4 minutes ago, moley said:

Intelligent Speed Assistance?

 

From the article:

 

“ISA will provide a driver with feedback, based on maps and road sign observation, always when speed limit is exceeded."

 

While a limiter could be construed as a type of feedback, I don't think many manufacturers are ready to be on the hook for speed-related accidents just yet.

Cars before the legislation will be worth a bit more.

 

I understand that cars oin some countries have a buzzer that sounds when you exceed the upper speed limit. Saudi is one.

 

How will cars know which roads they are on. Are manufacturers committging to maintain a sat nav within every car with a guaranteed up-to-date  record of the speed limits on every road for the lifetime of the vehicle? Will it become pat of the MOT test? What if a manufacturer goes bust or ceases to support the tech, will your car become unroadworthy at MOT time?

Most sat nav now don't have speed limits on them because of the risk of getting it wrong.

 

Many pitfalls and problems here expected to be sorted out my the magic technology want politicians like to wave.

 

Lambo's due for tax on Monday - that'll be a battle!

I've had several cases where a GPS based speed camera "detector" displays the speed limit on a road parallel to the one I'm driving on - one near Totton is where I'm on a 70mph dual carriageway and the parallel road is a 30mph limit and has a speed camera. How will this system ensure that it doesn't suddenly assume I'm in the 30mph limit?

 

On both the sat navs in my Octavia and my other car the speed limits are often incorrectly displayed, one road I use regularly has a 40mph limit but the sat nav says it's 60mph. This is caused by mapping errors, how will this system be updated when speed limits are changed?

 

Plus several owners on the Octavia forum have reported that the traffic sign recognition isn't perfect, especially when the signs are dirty, so even this isn't a foolproof backup to GPS.

 

Seems to me like a LOT of development and testing is needed before this system can be called safe...

I understand the principles behind this directive but IMO it's not really the answer.

 

Rather than just focus on speed, develop collision avoidance mechanisms and have them fitted to cars, prevent vehicles from travelling too close to each other.

 

I'm sure it would also be possible for a vehicle to work out if it's travelling too fast for an upcoming bend too.

 

There are of course more measures which could make driving safer but "speed" is always the most emotive.  I'm fairly certain that preventing someone from travelling a few MPH over the limit won't be as effective at saving lives as measures that try to prevent two cars coming together or trying to exceed the limits of physics?

3 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

I've had several cases where a GPS based speed camera "detector" displays the speed limit on a road parallel to the one I'm driving on - one near Totton is where I'm on a 70mph dual carriageway and the parallel road is a 30mph limit and has a speed camera. How will this system ensure that it doesn't suddenly assume I'm in the 30mph limit?

 

Seems to me like a LOT of development and testing is needed before this system can be called safe...

Conversely, when you get a ticket for doing 69 on the 30mph road.

Who pays the thumping fine and gets the points?

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

I've had several cases where a GPS based speed camera "detector" displays the speed limit on a road parallel to the one I'm driving on - one near Totton is where I'm on a 70mph dual carriageway and the parallel road is a 30mph limit and has a speed camera. How will this system ensure that it doesn't suddenly assume I'm in the 30mph limit?

 

On both the sat navs in my Octavia and my other car the speed limits are often incorrectly displayed, one road I use regularly has a 40mph limit but the sat nav says it's 60mph. This is caused by mapping errors, how will this system be updated when speed limits are changed?

 

Plus several owners on the Octavia forum have reported that the traffic sign recognition isn't perfect, especially when the signs are dirty, so even this isn't a foolproof backup to GPS.

 

Seems to me like a LOT of development and testing is needed before this system can be called safe...

 

The system will have to combine GNSS with mapping and onboard & roadside augmentation systems I think in order to be able to function reliably and accurately. Phones are already doing this by using triangulation to cell towers alongside GNSS data. We will also see navigation systems with support for multiple GNSS. GPS (US), Galileo (EU), GLONASS (Russia) combinations are pretty common now, and devices are on the market that support Beidou (China) and Quasi-Zenith (Japan). The Huawei P20 Pro already supports all 5 of these for example.

 

We're going to see ground-based support systems deployed anyway in the coming years to enable autonomous vehicles. I would suspect that part of the reason for it being a warning system for now is that the infrastructure to support limitation properly won't be in place for several years yet.

 

There's a nice comparison of the different GNSS here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation#Comparison_of_systems

1 hour ago, punyXpress said:

Conversely, when you get a ticket for doing 69 on the 30mph road.

Who pays the thumping fine and gets the points?

 

You can be sure that of all parts of the system the legal side will be perfectly honed to ensure the driver is responsible in all cases.

 

But to add more fuel to the fire. This will also rely on ALL local bodies to update centralised speed limit databases promptly when changes are made. And imho (and more accurately imhe) there is sweet Fanny Adams chance of that happening.

 

I could accept a visual alert that I have exceeded a probably local speed limit. Other than that bog off and let me drive. Bad driving is more of an issue than out and out speed. But it's the easiest to deal with. Low hanging fruit.

Building a system to stop idiots changing lanes without looking etc is much harder.

Waiting each day for the postman to see if a NIP comes through the door.

On Sunday just a bit speedy and yet i know where the van sits on the flyover on the M80 about Denny but not sure i braked hard soon enough, Ahhh. 

I was driving in my usual autonomous mode ignoring the 'speed limit' warning...

I'm just remembering back in the 1930s, MGs having a device called a "thirtylight" on them. It was designed to light up green at 27mph, and go out again at 31mph.

I've already got an alert set on the car to go off if things get silly. You know should I creep up to 72mph or something similarly crazy.

8 minutes ago, Aspman said:

I've already got an alert set on the car to go off if things get silly. You know should I creep up to 72mph or something similarly crazy.

That is crazy 72mph in a 30mph zone. Talking of which in our town there are two of those signs that light as you approach. I kid you not I am doing 30mph on the digital speedo and it flashes up 31 or 32mph. How is that even possible as all speedo's over read.

15 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

That is crazy 72mph in a 30mph zone. Talking of which in our town there are two of those signs that light as you approach. I kid you not I am doing 30mph on the digital speedo and it flashes up 31 or 32mph. How is that even possible as all speedo's over read.

 

Well so you'd think. A mate of mine tested my BMW speedo using GPS. At an indicated 70mph I was doing 70mph. It was dead on.

 

1 or 2mph is probably within it's tolerence as the beam plays off different surfaces on the car. It's not taking you to court so doen't need to be calibrated.

18 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

two of those signs that light as you approach. I kid you not I am doing 30mph on the digital speedo and it flashes up 31 or 32mph.

There was one on my commute in a 40mph limit "protecting" a 30mph limit. It was a regular "game" at my work to torture it by driving at it at 40mph indicated, and not brake until we set it off since there was enough space to brake safely and legally from 40 to 30 between the trigger point and the 30mph signs.

4 hours ago, chimaera said:

The system will have to combine GNSS with mapping and onboard & roadside augmentation systems I think in order to be able to function reliably and accurately

My point is that ALL of those systems are prone to error, so the possibility (even if it's remote) DOES exist of ALL being faulty AT THE SAME TIME - and the system won't "know" that they are faulty since it has no other point of reference so it can't disable itself...

4 hours ago, chimaera said:

The system will have to combine GNSS with mapping and onboard & roadside augmentation systems I think in order to be able to function reliably and accurately.

 

It will fall back to traffic sign recognition using the windscreen camera. That will have priority anyway. The system in my Superb works reliably enough.

4 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

My point is that ALL of those systems are prone to error, so the possibility (even if it's remote) DOES exist of ALL being faulty AT THE SAME TIME - and the system won't "know" that they are faulty since it has no other point of reference so it can't disable itself...

The chances of multiple independent systems failing exactly simultaneously is vanishingly small, you'd have a much better chance of winning the lottery. Coupling roadside systems with onboard systems also makes a complete failure unlikely since they operate independently of each other. If either side detects a fault state it can communicate it to the other and trigger a failsafe operation e.g. requiring the driver to take over control of the vehicle or enforcing a low speed limit.

Even if such a complete failure were to happen, there are still ways to identify the error state and flag it as a problem e.g. set up the system to read the speed limit for 1-2 km ahead of the current position: if the current detected/calculated limit diverges from what's expected then the controller can flag an error. That's off the top of my head - a team designing a system doubtless would come up with more, there are specialists who do this stuff all the time.
 

Whether we like it or not (most of us here probably in the not camp), these systems are on the way and they will be robust by the time they're required and implemented. Coming up with highly unlikely failure scenarios won't change this.

22 hours ago, Skoffski said:

I was driving in my usual autonomous mode ignoring the 'speed limit' warning...

 

Driving 'without due care and attention'......................Who, me 

With lots of care and attention on a motorway rounding a big bend, just a bit quick, but with enough attention to see the Camera Van up on the flyover off in the distance.

Just waiting to see if you need to be straight on and how long in the operators sight line.

Not that hopeful.

 

When caught if you do a crime you pay the fine, take the points, get your insurance policies loaded, 

and in Scotland no chance of a 'Speed Awareness course'.  But then you know you speed.

 

Edited 29 March, 20197 yr by Skoffski

I like the bit about 'systems to monitor the driver's attention levels'.

 

If they use internal facing cameras it will seem apparent that most drivers have lazy eyes, when they are actually just looking out for pot holes, lol.

 

And what are they gonna do to wake you up? Any suggestions???

From experience, by the time you spot the camera van it's too late, it has already clocked you. (the latest one being tested in Gloucestershire has a range in excess of 1 km.)

There is no operators sight line - the camera is set up on a specific location and clocks your speed as you pass that point.

The reading is virtually instantaneous - to be fair there is a slight delay but as the reflected beam travels at the speed of light it aint a lot 

IME not so when there is a good few vehicles on a Motorway, or on some 60MPH roads near me where they park just around a bend and if safe because nothing behind you brake quickly.

Got the points from when it is to late seeing them.

52 minutes ago, Tilt said:

I like the bit about 'systems to monitor the driver's attention levels'.

 

If they use internal facing cameras it will seem apparent that most drivers have lazy eyes, when they are actually just looking out for pot holes, lol.

 

And what are they gonna do to wake you up? Any suggestions???

Also, what's the system going to do when you're wearing sunglasses and it can't actually see your eyes?

20 minutes ago, Russ77 said:

Also, what's the system going to do when you're wearing sunglasses and it can't actually see your eyes?

Wife will be ok she got given a special pair with "KAROQ" printed on them so the car should recognise the driver.

19 hours ago, chimaera said:

The chances of multiple independent systems failing exactly simultaneously is vanishingly small

But the chances of the software that combines those systems being faulty is actually very high given the laughably poor state of software testing nowadays (usually scripts written by the implementer and hence containing the same wrong assumptions made when designing the software) - as shown by the problems with the MCAS system on the Boeing 737 Max 8...

Edited 29 March, 20197 yr by PetrolDave