as developing / changing new coding or software. If the issue is widespread then chances are they already know about it and will have initiated the work required to fix the issue already, but they'll never tell you that.

 

The other option will be to negotiate a refund of the cost you've paid for the feature.

[fcaselli]

I think they will probably fix it on a future version.

If it’s all down to software you (and I) may receive it on a coming visit to the workshop.

If it needs more than software, then only future customers will have the benefit of the fix.

[dstev2000]

The most annoying part of all this is the overwhelming evidence I have provided: Video evidence of the system misbehaving, tons of technical information about how the system should work etc. etc. And I was merely fobbed off with a few paragraphs. 

 

In my opinion (and that of Hella), it requires a simple recalibration and it'll be good as new. 

 

VW's SSP 396 is another source of information on how the system should operate. The figure of 3.8m monitoring width is a constant across all information sources I have found. That's 3.8m from the sensor. when you add the space in the car's own lane, plus that of the adjoining lane, there is absolutely no way there should ever be a blind spot warning from a car in the 3rd lane. The exception to this is excessively narrow lanes such as road works and the odd spurious radar reflection. 

 

I am now looking to get it done myself, and reclaim the expenditure from Skoda in any way necessary. 

 

From delving into various technical documentation as part of my research (Hella, Bosch and VW themselves), the calibration process requires the use of a test rig with a doppler generator to simulate the position of another vehicle. The system expects a very specific radar return in order to be correctly calibrated. I have a fairly big VW main dealer close to me, I will approach them and enquire. Hella make their own test and calibration systems and VW have their own VAS test rigs. 

 

Sensor mis-positioning, sensor replacement, bumper repairs, incorrect paint application can all knock the system out of calibration. It only takes a little knock when the car is being shipped over from the factory, a quick repair and no subsequent recalibration to get the problems I am experiencing. Failing that, loads of Kodaiqs could have left the factory over the past 12-18 months with a minor calibration error on every vehicle - who knows? 

 

The most annoying thing of all is that I think my Kodaiq is a fantastic car, but at the moment this tiny little issue, and Skoda's dismissive and patronising attitude is really knocking the whole experience. I know it shouldn't but it just does. 

[silver1011]

Skoda UK know nothing about their cars, especially anything remotely technical.

 

All they do is refer the questions to their technical department (a bloke in the office with the owners manual), or failing that they send an enquiry to the factory.

 

Then, when all that fails, they fall back on the fact that "we're simply the importer Sir".

 

Poor, very poor.

 

Either way, your car isn't performing as described. Leave it with the dealer, jump in one of their courtesy cars and ask them to ring you when it's fixed. If it was simply a 'characteristic' of the system then it would be described in the manual, or in the plethora of VAG documentation. It isn't, so therefore the car has been mis-sold.

 

Like I said before, how far you pursue this will be down to how Skoda UK's avoidance and diversionary tactics take to wear you down.

 

Edited 12 February, 2019 by silver1011

[Yogi-Bear]

2 hours ago, silver1011 said:

so therefore the car has been mis-sold.

 

You need to be very careful how you phrase things... the car has not been mis-sold at all. It was sold having the blind spot assist system, and it has a functioning blind spot assist system. The fact that the system is a tad on the over-sensitive side does not mean something has been mis-sold.

 

For all we know, it could be a deliberate choice on the part of VAG/Skoda to start calibrating the system so that it detects cars further away. They could see this as a way of covering their backsides and making sure it has more false-positives (annoying but no crash) than false-negatives (with all the potential consequences that could involve). It's the same with all the safety systems... the front sensor is far too sensitive and gives off too many false-positives. The minimum gap on the ACC @ 70mph would allow an oil tanker in. The rear cross traffic thing slams the brakes on the moment it detects something (it has faster reactions than I do, although that's not hard!).

 

Personally, I don't mind these things being slightly over-eager. It actually gives me more confidence that when I need them to react / alert me they will, and if they make me double-check before changing lane or something like that, then what the hell - better that than the idiots that don't check at all. In safety systems on a car, false-positives are always better than false-negatives.

[Steve101uk]

You make a reasonable point!

 

steve

2 hours ago, Oli_M said:

Kodiaq SEL with Columbus 9.2 system

 

[silver1011]

1 hour ago, WiggosSideburns said:

You need to be very careful how you phrase things... the car has not been mis-sold at all. It was sold having the blind spot assist system, and it has a functioning blind spot assist system. The fact that the system is a tad on the over-sensitive side does not mean something has been mis-sold.

 

A quick 'Google search' of the definition of the word 'mis-sold' resulted in the following:

 

As described. For example if you bought a toy for your children which was advertised as 'batteries included' but upon opening the box you found no batteries, you could claim a full refund. This also applies if the advertising that accompanied an item gave an incorrect description or if an item was incorrectly described by a sales assistant.

 

Fit for the purpose advertised. This means the item must perform as the advertising says it will; for example if you bought a toy for your children which advertised musical sounds but the toy remained mute, you could claim a full refund.

 

Taking each one in turn, just because Blind Spot Detect is fitted and is functioning, does not make it 'as described'. From the information posted by the OP I would deduce that the system is not operating as described. By 'described' I am referring to the documentation and information that the OP has found which describes how the Blind Spot Detect feature is supposed to function.

 

The Blind Spot Detect feature has been 'incorrectly described'.

 

Secondly, the Blind Spot Detect feature is not performing as the advertising says it will. Again, using the information provided by the OP the advertising suggests the system is supposed to detect vehicles in the adjoining lane, not those in lanes further away, which directly contradicts Skoda's advertising claims.

 

There's nothing wrong with Skoda building in some additional contingency into the system, as long as they reflect this in the material used to sell the feature. By all accounts they've failed to do this.

 

It would be good if the OP could share with us the documentation he's found which suggests the feature should only be detecting traffic in the adjoining lane. From the quick search I've just done, detail is lacking...