4 hours ago, roottoot said:

So the car modifying parts market globally is huge, the sales of wheel spacers is huge and when the EU succeed in having cars in all member countries required to be to factory spec that will be sometime far in the future.  (Even the strict countries have modified vehicles on their roads.)

 

The UK might eventually get to that day as well.   'They' have talked about it long enough.

  For now it will be just carry on as you are and the same old same old discussion on wheel spacers that has been happening since before many asking were born. 

 

Legislation is always going to change.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/499135-dft-regulatory-review-consultation-on-modernising-vehicle-standards

 

The global cigarette market is pretty big too, but I'm not sure it's a good justification for smoking cigarettes!

I'm not sure why you think "the EU" wants all cars to be factory spec, when in the same sentence, you go on to say that even the strictest country in the EU permits modification?  I don't have a problem with modification as long as it doesn't compromise safety or environmental performance.  I think that's probably the EU position too?  Certainly in Germany, they have far stricter requirements on mods than we do, but all they really ask, is that the mods still meet safety and legal requirements.  Is that really such a bad thing?  If I had to choose between German speed limits and having to make sure your car was up to scratch, or British speed limits and a more laissez-faire approach to vehicle modification, I think I know which I'd prefer.

And yes, I was aware of that consultation.  In fact, I put in a response.

 

I said (even the strict countries have modified vehicles on their roads.)  I did not go on to say 'even the strictest country in the EU permits modifications.'

That is what you typed.

 

2012 was when the Daily Fail and the forums went big on the EU or Commissioners cunning stunts.

Those included the idea that only certain people could service and maintain vehicles.

Well that would have meant many UK Main Dealers would have not been able to with their staffs skill levels. 

Then even more recently the idea that only parts endorsed or sold through vehicle manufacturers could be used to stop independent garages using cheaper aftermarket parts.

 

The countries strict on customising and modifying are still having vehicles entering and driving on their roads which are from other countries, if you can understand that. 

The UK MOT's are so lax that they are unreal and the SVA & IVA was and is not exactly that difficult to get vehicles through.

 

Safety is great, it is wonderful, pity so many cars at 3 years old that had nothing but a PDI after leaving the factory fail their first mot.

Actually ones that have FMDSH can even fail their first MOT if not being serviced at a Main Dealers that have just done a Service. 

Many have had mis-aligned lights from the build.

Most common fail being lights or indicators and the 2nd most common is suspension. 

 

The UK Government were flying a kite then held a consultation a few years back about the first MOT at 4 years and are now talking about 2 years between to help those out that are short of money. 

http://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/extending-first-mot-date-to-4-years

That would be all the longer for cars with suspension, brake, steering and light faults that never get a service or a crap service to be on the road before that was picked up on.

 

PS,

The smoking thing is because so many people including governments, politicians & backers have investments in that, 

like the Ex UK Chancellor of the Exchequer that was the Deputy Chairman of BAT. (Kenneth Clarke)

So now the smart money including the tobacco companies are also vaping companies.

Edited 18 May, 20224 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

 

I said (even the strict countries have modified vehicles on their roads.)  I did not go on to say 'even the strictest country in the EU permits modifications.'

That is what you typed.

 

2012 was when the Daily Fail and the forums went big on the EU or Commissioners cunning stunts.

Those included the idea that only certain people could service and maintain vehicles.

Well that would have meant many UK Main Dealers would have not been able to with their staffs skill levels. 

Then even more recently the idea that only parts endorsed or sold through vehicle manufacturers could be used to stop independent garages using cheaper aftermarket parts.

 

The countries strict on customising and modifying are still having vehicles entering and driving on their roads which are from other countries, if you can understand that. 

The UK MOT's are so lax that they are unreal and the SVA & IVA was and is not exactly that difficult to get vehicles through.

 

Safety is great, it is wonderful, pity so many cars at 3 years old that had nothing but a PDI after leaving the factory fail their first mot.

Actually ones that have FMDSH can even fail their first MOT if not being serviced at a Main Dealers that have just done a Service. 

Many have had mis-aligned lights from the build.

Most common fail being lights or indicators and the 2nd most common is suspension. 

 

The UK Government were flying a kite then held a consultation a few years back about the first MOT at 4 years and are now talking about 2 years between to help those out that are short of money. 

http://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/extending-first-mot-date-to-4-years

That would be all the longer for cars with suspension, brake, steering and light faults that never get a service or a crap service to be on the road before that was picked up on.

 

PS,

The smoking thing is because so many people including governments, politicians & backers have investments in that, 

like the Ex UK Chancellor of the Exchequer that was the Deputy Chairman of BAT. (Kenneth Clarke)

So now the smart money including the tobacco companies are also vaping companies.

 

OK, if you think it makes a difference "strict" / "strictest" / whatever...🙄  I took the worst case from "strict" (i.e. "strictest" for my argument because by definition, if I talk about the strictest, then all the others must be less strict than that).

Re. Daily Mail and EU:  funny enough, I've sat in plenty of EU meetings, where "the EU" (i.e the Commission in this case) has taken the absolute OPPOSITE stance to what you describe!  The Commission is very much on the side of the consumer in situations like this.  When ACEA (the major car manufacturers' EU trade association and the likes of FIGIEFA or the Independent Garage Association are knocking lumps out of each other at these meetings, it's not ACEA whose side the COmmission comes donw on!  Back in the '90s it was the EU Commission that introduced the block exemption laws and brought down the cost of cars sold by EU manufacturers in this country.  It was the EU Commission that forced the "Access to the Repair and Maintenance Information" requirements on the major manufacturers.  If it wasn't for the Commission, those guys would have stitched-up independent garages and DIYers like the proverbial kipper!

Yes, the countries with strict rules (and indeed, the countries without strict rules) have vehicles from other countries crossing their borders.  I can, indeed, understand that.  And your point is WHAT, precisely?  Are you trying to argue that countries that have strict requirements should not do so, in case it in some way offends motorists from countries that have less strict requirements?  Or are you, perhaps, trying to make the argument that it is pointless having strict requirements because all that good work will be undone by vehicles meeting lesser requirements when they cross the border?  I wonder if you understand the actual numbers involved?

We can agree on the UK MOT being too lax.  SVA is long-dead and IVA is indeed relatively lax, but it is intended to be the "bottom rung" of the approval scheme ladder.  Personally, when I look back at the weeping and grinding of teeth that went on in the kit car industry when SVA was first introduced, I think it did a pretty good job of getting (say) the worst 20% of kit cars and specials off the road.

I'm afraid I don't understand your "safety is great" argument at all.  About 13% of 3 year old cars fail their first MOT - which isn't that many, considering some can do up to 50,000 miles a year.  I'd be interested in any evidence you can supply about headlights being misaligned at first build though.  I could pass that on to the Vehicle Certification Agency.  Do you have any?  And yes, I'd be against  extending the MOT interval to 2 years, although I'd be willing to look at the idea of a tougher one every other year.  Howevr, I still don't understand what point you're trying to make, in the context of what we're discussing?

I think you missed the point on the smoking analogy.  The point I was trying to make, was that just because (like wheel spacers) a lot of them are sold, doesn't mean they're necessarily a good thing!

Your figure will be right on the first MOT,   13% of even 1.5 million new cars for each year is lots. more when it is 2 million or more new cars registered in the UK each year.

 

The point is that you do not know how long headlights are misaligned and annoying other road users, in the first week as you might spot with some very new cars or just before three years is up, as nobody is checking them unless maybe a drivers thinks the lights are sh!te and gets them checked,

The headlights are not checked at a PDI or at a service so when they go badly set is anyone's guess.

 

The context is that someone interested in modding a car and fitting spacers might be driving a car they think more about than lots of the ones driving about with a driver with no idea about a bearing on the way out.

Even people that trust to garages for their car to be checked and think that an oil and filter service with a look see means their cars are safe until the next time it goes in or that between MOT's that is all that is required. 

Plenty drive cars between MOT's car they know need stuff changing / removing for the MOT, change the reg plates, change the lights. 

 

I never pointed out that lots of spacers are sold so that was a good thing,

just that there is quite an industry globally and there are taxes and duties and it is treasuries that collect those.

 

The day that Governments & their Agencies crack down on the manufacturing in their countries and the exporting & selling of questionable stuff might come one day.

Until then bulb makers and brake pad makers and bull bar makers might just continue to put 'For offroad use' on stuff.

Edited 18 May, 20224 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

Your figure will be right on the first MOT,   13% of even 1.5 million new cars for each year is lots. more when it is 2 million or more new cars registered in the UK each year.

 

The point is that you do not know how long headlights are misaligned and annoying other road users, in the first week as you might spot with some very new cars or just before three years is up, as nobody is checking them unless maybe a drivers thinks the lights are sh!te and gets them checked,

The headlights are not checked at a PDI or at a service so when they go badly set is anyone's guess.

 

The context is that someone interested in modding a car and fitting spacers might be driving a car they think more about than lots of the ones driving about with a driver with no idea about a bearing on the way out.

Even people that trust to garages for their car to be checked and think that an oil and filter service with a look see means their cars are safe until the next time it goes in or that between MOT's that is all that is required. 

Plenty drive cars between MOT's car they know need stuff changing / removing for the MOT, change the reg plates, change the lights. 

 

I never pointed out that lots of spacers are sold so that was a good thing,

just that there is quite an industry globally and there are taxes and duties and it is treasuries that collect those.

 

The day that Governments & their Agencies crack down on the manufacturing in their countries and the exporting & selling of questionable stuff might come one day.

Until then bulb makers and brake pad makers and bull bar makers might just continue to put 'For offroad use' on stuff.

Yes, it's a lot of cars, but of those, you need to weed out the ones that have failed on wear-and-tear issues (like tyres or brake linings) that are nothing to do with how the vehicle left the factory and are nothing to do with deliberate modifications from factory spec (which will be virtually all of them)!

OK, so you don't have any actual hard evidence that they leave the factory with the headlights misaligned?  I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it's pretty unlikely.  It's a legal requirement and I know our type approval authority is all over us, wanting to check audit trails for lights being re-aligned on vehicles where our work affects the alignment.

Just because someone is "interested" in their car, doesn't necessarily mean they're aware of all the potential pitfalls of any modifications they might have made to it. Looking back at my misspent youth and the things I did to cars back in the day, I shudder, at my blissful ignorance of the potential dangers of some of the mods I made!  People who modify cars don't always know as much about them as the engineers who designed them.  (In fact, in my experience, they very rarely do)!  People who don't modify their cars but neglect them, pose a different set of problems.

OK, you seemed to be using the fact that lots of car mods get sold, to justify them as not being a potential danger.  If that's not what you meant, what DID you mean?  (Oh, and I think there's a fair mount of tax and duty raised by the tobacco industry too, by the way...).

In your last couple of lines, you seem to be making the case for banning all these aftermarket mods?   If so, does it include wheel spacers?

I am not using anything to justify anything.  I am just discussing how things are.

Years of people using spacers including members on here and they will know if they had issues and the early demise of bearings.

There are plenty that have lowering springs fitted and fail to be sure the alignment is good and then ask about tyre wear.

Some never bother checking how the lights are after lowering their car.

Then there are plenty with uneven tyre wear and sawtoothing and a factory standard car. (Superbs)

 

Plenty 'my car is pulling left' or my car is pulling right and then the Dealerships can not deal with that, the staff blame the Dunlop Sport Maxx or Continental tyres and Skoda UK approve fitting Pirelli Zero Nero and thats it sorted as far as they are concerned.  The issue no longer as apparent or noticeable with the tyres with the stonger sidewalls when first fitted.

Funnily some that are not satisfied with that go to a place that knows their arse from elbow and get the engineering / hardware sorted out. 

 

Vorsprung durch technik. 

Cars leave the production line and can have issues and it goes on right to this day with VW Groups Software problems, they are often more interested in getting the cars First Registered and money coming in and fix failing later.

Lane Assist issues, KPH / MPH, SOS.

 

 'We do not know much about the engineers that are working for VW Group that deal with issues that are reported to the dealerships'.

This issue starting over a decade ago when people were getting their cars new and ex demonstrators with some Fabia Monte Carlo & vRS on 17" wheels.  It was the same on some Polo, A1 & Ibiza's. 

 Under 3,000 vRS sold in the UK and 6,000 Monte Carlo with the 205/40 R 17 Tyres from 4 different manufacturers.

*Only some were ones with the issue and tyres were not at fault.*

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/319988-monte-carlo-pulling-left-is-this-right

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/325807-newbie-monte-carlo-pulling-left

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/394020-skoda-fabia-vrsmonte-drift-pulling-to-the-left

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/496942-skoda-fabia-is-pulling-left-shoulder-pain-started

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/425398-fabia-ii-2014-wanders-to-the-nearside

Dangerously is sometimes used by drivers to describe what some Dealership staff describe as normal. 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/329887-new-car-pulling-to-the-left

 

Edited 19 May, 20224 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

I am not using anything to justify anything.  I am just discussing how things are.

Years of people using spacers including members on here and they will know if they had issues and the early demise of bearings.

There are plenty that have lowering springs fitted and fail to be sure the alignment is good and then ask about tyre wear.

Some never bother checking how the lights are after lowering their car.

Then there are plenty with uneven tyre wear and sawtoothing and a factory standard car. (Superbs)

 

Plenty 'my car is pulling left' or my car is pulling right and then the Dealerships can not deal with that, the staff blame the Dunlop Sport Maxx or Continental tyres and Skoda UK approve fitting Pirelli Zero Nero and thats it sorted as far as they are concerned.  The issue no longer as apparent or noticeable with the tyres with the stonger sidewalls when first fitted.

Funnily some that are not satisfied with that go to a place that knows their arse from elbow and get the engineering / hardware sorted out. 

 

Vorsprung durch technik. 

Cars leave the production line and can have issues and it goes on right to this day with VW Groups Software problems, they are often more interested in getting the cars First Registered and money coming in and fix failing later.

Lane Assist issues, KPH / MPH, SOS.

 

 'We do not know much about the engineers that are working for VW Group that deal with issues that are reported to the dealerships'.

This issue starting over a decade ago when people were getting their cars new and ex demonstrators with some Fabia Monte Carlo & vRS on 17" wheels.  It was the same on some Polo, A1 & Ibiza's. 

 Under 3,000 vRS sold in the UK and 6,000 Monte Carlo with the 205/40 R 17 Tyres from 4 different manufacturers.

*Only some were ones with the issue and tyres were not at fault.*

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/319988-monte-carlo-pulling-left-is-this-right

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/325807-newbie-monte-carlo-pulling-left

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/394020-skoda-fabia-vrsmonte-drift-pulling-to-the-left

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/496942-skoda-fabia-is-pulling-left-shoulder-pain-started

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/425398-fabia-ii-2014-wanders-to-the-nearside

Dangerously is sometimes used by drivers to describe what some Dealership staff describe as normal. 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/329887-new-car-pulling-to-the-left

 

But discussing anything with anyone who doesn't have a position (or whose position appears to change with every post) is a bit like nailing jelly to a wall!

 

First paragraph: - given that the Kodiaq has only been out since 2017, that's hardly surprising, is it?!  On a modern car, you wouldn't expect to touch a wheel bearing for 100,000 miles / 10 years!  On the rest, I can broadly agree.

Second paragraph:  The competence (or otherwise) of dealers wasn't part of this discussion, but I've only experienced two dealers - the one we bought the car from (who were pretty clueless), and another one who did a routine service (as far as I can tell, correctly).

Third paragraph:  We were talking about whether headlights were set correctly at end-of-line.  Now you seem to be talking about other design / manufacturing faults - of which I'm sure there are plenty, but such problems are not unique to Skoda (or indeed any manufacturer).  Yes of course they're more interested in getting your money off you!  But then, so is just about any other large company.  I'd suggest that the pros and cons of  free market capitalism are best left to another thread?

Last paragraph:  All very interesting, I'm sure, but not really what we were talking about!

13 hours ago, roottoot said:

 

2012 was when the Daily Fail and the forums went big on the EU or Commissioners cunning stunts.

Those included the idea that only certain people could service and maintain vehicles.

Well that would have meant many UK Main Dealers would have not been able to with their staffs skill levels. 

Then even more recently the idea that only parts endorsed or sold through vehicle manufacturers could be used to stop independent garages using cheaper aftermarket parts.

 

This reminds me that we used to be able to perform electrical work at home, but now most (there are probably exceptions, I don't know all the details) domestic electrical work needs to be signed off by NICEIC certified electricians. I'm old enough to remember when new electric devices didn't come with a plug and you'd have to buy one or try and get it included with the product.

Since "The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994" electrical devices have come with plugs pre-fitted.

 

I can imagine a time when only "certified" mechanics will be able to work on cars, but hopefully it won't be in the near future.

Maybe they'll slip in the legislation as the number of electric cars increases? I dunno.

2 minutes ago, EnterName said:

This reminds me that we used to be able to perform electrical work at home, but now most (there are probably exceptions, I don't know all the details) domestic electrical work needs to be signed off by NICEIC certified electricians. I'm old enough to remember when new electric devices didn't come with a plug and you'd have to buy one or try and get it included with the product.

Since "The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994" electrical devices have come with plugs pre-fitted.

 

I can imagine a time when only "certified" mechanics will be able to work on cars, but hopefully it won't be in the near future.

Maybe they'll slip in the legislation as the number of electric cars increases? I dunno.

I think the insurance companies are more likely to become the limiting factor than the legislators.  Already, some are refusing payouts on things like flooding where DIY plumbing has been carried out.

On 19/05/2022 at 09:15, Avocet said:

I think the insurance companies are more likely to become the limiting factor than the legislators.  Already, some are refusing payouts on things like flooding where DIY plumbing has been carried out.

I hadn't considered that, but it's an excellent point. I have a (perhaps cynical) suspicion that the decision to stop people working on their cars at home has already been made, but how to mainstream this idea has not yet been determined.

The insurance angle is probably the easiest way to achieve this.