As the title says really. I've used ODB Eleven to log the requested vs actual boost levels, and most of the time I'm seeing boost pressures of more than what is being requested. Just wondering if this is normal?

For example, the most boost the ECU asks for is 2.6 bar, which is about 1.6 above atmospheric pressure, but it's actually detecting 2.777 bar (1.7) of boost, that's almost 1.8 bar!

I've attached the CSV file with all the data in it. Can anyone that knows what they're talking about have a look for me?

 

OBDeleven chart.csv

Edited 11 December, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

If the turbo was over boosting then the ECU would pick up on it and log a fault code.

I did another data log, this time in third gear. Boost levels look much better. The ECU requests 2.6 bar and gets a max of 2.669 bar before the ECU opens the wastegate.

Can’t comment on the figures as I don’t know but didn’t you say originally that it was only mapped for 1.4bar as apparently “1.6bar blows turbos” right before the map blew your turbo...?!

37 minutes ago, SkudMissile21 said:

Can’t comment on the figures as I don’t know but didn’t you say originally that it was only mapped for 1.4bar as apparently “1.6bar blows turbos” right before the map blew your turbo...?!

 

Most stage 1 tunes on these engines are 1.6 bar, which is what mine was mapped to. It just looks like my turbo couldn't handle it and decided to eat itself. 1.4 bar is stock boost pressure I think. 

My understanding is;

 

Stock = 1.4 bar

Stage 1 = 1.6 bar

Stage 2 = 1.8 bar
Stage 3 = 2.0 bar +

Although actual boost can vary, some stage 2 maps only use 1.7 bar of boost and still achieve just under 400bhp.

The turbo I have now can handle up to a mild stage 3 tune and around 420bhp, but I'm not going anywhere near that figure.

Edited 11 December, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

Oh yes I stand corrected, in your original thread you did indeed say it was 1.6bar instead of 1.8bar though that kind of indicated your mapper didn’t know what he was talking about since everyone else has said all other stage 1’s are 1.6bar as well.

still don’t think I’d be trusting his map at all even with the upgraded turbo but glad to hear you’ve got it back on the road and running ok!

think I’ll be sticking with a revo if I ever do mine.

Stock is 1.2bar 

Did you let off the throttle just before 6K rpm?  It's better to keep it floored till you switch to next gear when logging.

On the graph you show I don't see something weird, although logging 4th gear is more representative of what's going on, 1.77bar sounds too much, would be interesting to see timing also.

For a (light) comparison, here's a log I actually did tonight before even reading your post (funny huh?) from 2500 rpm in 4th gear all the way to 6700 into 5th:




I floor it at around 2800 rpm and at 3000 rpm it's  hit full boost of 1.57-1.6bar which it maintains steadily till 5800 RPM where it starts to slowly taper it down to 1.44 bar right before shifting up.

What I see in mine is that in general it follows specified pressure with nearly 100% accuracy, and it only drops slightly below that in the final rpm range, but not over-boosting. The only case of going above specified is right when spooling up but that's hitting 1.57 from 1,52 specified so not an issue really.

Try to get a log of 4th gear from down low all the way to 5th as it'll be a more fair comparison. And of-course, ask your tuner what he thinks of your logs, you've paid quite some money so far to get it sorted and Internet is can only help so much.




 

7 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Stock is 1.2bar 

Did you let off the throttle just before 6K rpm?  It's better to keep it floored till you switch to next gear when logging.

On the graph you show I don't see something weird, although logging 4th gear is more representative of what's going on, 1.77bar sounds too much, would be interesting to see timing also.

For a (light) comparison, here's a log I actually did tonight before even reading your post (funny huh?) from 2500 rpm in 4th gear all the way to 6700 into 5th:




I floor it at around 2800 rpm and at 3000 rpm it's  hit full boost of 1.57-1.6bar which it maintains steadily till 5800 RPM where it starts to slowly taper it down to 1.44 bar right before shifting up.

What I see in mine is that in general it follows specified pressure with nearly 100% accuracy, and it only drops slightly below that in the final rpm range, but not over-boosting. The only case of going above specified is right when spooling up but that's hitting 1.57 from 1,52 specified so not an issue really.

Try to get a log of 4th gear from down low all the way to 5th as it'll be a more fair comparison. And of-course, ask your tuner what he thinks of your logs, you've paid quite some money so far to get it sorted and Internet is can only help so much.




 

Thanks for that, really helpful. At some point today I'll do a log and grab the same values you're showing in your chart, and that will give us something to compare.

Here's my chart from the morning, 4th gear.

 

Here's a link to the data as well which included timing for all four cylinders and air intake temperature too.

 

https://datazap.me/u/shaunsheppard/log-1607769415?log=0&data=6-7-8&zoom=0-23

Word of caution: going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out logs can sometimes get you more confused than you were before, ideally this is something only your tuner should worry about. What are you logging for? Boost kept in control? TIming? EGT?

I openend the full datazap and took a look, you reallyneed to log "Ignition timing adjustment cylinder 1" as that parameter shows the actual requested timing, the 4 parameters you have above are only the retardation. Ideally retardation should be 0 on all cylinders all the time with very few exceptions. (On mine it's 0 during the whole pull).

On yours, the ECU is detecting something it doesn't like and reduces the timing requested from the map between 4500-6000 (circled in red):




It could be that the timing is too aggressive or temps or AFR get too high, can be many things but without seeing what the timing is we can't say. in the end that's how the map is.

There's a slight over-boost at some points (1.68bar from 1.60bar requested) and in general the ECU seems to have a little bit of a hard time controlling the boost to where it should be (according to the map).

To me it's not that bad to worry about, it's probably just not ideal. But again, this is only my "enthusiast"'s analysis.
  

Edited 12 December, 20205 yr by newbie69

If you still don’t trust it, then just have it removed and get a revo agent to install theirs Instead. Then drive away at it and forget about logging and checking parameters or you’ll have a nervous breakdown. 

On 11/12/2020 at 15:31, SkudMissile21 said:

Oh yes I stand corrected, in your original thread you did indeed say it was 1.6bar instead of 1.8bar though that kind of indicated your mapper didn’t know what he was talking about since everyone else has said all other stage 1’s are 1.6bar as well.

still don’t think I’d be trusting his map at all even with the upgraded turbo but glad to hear you’ve got it back on the road and running ok!

think I’ll be sticking with a revo if I ever do mine.

 Week 1 with Revo Stage one....

Very happy.

Have to say the 2.6bar scared and confused me, until I checked and and noticed the whole stupid thing of including the 1bar of atmospheric was included... 

 

Seat of pants test is much improved in the mid range.

On private, wet road.... hit 0-100km in 6.0 and 400m (1/4 mile) of 13.7.

Be interested to see what it's like on a nice dry track.

2 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Word of caution: going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out logs can sometimes get you more confused than you were before, ideally this is something only your tuner should worry about. What are you logging for? Boost kept in control? TIming? EGT?

I openend the full datazap and took a look, you reallyneed to log "Ignition timing adjustment cylinder 1" as that parameter shows the actual requested timing, the 4 parameters you have above are only the retardation. Ideally retardation should be 0 on all cylinders all the time with very few exceptions. (On mine it's 0 during the whole pull).

On yours, the ECU is detecting something it doesn't like and reduces the timing requested from the map between 4500-6000 (circled in red):




It could be that the timing is too aggressive or temps or AFR get too high, can be many things but without seeing what the timing is we can't say. in the end that's how the map is.

There's a slight over-boost at some points (1.68bar from 1.60bar requested) and in general the ECU seems to have a little bit of a hard time controlling the boost to where it should be (according to the map).

To me it's not that bad to worry about, it's probably just not ideal. But again, this is only my "enthusiast"'s analysis.
  

I'll log the missing data tomorrow. Is there a way to log AFR?

I don't know if it matters, but the car is mapped for 95 ron, and I'm currently running shell v-power. I don't know if that would cause the ECU to retard timing?

At the minute I'm trying to get as much information about the car/ecu/map as possible so that in the new I can query the tuner if I need to and ask him to make necessary adjustments if they're needed.

15 hours ago, Roberto280 said:

On private, wet road.... hit 0-100km in 6.0 and 400m (1/4 mile) of 13.7.

Be interested to see what it's like on a nice dry track.

I’ve logged mine (standard not remapped) using an obd2 dongle and shift OBD app on my phone at 5.2secs 0-60 and 13.8 1/4 mile but that was in the dry. 
I think most people expect below 5 for 0-60 once you have a stage 1.

sorry for going a bit off topic anyway!

18 hours ago, UndertheRadar said:

If you still don’t trust it, then just have it removed and get a revo agent to install theirs Instead. Then drive away at it and forget about logging and checking parameters or you’ll have a nervous breakdown. 

Another remap is going to cost £500-700. Spending a little bit of time logging and analysing the current map, while a bit of a pain initially, will save me money if I can't find anything particularly wrong with the map itself.

 

There's a tuner that I've used in the past who does live remaps, he's highly regarded but doesn't tune VAG stuff. I dropped him an email last week asking if he'd be able to look at the map for me, or recommend someone else who could do it. He's given me the name of a specialist I can use who is very good and knows his stuff when it comes to VAG. It just so happens that it's the same specialist that I've used for the remap and the turbo. So far I've spoke to 4 tuners in the region, and only one of them (a direct competitor who is more expensive) has come back with any negative comments. I really do think I was just unlucky, but rather than just leave it at that, I'm just trying to cover all based and make sure the map isn't doing anything it shouldn't be.

Edited 13 December, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

21 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Word of caution: going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out logs can sometimes get you more confused than you were before, ideally this is something only your tuner should worry about. What are you logging for? Boost kept in control? TIming? EGT?

I openend the full datazap and took a look, you reallyneed to log "Ignition timing adjustment cylinder 1" as that parameter shows the actual requested timing, the 4 parameters you have above are only the retardation. Ideally retardation should be 0 on all cylinders all the time with very few exceptions. (On mine it's 0 during the whole pull).

On yours, the ECU is detecting something it doesn't like and reduces the timing requested from the map between 4500-6000 (circled in red):




It could be that the timing is too aggressive or temps or AFR get too high, can be many things but without seeing what the timing is we can't say. in the end that's how the map is.

There's a slight over-boost at some points (1.68bar from 1.60bar requested) and in general the ECU seems to have a little bit of a hard time controlling the boost to where it should be (according to the map).

To me it's not that bad to worry about, it's probably just not ideal. But again, this is only my "enthusiast"'s analysis.
  

I tried getting more data today, but I kept losing the bluetooth connection to ODB11 so I get disconnecting. It's such a pain having to setup the log params every time, you'd think you could just reload from a previously saved chart.

Anyway. I've managed to log timing and AFR, but I forgot to add the RPM so I'm not sure how helpful this is. 

I have no idea what timing values are good or bad.

https://datazap.me/u/shaunsheppard/log-1607871497?log=0&data=1-2-3-4-5-6

Yes AFR is "current of oxygen sensor bank 1 broandband" although the value depicted is lambda, I guess you are aware of that.

Again, I will sound maybe annoying but analyzing logs is more complicated than it sounds and parameters can be inter-linked and affecting each other in a way that simply and selectively looking at some can create more worries that are justified for the occasion. Also, different conditions might show a different picture and also not all maps are set up the same way so a parameter being slightly off on one map might mean a much worse situation than when being equally off on another map, not sure if my point is clear here. Surely an AFR of 1.0 at 6K rpm or hitting 1.8bar consistently on a stock turbo is bad news no matter the map but for something less dramatic it's harder to argue it needs attention.

My personal opinion from the few logs of yours I've seen so far, it looks like the typical "less known tuner" map with aggressive timing that the ECU is not able to meet 100% and slight-overboosting, but not something I would particularly worry about. The logs are not the "cleanest" but they are not alarming either. Would I take it to another more well known tuner? Well I've done that in the past as I am bit picky if I see something which I don't like even though my tuner said its ok (and it probably could have been). But that's what you get for diggin in logs and discussing about them  

Over the years I realized I didn't have the time (or will after some point) to monitor and worry about little details in logs and then argue over them with tuners of average remaps (both offering "custom tuning" by the way which I never really saw) so I decided for this car I'd go with the name that came out at the top based on my research. Funnily, it has made the tuning aspect of it completely boring since I've all but forgotten about it after it was flashed and did a few quick health checks that came out exactly as thet were supposed to be.  On the contrary, I have probably over a hundred logs of both my previous cars where tuning wasn't the best.

Edited 13 December, 20205 yr by newbie69

15 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Yes AFR is "current of oxygen sensor bank 1 broandband" although the value depicted is lambda, I guess you are aware of that.

Again, I will sound maybe annoying but analyzing logs is more complicated than it sounds and parameters can be inter-linked and affecting each other in a way that simply and selectively looking at some can create more worries that are justified for the occasion. Also, different conditions might show a different picture and also not all maps are set up the same way so a parameter being slightly off on one map might mean a much worse situation than when being equally off on another map, not sure if my point is clear here. Surely an AFR of 1.0 at 6K rpm or hitting 1.8bar consistently on a stock turbo is bad news no matter the map but for something less dramatic it's harder to argue it needs attention.

My personal opinion from the few logs of yours I've seen so far, it looks like the typical "less known tuner" map with aggressive timing that the ECU is not able to meet 100% and slight-overboosting, but not something I would particularly worry about. The logs are not the "cleanest" but they are not alarming either. Would I take it to another more well known tuner? Well I've done that in the past as I am bit picky if I see something which I don't like even though my tuner said its ok (and it probably could have been). But that's what you get for diggin in logs and discussing about them  

Over the years I realized I didn't have the time (or will after some point) to monitor and worry about little details in logs and then argue over them with tuners of average remaps (both offering "custom tuning" by the way which I never really saw) so I decided for this car I'd go with the name that came out at the top based on my research. Funnily, it has made the tuning aspect of it completely boring since I've all but forgotten about it after it was flashed and did a few quick health checks that came out exactly as thet were supposed to be.  On the contrary, I have probably over a hundred logs of both my previous cars where tuning wasn't the best.

Thanks.

I've done one final log, this time I managed to get it without ODBEleven disconnecting. https://datazap.me/u/shaunsheppard/log-1607938451?log=0&data=1-5-6

This link includes data for;

engine speed

ignition timing adjustment cylinder 1

timing angle retardation cylinder 1

timing angle retardation cylinder 2

timing angle retardation cylinder 3

timing angle retardation cylinder 4

intake air temperature

current of oxygen sensor bank 1

exhaust gas temperature before catalytic converter

exhaust temperature 1 bank 1

charge air pressure specific value

charge air pressure actual value

 

I'm going to post this on an ECU tuning forum as well just to get some additional opinions.

 

I have completely forgot at this point, is it a 272 GPF or 280? 

3 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

I have completely forgot at this point, is it a 272 GPF or 280? 

280

Cheers. So I probably shouldn't comprare directly against my GPF stage 1 logs, especially stuff like EGT as the downpipes are different.

Still, viewed independently I think the ECU is having a hard time meeting the remap's request, in this particular log it is actually worse than the previous one I had seen.  There is consistent retardation across the entire 4500-6000 rpm range especially in cylinders 2,3 often above 3 degrees.

Do you have any supporting mods? It looks to me like the remap is quite agressive and built with the assumption some peripherals have been upgraded. You could try to ask the tuner what he thinks of these logs and whether he could dial it back a little (unless you plan on going stage 2) but as I said already, this is not an ideal way to work, questioning your tuner vs the internet expertise, at least not to my experience. They tend to get defensive and all and at some point you've had enough...

Edited 14 December, 20205 yr by newbie69

6 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

Cheers. So I probably shouldn't comprare directly against my GPF stage 1 logs, especially stuff like EGT as the downpipes are different.

Still, viewed independently I think the ECU is having a hard time meeting the remap's request, in this particular log it is actually worse than the previous one I had seen.  There is consistent retardation across the entire 4500-6000 rpm range especially in cylinders 2,3 often above 3 degrees.

Do you have any supporting mods? It looks to me like the remap is quite agressive and built with the assumption some peripherals have been upgraded. You could try to ask the tuner what he thinks of these logs and whether he could dial it back a little (unless you plan on going stage 2) but as I said already, this is not an ideal way to work, questioning your tuner vs the internet expertise, at least not to my experience. They tend to get defensive and all and at some point you've had enough...

Again, thanks.

There are no other engine mods on the car.

What I also find interesting is that when it only ran 343 on the dyno I thought it was a conservative map, but if the timing is aggressive then why isn't the car putting out more power.

Do these engines have different maps for different fuel types? I wonder if the fact the car has been tuned for 95 ron but is now running 99 ron has anything to do with it? I know some ECU's have different maps for different fuel types.

Edited 14 December, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

Just now, TheBinarySheep said:

Again, thanks.

There are no other engine mods on the car.

What I also find interesting is that when it only ran 343 on the dyno I thought it was a conservative map, but if the timing is aggressive then why isn't the car putting out more power.

Do these engines have different maps for different fuel types? I wonder if the fact the car has been tuned for 95 ron but is now running 99 ron has anything to do with it? I know some ECU's have different maps for different fuel types.

Being aggressive can have the opposite results if the ECU is making adjustments all the time for targets it cannot meet despite the very fast response times of modern ECUs.

No way you'd see such timing and retardation figures if the tune was meant for 95, and there wouldn't be any issues running 98 on it, apart from not hitting its full potential. Here it's the opposite.

I'd say send the logs to your tuner and ask about retardation, why it's constantly having to pull back timing and whether a less aggressive map is an option.
I'd be good to log some acceleration times too if you are going to get any new maps. Not so much for cross-comparing with other cars as to be precise enough you'd need a 10hz device but more like a before/after comparison for yours.

7 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

Being aggressive can have the opposite results if the ECU is making adjustments all the time for targets it cannot meet despite the very fast response times of modern ECUs.

No way you'd see such timing and retardation figures if the tune was meant for 95, and there wouldn't be any issues running 98 on it, apart from not hitting its full potential. Here it's the opposite.

I'd say send the logs to your tuner and ask about retardation, why it's constantly having to pull back timing and whether a less aggressive map is an option.
I'd be good to log some acceleration times too if you are going to get any new maps. Not so much for cross-comparing with other cars as to be precise enough you'd need a 10hz device but more like a before/after comparison for yours.

The tuner did mention that my cat was damaged by the turbo. I wonder, if the cat wasn't flow as much air as it used to, would that have any impact on the timing?

3 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

The tuner did mention that my cat was damaged by the turbo. I wonder, if the cat wasn't flow as much air as it used to, would that have any impact on the timing?

Depends what kind of damage he means. I'd imagine "damaged" means less effective filtering so less back-ressure/more flow possible which doesn't add up.