Simple truth, they can be Bl00dy expensive cars to run for many who do not have cheap home or work tariffs.

Cheaper charging might require to park the car and charge away from where they live.

Even that charging for longer on less powerful chargers might not have the cost of charging cheaper than running a petrol or diesel car.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Well said, straight from the heart and true. Of course it goes without saying that if you have off street parking and can charge at home and if an overnight charge is enough for your daily usage, then running costs will tumble dramatically. Not everyone has those, or charge ability at work. I seriously doubt that many companies are willing to accept the massive costs associated with providing charging facilities for employees cars, other than pool cars and delivery vans. 

 

What we all need is more honest posts about living with EV's in the real world for the people trapped in circumstances that do not lend themselves running an EV cheaply, to help others understand the positives and negatives so they are better able to decide which suites them better rather than ending up like Taycan man, always moaning about them. 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Simple truth, they can be Bl00dy expensive cars to run for many who do not have cheap home or work tariffs.   Cheaper charging might require to park the car and charge away from where they live.   Even that charging for longer on less powerful chargers might not have the cost of charging cheaper than running a petrol or diesel car.

 

I echo what Mr annoying voice says about the Zoe, at least the ZE50 with its 52 kWh, 55 kWh actual battery size.   If I hammered it on the motorway in the depths of winter I might get as low as about 160 miles before the turtle appears on the digital dash.   But I do not hammer it, just cruise along at an indicated 60 ish and as seen a couple of days ago I do 245 miles to Liverpool and back without charging.  Yes arrive back in Worcester with only 3 % but charge it up to 70 % overnight, for the princely sum of about £3 and it will get used for my next journey to Liverpool, London or Manchester after a top off charge the evening before to take it to 100% charge cost another pound or round about to be ready for those 210-240 mile round trips.

If the temperature was -5C, -10C or -20C in the morning I might ask to borrow my son's Clio etech hybrid with all the waste engine heat being used to keep me toastie even though with a 400% or so efficient heat pump in the Scenic and Zoe the energy usage the heating power consumption rarely seems to get up to even 1kWh but in a 5 hour drive that would be 10% of the battery barring I will get back a few kWh from my regen which usually seems to cover what I might use for heating.

 

I sometimes think I should have gone for the 370 mile WLTP European Car of the Year version with the 90 kWh battery but hey ho, Renault would not take back the Zoe as it was so much in negative equity but that seems to be turning around as I think it has actually gained a £k or two since summer time, ironic when we are always told that EV are best between late spring and early autumn.  Perhaps the upcoming hike in VED and the continual news that EVs are generally cheaper to run with energy costs, servicing and VED is filtering through to the general public psyche ?

 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by lol-lol

Those with no children, partner or friends to borrow a car from or money to hire an ICE vehicle might just have to make do travelling with what they have, parked out on the street as they have no off street parking.

If -20*oC the traffic might be moving pretty slow or not moving.

  Many a frozen up windscreen / washer liquid.  Mostly that will be EV,s with frozen washer fluid. 

2 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Those with no children, partner or friends to borrow a car from or money to hire an ICE vehicle might just have to make do travelling with what they have, parked out on the street as they have no off street parking.

If -20*oC the traffic might be moving pretty slow or not moving.

  Many a frozen up windscreen / washer liquid.  Mostly that will be EV,s with frozen washer fluid. 

 

Good reminder that winter is arriving now with sub zero temps and freezing conditions.

 

An area EVs have brought which I heard only cars like Rolls Royces had which is to be warmer up with clear windscreens and side windows as most EVs talk to smart phones and can device themselves ready for the off time. The full hybrid Clio does not have prewarming like the Scenic and Zoe does sadly.

 

Must start using the neat screen wash just in case we have the -20c we had in the last decade, even EVs need screenwash even if the do not need engine cooling fluid. Lithium does like temperatures well below 273 k so let me hope to see some of these other battery chemistry ie sodium etc which is less temperature sensitive. I always get my overnight charge to finish as late as possible so the traction battery is as warm as possible at journey offset.

 

 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by lol-lol

-20*oC or even lower Winter Screen wash really is not much cope even at -12*oC ambient.  Even if it comes out the nozzles it freezes on the screen and leaves you seeing nothing.

Most likely to freeze in the pipes under the bonnet without a heat source under it.

@3*oC here now.

Damp traps in the car and plugged in ready for pre-heating later tonight or tomorrow. 

 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

 

Re, Charge Place Scotland.

What is the story as far as Scotland and chargers 8 kW or more around Scotland with chargers that only can start with a RFID card or the App? 

 

 

ChargePlace-Scotland-owner-guidance-V510.24.pdf

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Cannot see how CPS are going to be exempt but Tesla will be because they can decide to make theirs Tesla only.

 

I don't think there are any other manufacturers who can claim that apart from chargers sited at Car dealerships.

 

Maybe a stay of execution will be put in place in the next week? and the rules will be changed to "new installations" but they have had 1 years notice already.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance/public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance

 

 

I wonder if they could install a payment machine for use of the spaces and charge a rate per hour with "free vend" but it would be open to abuse?

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

3 hours ago, Ootohere said:

-20*oC or even lower Winter Screen wash really is not much cope even at -12*oC ambient.  Even if it comes out the nozzles it freezes on the screen and leaves you seeing nothing.

Most likely to freeze in the pipes under the bonnet without a heat source under it.

@3*oC here now.

Damp traps in the car and plugged in ready for pre-heating later tonight or tomorrow. 

 

 

Perhaps car companies need to make more of their Nordic/Scandinavian packs available. There are the various bits and pieces every manufacturers have in their parts list but getting them available in what they deem as warmer climates seems too difficult for them. Which is a shame when areas like the English Midlands and Northern Scotland can see these temperatures not much above 250 K.

 

In Alberta where I was a few years ago temp can get down to -40. The place where Farenheit and Celsius are the same.

 

 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by lol-lol

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What we all need is more honest posts about living with EV's in the real world for the people trapped in circumstances that do not lend themselves running an EV cheaply

You might be waiting a while..... most EV owners can charge at home. There's still 10 years to go though. So it's not a really a worry for now.

 

5 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Most likely to freeze in the pipes under the bonnet without a heat source under it.

@3*oC here now.

Now is about the time you only put in concentrated screen wash. I start in September just to be safe. Then only switch to summer mix ratio in March-ish time.

 

Tesla vehicles actually have a "heated wiper park" button. I always turn it on when it gets slightly cold. Can't see anything happening even when snowing, but never had frozen stuttery blade.

https://teslanorth.com/2022/02/10/tesla-model-3-y-heated-wiper-park-heats-up-to-100f-shows-test/

 

4 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance/public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance

It says:

"Proprietary networks that open their charge points for public use will have one year from the date that the charge point becomes public to offer contactless."

 

I wonder if by not opening or even closing V2/V3 to other EV, Those old Tesla locations doesn't fall under this regulation?

Porsche dealers have already put a note on their chargers about  no longer being open to other brands according to a well known youtube blogger

51 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

I wonder if by not opening or even closing V2/V3 to other EV, Those old Tesla locations doesn't fall under this regulation?

 

I thought V2/v3 cannot be used by other brands anyway it's only V4 ?

 

Car manufacturers networks are exempt from the regulations

 

Edited 16 November, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

21 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

I thought V2/v3 cannot be used by other brands anyway it's only V4 ?

 

Car manufacturers networks are exempt from the regulations

 

Some V2/V3 are open to all. For example all of Scotland ones above the Glasgow/Edinburgh belt. Octohere regularly charges at a V3 from his photos.

All V4 are open to all.

 

Sounds like V2/V3 will revert back to Tesla only avoid this regulation, which is rumoured to happen before year end.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/first-tesla-v4-superchargers-in-uk.179536/page-31?post_id=3688531#post-3688531

@wyx087 -3*oC at present.

 

This being repeated is a nonsense. 

 'Most people charge at home'  is not true really,  is that supposed private / business users of passenger cars and some with vans?

The Office for national statistics & the HMRC / Government, RAC / AA does not even know how many people in the UK, how many Houses / Accommodations there are, or how many drive.

Or work, pay taxes etc etc   They know how many cheat benefits supposedly, odd that, why not stop them then?

 

Winter prep starts in September for many in the UK because temps can drop even though the BBC / Sky weather will say the first real cold weather of the winter in November 

just as they said this week, just because it will be cold in the south.

Some use winter wash all year in the UK because low night / day temps can be anytime. 

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/140853-get-it-ready-for-winter/page/9

 

Fortunately extreme low temps in the UK are not common and the Thames freezing over.

But,

frozen is frozen. be it at zero or minus 5 or 10 degrees C. 

 

TESLA, 

Amazing advances in technology.... Not.

 

As to washing cars in freezing weather, that always amazes me for stupidity of others.

But in the UK it can just be rain or thawing before a freeze, or people pouring water on the door locks to defrost or the filler flap and not expecting it to be frozen next time when they have no warm or hot water, rea or coffee handy, or do not need to pee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Minus 4 C.  Battery at 92% range 93 miles.  Turned on pre heat now and will see in 5 minutes how the scores on the doors are.  See if the windows drop ok.  Should be fine it was dry when parked and now just hoar frosted. 

5 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@wyx087 -3*oC at present.

 

This being repeated is a nonsense. 

 'Most people charge at home'  is not true really,  is that supposed private / business users of passenger cars and some with vans?

The Office for national statistics & the HMRC / Government, RAC / AA does not even know how many people in the UK, how many Houses / Accommodations there are, or how many drive.

Or work, pay taxes etc etc   They know how many cheat benefits supposedly, odd that, why not stop them then?

 

Winter prep starts in September for many in the UK because temps can drop even though the BBC / Sky weather will say the first real cold weather of the winter in November 

just as they said this week, just because it will be cold in the south.

Some use winter wash all year in the UK because low night / day temps can be anytime. 

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/140853-get-it-ready-for-winter/page/9

 

Fortunately extreme low temps in the UK are not common and the Thames freezing over.

But,

frozen is frozen. be it at zero or minus 5 or 10 degrees C. 

 

TESLA, 

Amazing advances in technology.... Not.

 

As to washing cars in freezing weather, that always amazes me for stupidity of others.

But in the UK it can just be rain or thawing before a freeze, or people pouring water on the door locks to defrost or the filler flap and not expecting it to be frozen next time when they have no warm or hot water, rea or coffee handy, or do not need to pee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What a faff, imagine that being an emergency situation, you would be totally knackered. Just imagine if the car was an emergency response vehicle on a life or death situation, not good at all.

 

More work required I think to make the total experience of EV ownership more realistic and survivable, less style and more practicality is required I think. Even though the door locks/handles look good but surely common sense should have kicked in at the design stage as these problems were completely foreseeable, even the electrical operated latches are disaster waiting to happen as there have many cases of them not operable after a crash, or fire starts taking out the electrics and trapping people inside, not good at all.

Edited 17 November, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

'Oh yes they will!'. 

No why Jose can the manufacturers shift in the UK the required percentage of new EV,s required in 2025 then 2026.

 

Chances of her punted from the ministerial job she is in is pretty high. 

 

http://bbc.com/news/articles/cz6je5w7n3yo

 

Edited 17 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Maybe listen to Mrs pick a number any number.

Is it really Something like 75% of people that now have Off Street Parking, at their home is this?

@32 minutes.

Lilian Greenwood MP is her name. 

 Parliamentary Under Secretary of state (Minister for Future of roads.)    Best Fact Check anything she says. 

Her out and about coffee will be on expenses, i hope her out and about is in an EV.

 

 

 

..................

Lovely cars. Porsche will first register lots of them, and sell new or used, quite often to Porsche / VW.

 

 

I can imagine the 'Lifestyle users' are going to be more inclined to a transporter with track car or boat / jet ski or maybe a horse box...(pony)

more than a caravan / trailer tent.

(The 50 mph limit in the UK towing on single carriageways will help with range.) 

 

2.5 - 2.6 miles a kWh solo. says a lot Real World, UK NSL,s.

 

100kWh battery or 95 kWh usable.

If it has a 330 mile range that is just under 3.5 miles a kWh efficiency.

95 kWh & 2.6 miles a kWh is 247 miles, using all the battery.

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

12 hours ago, Ootohere said:

This being repeated is a nonsense. 

 'Most people charge at home'  is not true really,  is that supposed private / business users of passenger cars and some with vans?

The Office for national statistics & the HMRC / Government, RAC / AA does not even know how many people in the UK, how many Houses / Accommodations there are, or how many drive.

Or work, pay taxes etc etc   They know how many cheat benefits supposedly, odd that, why not stop them then?

How many people without driveways actually drive EV's? Are those without driveway a minority or majority within the EV driving population?

Thus currently most EV drivers do charge at home. Finance dictates people's behaviour. No one who can charge at home will go and do public charging. Even for free, rapid charging weekly is just not convenient, wastes time.

 

12 hours ago, Ootohere said:

TESLA, 

The door handle is no problem after freezing rain. Just turn on pre conditioning and press the smaller side a few times. The smaller side can be pressed in a tiny bit for breaking the ice on the larger bit.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_tw/GUID-F907200E-A619-4A95-A0CF-94E0D03BEBEF.html

 

In my experience, I've had more problem opening ICE car door than EV's due to no way to precondition. Ice build up on the door seals for all cars.

 

The green wrapped Model S plaid has many problems from day 1, it's a lemon.

 

2 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Totally agree, stop thinking the petrol station model. EV batteries are an asset to grid with renewables, need to get people into the mindset that a parked EV not plugged in is a wasted resource.

@wyx087 Many of us are not daft and prep vehicle door seals for winter. Fuel flaps also.  Not just Oop North.

 

As to driveways. 

This will be Tory land statistics where they think everyone has a Passport, a mobile phone and EV drivers have driveways. Or 2nd Homes.

 There is no actual proof that statistics on home charging are correct.

There is a Government Minister going as far as 75% or something like that having off street parking, not necessarily with EV,s yet or chargers.. 

 

Drivers of the 1.2 million or so EV,s will be a high proportion with the likes of Hire Cars, Courtesy Cars, Fleet cars, Fire, Police, Ambulance / NHS, Carers, Social Work, Councils, Car Clubs, delivery drivers, taxis / private hire cars, Utility companies, vans etc etc.

Some will take them home maybe to park on the street or off street. But Home Charging / Paying for the Electric?

 

 

Edited 17 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

As the saying goes, 80% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Also, AI answers are not to be trusted.

 

For London, many will happily use public transport and car share schemes. So it is very reasonable to say that the percentage of household that actually need driveway for EV charging is lower than driveway statistics (whatever it is) suggest.

Extend this thinking to whole country, many flats are located in city centres where car ownership is often not necessary.

 

Of course, as you can all clearly see, same as my previous post, my assumptions are all stated and wording are carefully considered so that it is in no way can be read as factual. Unlike some other poster.

I came across this interesting USA article today. It states that Tesla are the most dangerous car brand measured in deaths per mile driven! 

 

 

https://jalopnik.com/teslas-are-the-most-fatal-cars-on-the-road-study-finds-1851700691

 

 

Now of course there is a touch of sensationalism, the same way as people love to beat down on BMWs if they are involved in an accident, but it still surprised me greatly, as Tesla promote their cars as having an unbelievable wealth of automated safety features.  

 

Anyhoo, if you read a little more of the article that is referred to in the above link, then you see it is the brand rather than a specific car and a conclusion of 'it might be how Tesla's are driven' rather than the cars themselves (which do generally rate well in crash testing). Breakdown of figures below. The Hyundai Venue seems extremely vulnerable to crash death per mile ratio for instance.

 

https://www.iseecars.com/most-dangerous-cars-study#v=2024

 

Perhaps tesla drivers are too reliant on the car sorting out their driving, rather than them taking responsibility for their own actions? Anyhoo ,there is perhaps a discussion to be had on automated systems versus human responsibilty? 

@wyx087The AI generated search answers are just taken from sources not to be trusted or taken with a pinch of salt.

Those are from the figures the Politicians in Westminster and the Lords use, quote.

 

The thing that is strange about London and these properties with drives is that even not big properties van be sub divided and house many more people than the councils know live there who might not be related and the properties not having panning for being HMO,s.

 

The London and region population which might be 8 million or more compared to Scotland and 6 million or less has apparently 10 times more public EV chargers with over 22,000 & Scotland with between 2 & 3,000. 

Seemingly over 71,000 chargers for the whole of the UK. 36 charging locations, 109,000 connections.

 

Nothing as far as the numbers as it is pick a number any number & does not mean much but what is obvious is the London with it,s population & visiting vehicles has maybe 10% of the countries population and who knows how many EV,s but is where there are lots and lots of the UK Charging Connectors yet seemingly there are many many Home Charging because "Finance dictates people's behaviour".

There are a lot of public provision of public charging in 1 UK region, possibly because needed, but if these are being installed and not used that matters.

Is it provide them and they will come?

 

 

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

A Vid from 7 months ago.

No sign of the new UK Government doing anything to encourage the take up of EV,s in the UK.  Like the reduction of VAT from 20% for electricity from public chargers.

Friday this week the new Price Cap on Energy will be announced. 

 

 

 

Posted 13 days ago. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere