SKODA OCTAVIA 2 1,9tdi starting problem, HELP!

[Coinneach]

This is my second attempt to find an answer to my starting problem on this forum.  I am at a loss as to the cause of the problem and It is very difficult to describe the problem, but here goes.  

Car: Skoda Octavia 2008 1.9 tdi Elegance, 45,000 miles.  Car runs perfectly normally, this is just a starting problem.  The problem only occurs when the engine is hot and the first start attempt after a run.  After the engine has cooled and when cold, it starts perfectly normally.

 

The problem:  When the engine is hot, and at the end of a run, if the engine is stopped and then restarted, it fails to fire smoothly and regularly.   It just sounds like a jumble of cylinders firing, completely irregularly and ends by not starting.    It is not that the engine does not fire, and you have to keep turning it over on the starter.  Not at all, the engine does fire up but irregularly as if it was firing in the wrong order.  It is just a jumble of sound.  As a rule, on the second attempt, it will then start normally, today though it did it twice in a row.

 

I have had the car into the Skoda garage here in Spain 3 times.  Unfortunately, it has never done this bad starting while at the garage, so they have to rely on my description.  The first time, it was diagnosed with a timing sensor failure and this was replaced.  This did not cure it.  The second time, they thought that the timing might be out, which it was marginally, so they corrected that.  That made no difference.  Today, I had it in again to have the starter motor checked and cleaned as they thought that perhaps the engine was not getting turned over fast enough. (I never had any faith in that diagnoses)  That has made no difference, it started badly the first time I tried it after coming off the motorway on my way home.

 

Having started (or not started) badly, why can it then start normally?  To me that would rule out failed or faulty heat sensor, (was suggested in the past) because if that was causing it to start badly the first time, it would surely do it the second time.   If the ecu thinks the car is cold (when it is actually hot) due to a faulty heat sensor, and puts in too much fuel for a hot engine, would that cause it?   And if so, why would it be ok the second time. 

It is a complete mystery to me, and to my Skoda garage it would seem, so if anyone has any ideas, Please Help!

 

 

[marcusmarcus]

A few weeks ago I made a post here, I had a very similar problem and managed to get it fixed. Just read my last post there, as much of it isn't actually about the problem at hand.

 

My car would shake horribly while starting, just like yours, only when the engine was hot and in 80% of cases about. Everything was normal while the engine was cold. I went to the dealer, they told me that the starter was too weak and it didn't have enough revolutions. 

I bought a new Bosch starter, identical to the one that is OE, the only difference is that they don't make them in Germany but in Hungary now. Hopefully the quality didn't drop because of that.

That fixed the problem completely. I took apart the old starter, the brushes were worn down completely that their housing even started to scrape. I decided to trust skoda dealer (which I usually don't trust) that it was the starter even though a lot of people and two different mechanics told me that it can not be the starter, that the starter problem would manifest differently and that it was a fault of the DMF (which I replaced a couple of months prior).

A company that does chip tuning in my country has a description of this problem on their website. According to them, when the engine is hot, the ECU injects a lot less fuel versus when it's cold and it's normal for a starter to weaken over time (in my case the brushes were worn, maybe coupled with something else). So they say you can either fix or replace the starter or have them adjust the ECU to inject more fuel. Even though that might fix the problem, if the brushes are worn, you still have to rebuild the starter, right? 

 

Maybe have your starter checked again or see if you could borrow a new one from somewhere just to check if in fact it could be a starter problem. Also, I don't know whether it makes a difference, but the OE and Bosch starter I bought are both 1.7 kW. Valeo, whose starters were also fitted to Skodas, is 2.0 kW. Or ask the chip tuning companies whether they can adjust your map - the one I found near me charges about 50 €, much cheaper than a new starter. Check out their video on this problem. Hope that helps.

 

[marcusmarcus]

Just to add, the auto-electrician who replaced my starter (I ordered it from Autodoc and brought it to him) asked me why I want to replace it. I explained the problem and he also said that won't fix your problem, it's the DMF. And note he's supposed to be an expert in this stuff and he has loads of excellent reviews online. Right after he replaced it, I drove home and checked, no shaking at all. It's been almost a month since then, absolutely no problems.

My only concern for you is that perhaps they didn't service or check your starter correctly. I know mechanics often take shortcuts. And this way they can keep chaning various sensors and charging you money for it.

[Coinneach]

Marcusmarcus, thank you for taking the time to reply.  I have listened carefully to the video you posted.  The first starting in the video is how my car was before the timing sensor was diagnosed (VCDS).  So this is the order my problem happened in.

Timeline:  First time the engine started badly, (and failed to start, it always fails to start when it is doing this) it was so bad I thought the engine had blown up.  But no, restarted it and all ok.  It did it a couple of more times in the next few days and then the starting became slow, ie turning over on the starter for a several seconds before firing just like in your video, but when it fired (both mine and the video) it fired correctly, smoothly, normally.  When it was like this, it was the same hot or cold. So I took it to my Skoda garage, they said it was the starter motor but I argued with him so he put it on the computer and found the timing sensor had failed.  After replacing the timing sensor (€190 worth) the engine would start almost immediately again, as in start 2 in the video.   But a few days later it did this horrible bad shaking noisy bangy start again.  I thought that the new timing sensor had failed so returned to Skoda who checked it and all was ok according to the computer.  He suggested it might be a timing issue, so checked and tweaked the timing, it was within limits but he tweaked it anyway.  Made no difference.  Still started (or failed to start) like a bag of old bones when hot - but NEVER at the bloody garage!  So as I said, had the starter looked at yesterday. 

The car is 2008, only 45,000 miles and still has the original Varta battery.  Surely if it was a weak battery the problem would occur when the engine was cold, not hot. 

 

I have decided that I am going to video the starting so that I can show it to Skoda to see if it suggests anything.

When I first read your post, I thought you meant DPF, at least that is what I assumed as DMF would never have crossed my mind.  I had another octavia with a completely knackered DMF and the car still started normally.  As far as I know, this age car does not have a DPF.

 

Marcusmarcus, as my problem does not sound like the first start in that video, could you descibe this "shaking start" you had to see if it matches mine because obviously if it is the same, then my problem is probably the starter motor as well.  But given the cost of a new one, I would like to be more convinced.  Thanks.

 

  

[pikpilot]

On the Mk 1 Octy with the 1.9 PD engine, hot starting was an issue but only a in a way of just refusing to fire without a lot of cranking when the engine was hot. You may have this as an underlying problem as well as a starter motor brush issue.

 

This engine looks for a minimum cranking rpm before fuelling, except that this is overridden when cold. The cure was easy, replace  the old battery. If your battery has never been replaced, it is now eleven years old and must be due for replacement soon. 

I replaced mine at 11 years of age in my 03 0cty.

Edited 11 July, 2019 by pikpilot

[marcusmarcus]

3 hours ago, Coinneach said:

Marcusmarcus, thank you for taking the time to reply.  I have listened carefully to the video you posted.  The first starting in the video is how my car was before the timing sensor was diagnosed (VCDS).  So this is the order my problem happened in.

Timeline:  First time the engine started badly, (and failed to start, it always fails to start when it is doing this) it was so bad I thought the engine had blown up.  But no, restarted it and all ok.  It did it a couple of more times in the next few days and then the starting became slow, ie turning over on the starter for a several seconds before firing just like in your video, but when it fired (both mine and the video) it fired correctly, smoothly, normally.  When it was like this, it was the same hot or cold. So I took it to my Skoda garage, they said it was the starter motor but I argued with him so he put it on the computer and found the timing sensor had failed.  After replacing the timing sensor (€190 worth) the engine would start almost immediately again, as in start 2 in the video.   But a few days later it did this horrible bad shaking noisy bangy start again.  I thought that the new timing sensor had failed so returned to Skoda who checked it and all was ok according to the computer.  He suggested it might be a timing issue, so checked and tweaked the timing, it was within limits but he tweaked it anyway.  Made no difference.  Still started (or failed to start) like a bag of old bones when hot - but NEVER at the bloody garage!  So as I said, had the starter looked at yesterday. 

The car is 2008, only 45,000 miles and still has the original Varta battery.  Surely if it was a weak battery the problem would occur when the engine was cold, not hot. 

 

I have decided that I am going to video the starting so that I can show it to Skoda to see if it suggests anything.

When I first read your post, I thought you meant DPF, at least that is what I assumed as DMF would never have crossed my mind.  I had another octavia with a completely knackered DMF and the car still started normally.  As far as I know, this age car does not have a DPF.

 

Marcusmarcus, as my problem does not sound like the first start in that video, could you descibe this "shaking start" you had to see if it matches mine because obviously if it is the same, then my problem is probably the starter motor as well.  But given the cost of a new one, I would like to be more convinced.  Thanks.

 

  

Sure. So when I would start the engine while it was hot, it would start pretty quickly still, about 2-3 turns of the starter but I'd feel as if literally someone took a giant hammer and knocked it on the engine two or three times. It was loud, you could feel those two or three impacts like someone just hit your car in an accident. Then the engine would start and everything would be normal. So two or three violent shakes you could hear and feel. I agree it's not like in the video, there it takes much longer to crank it then mine did.

I assumed you already checked the battery, but if you didn't that's the first thing to check with any starting issues. Especially today because the current car batteries that they make can last as little as two or three years. I actually had a bad battery which contributed to my problem somewhat. I replaced it with one that I had at home in reserve and even though it didn't fix the problem, the shaking was a little less rough, but that was just 2-3 days before I replaced the starter so I didn't really have many chances to observe. Despite the battery being bad, the cold start was perfect. 

Have your battery checked somewhere, most garages have battery test tools and will check it for free, it takes about a minute and you'll know if it's the battery. Varta car batteries aren't among the better ones I think, their quality dropped. 

I'm not sure that the DMF can be checked without taking it off, but I wound't even think about that, your mileage isn't nearly enough for it to fail. And no worries about the DPF also, they weren't fitted back then fortunately for all of us and our wallets.

[marcusmarcus]

3 hours ago, pikpilot said:

On the Mk 1 Octy with the 1.9 PD engine, hot starting was an issue but only a in a way of just refusing to fire without a lot of cranking when the engine was hot. You may have this as an underlying problem as well as a starter motor brush issue.

 

This engine looks for a minimum cranking rpm before fuelling, except that this is overridden when cold. The cure was easy, replace  the old battery. If your battery has never been replaced, it is now eleven years old and must be due for replacement soon. 

I replaced mine at 11 years of age in my 03 0cty.

How the hell you people make it this long on a battery?? haha

Mine original one went out at 5 years, the second I bough (mid price) went out after 4 and the one I have now, the one which is giving me issues, a high-priced Exide Premium 77 Ah (the original was 61 Ah) is not even two years old and at 50% of health!! Fortunately for me, the warranty on it is 3 years so I'll have to go argue with the shop to replace it.

[xman]

1 minute ago, marcusmarcus said:

How the hell you people make it this long on a battery?? haha

Mine original one went out at 5 years, the second I bough (mid price) went out after 4 and the one I have now, the one which is giving me issues, a high-priced Exide Premium 77 Ah (the original was 61 Ah) is not even two years old and at 50% of health!! Fortunately for me, the warranty on it is 3 years so I'll have to go argue with the shop to replace it.

Try charging the battery fully from time to time if you are an infrequent or low mileage user. Lead acid battery life depends on keeping them fully charged.

[marcusmarcus]

1 minute ago, xman said:

Try charging the battery fully from time to time if you are an infrequent or low mileage user. Lead acid battery life depends on keeping them fully charged.

Well both me and my dad use the car and it's a lot of short trips, sometimes the car is started 15-20 times a day. And considering the alternator has never been serviced or replaced, it is to be expeted it doesn't charge as well as it used to (my charging voltage is 13.6-13.8 on idle). I didn't even think of that until you mentioned it now, I'll definetly try putting the battery on a charger once or twice a month, it definetly won't hurt to try. Thanks man!

[xman]

13.6-13.8 volts is low even on idle, unless you have a micro hybrid (stop/start) set up (don't think mk2 had these - it would have stop/start and an EFB/AGM battery and current sensor on negative battery terminal)

 

Should be around 14.3 volts

[marcusmarcus]

I know it's on the low side, but the autoelectrician said it was still good (he measured 13.8). And I can't find a definite answer online, some people say it's good, some that it isn't, I have no idea anymore. 

This is what I get from reading with a voltmeter: Idle, about 30°C outside temp, fan on setting 3, low beam on, AC off - 13.6-13.9 (sometimes it's 13.6, sometimes higher, but it doesn't fluxtuate while I measure it)

Then same setting - with AC on - 13.5 volts

Then I tried AC on, fan on max setting, low and high beam on, fog lights and rear fog light on - 13.1 V. I reved it up above 2000 rpm and then it was 13.3 V.

It's a Valeo alternator

[Guest]

You can have a battery showing good voltage that is damaged internally and cannot supply the rated current.

[xman]

Possibly a bad voltage regulator.

 

Anyway charging the battery regularly will stop it deteriorating so quickly. Could be you are running around on 60% charge average and a standard battery will sulphate over time.

[marcusmarcus]

20 minutes ago, MicMac said:

You can have a battery showing good voltage that is damaged internally and cannot supply the rated current.

Exactly. That's why I suggested having the battery checked with a scan tool. This bad battery that I have has a 12.8 voltage which is good, but only 49% of it's capacity left.

 

8 minutes ago, xman said:

Possibly a bad voltage regulator.

 

Anyway charging the battery regularly will stop it deteriorating so quickly. Could be you are running around on 60% charge average and a standard battery will sulphate over time.

It was probably even lower than 60% most of the time. I'll have the started fixed and hopefully they will accept the warranty of the battery and change it for free.

[Coinneach]

Marcus, thanks, your description is spot on, sounds just like mine.  Ok, so from your experience it must be a battery/starter issue.  Interesting there are different kw of starters out there, and presumably the more powerful ought to be better for this problem - or is it?  Nothing is ever as you think it ought to be these days.  Will it just require more battery power and so not perform as well with the normal 61kwh fitted to octavias.  If I get a choice, is Bosch the one?

 

Micmac: 

12 minutes ago, MicMac said:

You can have a battery showing good voltage that is damaged internally and cannot supply the rated current.

 

And with this one being from 2008, I could easily beieve it has collapsed internally.  I will get a new one first.  What makes do any of you recommend these days?

 

Xman:

3 minutes ago, xman said:

Possibly a bad voltage regulator.

 

Anyway charging the battery regularly will stop it deteriorating so quickly. Could be you are running around on 60% charge average and a standard battery will sulphate over time.

 

Just shows you what you do not know.  I always thought that a battery would be fully charged by the car.  Silly question, but why doesn't it?

[marcusmarcus]

First, get your battery checked, that's the cheapest part, probably free. It's most likely due for a replacement. As for the brand, the thing I hear most often is choose the one with the longest warranty (usually they give 2 years, some 3 like mine).  That's all that matters really. And just make sure the capacity is at least same as the original one, you can go a bit higher if you think you need it and if the battery will fit in the holder. Also, buy from someplace that sell a lot of them so you have a better chance of landing a new one. If there's a date of manufacture, be sure to check it, in no way buy one older than 6 months, ideal would be not older than 1 month.

 

As for the starter... For some reason I was sure my car had a Valeo starter, as this problem where they weaken over time and don't have enough revolutions is well known for Valeo starters. And it's a bit harder to have them replaced since spare parts for them aren't as available as for Bosch. But yeah, a new Valeo starter is 2.0 kW. I chose to replace it with a Bosch one, cause Bosch is known for it's quality (I didn't know they moved the production to Hungary yet) and spare parts are widely available and they are a bit easier to repair if needed. I contacted Bosch, they told me that they only have 1.7 kW one for my car (2.0 they have only for vehicles with automatic transmission, mine is 5-speed manual). However, they assured me it woudn't affect the warm start, despite it being a lower power. Little did I know I actually have a Bosch starter, exactly the same as the one I replaced it with. 

 

Check which one you have. And my best advice is to replace it with the same one. If you have Valeo, don't downgrade from 2.0 to 1.7 kW. If you have Bosch, choose either, just make sure they fit according to OE number. But buy Valeo or Bosch, don't even look at other brands, a mechanic told me once for VAG cars, only those two, never any other.

And if you plan to keep your car for more than 3 years, go with a new one, not remanufactured. I bought a new one, I didn't have to send the old one to exchange it, so now I'm going to service it and sell it online. If I manage to sell it, I'll have about the same amount of money as I would have it I bought a remanufactured one, paid for shipping to return it to Autodoc. This way I have a new one for the price of remanufactured one.

 

[Tilt]

Bosch S5008 size 096 77Ah  780CCA......5 year warranty.

 

Starting a diesel car uses a lot of battery power and especially in colder weather and also battery will deteriorate very fast in freezing weather if it only has a low charge amount.........

If you start yours 20 times a day.............

[xman]

52 minutes ago, Coinneach said:

 

Xman:

 

Just shows you what you do not know.  I always thought that a battery would be fully charged by the car.  Silly question, but why doesn't it?

 

It takes a long time to charge a lead acid battery fully. Hours or more. Not much of a problem if its already 90% charged, but if its got low it will take ages, and at only 13.5 volts it can easily take over 24 hours.

 

At 14.3 volts charging is a lot quicker but still hours for a heavily discharged battery, the charging is limited by the chemistry of lead acid, so no comments about alternators pushing 100 amps in the battery, it doesn't happen even at 14.3 volts.

 

Too technical to explain the detail of lead acid chemistry and charging further than that....

[Guest]

If you can arrange a jump start to see if that eliminates the problem.

 

You should be able to tell immediately if you've been long suffering with a tired battery as it should start with enthusiasm in contrast.

[Tilt]

If the jump leads are quality and large enough to allow the power to flow freely between the batteries..........

 

Cheapo jump leads need not apply, Lol.

[murkey]

Hi, I’m new here but hopefully have a cure for your starting problem.

I had this on my A3 1.9 tdi, starts fine when cold but lumpy/jumpy and sometimes several try’s when hot, just bought a Octavia MK2 1.9 tdi and it done the same, both times a brand new battery worked wonders.

Apparently the problem is the starter needs to spin at a certain speed when hot to start the engine, if it’s a bit to slow  then you get the kind of half start where it’s all lumpy and it feels like the engine is blowing up!

This is why the starter is often blamed as effectively it is the starter causing the issue but really it’s the battery not giving it enough oomph in the first place.

 

Hope you get it sorted..

[Coinneach]

Hi, update on the problem.  I decided to go down the logical elimination route, so ordered a new battery 75ah with 640a cranking which is more than the one on it which is 61ah with 520a or thereabouts.  Old battery is original Varta, so now 11 years old so needed to be replaced anyway.  Ordered online, guaranteed delivery 24-72 hours, still not here a week later!

 

Today I finally managed to get a video of the car starting when hot.  The 4 starts were one after the other, but I will have to post it in two bits due to the size limit.  Start 3 (video 2) is the nearest to how bad it can get, and it can get a lot worse than that.  But just maybe somebody may think "I know what that is"!  Which is more than my garage does.

 

Murkey, I just hope you are right that it is the battery.  I will post here after the new battery is fitted and tried.

[Coinneach]

and this is video 2

 

Unfortunately the system will not allow me to post more than 10mb total.  Is that for ever?  and ever? That's annoying, video 2 was better than video 1.  Can I change it?

[murkey]

7 minutes ago, Coinneach said:

Hi, update on the problem.  I decided to go down the logical elimination route, so ordered a new battery 75ah with 640a cranking which is more than the one on it which is 61ah with 520a or thereabouts.  Old battery is original Varta, so now 11 years old so needed to be replaced anyway.  Ordered online, guaranteed delivery 24-72 hours, still not here a week later!

 

Today I finally managed to get a video of the car starting when hot.  The 4 starts were one after the other, but I will have to post it in two bits due to the size limit.  Start 3 (video 2) is the nearest to how bad it can get, and it can get a lot worse than that.  But just maybe somebody may think "I know what that is"!  Which is more than my garage does.

 

Murkey, I just hope you are right that it is the battery.  I will post here after the new battery is fitted and tried.

Starting problem part 1.wmv

 

I bought my battery from eurocarparts, they always have discount codes which worked out quite reasonable and was in stock locally.

I also upgraded to the bigger Ah and no problems with plenty of cranking power, the Varta is an original battery and was over ten years old on both my 1.9’s so def needed replacing, thing is if it’s got low cranking amps now in the summer come the winter it will die so best replace it.

Im sure a bigger new battery will solve your problems.

Edited 21 July, 2019 by murkey

[Coinneach]

2 minutes ago, murkey said:

 

I bought my battery from eurocarparts, they always have discount codes which worked out quite reasonable and was in stock locally.

I also upgraded to the bigger Ah and no problems with plenty of cranking power, the Varta is an original battery and was over ten years old on both my 1.9’s so def needed replacing, thing is if it’s got low cranking amps now in the summer come the winter it will die so best replace it.

Im sure a bigger new battery will solve your problems.

Not sure where you are, UK or europe but here in Spain batteries are not the cheapest in the stores and motor part places, so opted to buy online, seemed like a good idea at the time!!