13 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Thankfully we are moving on and Euro6e BIS and Euro 7 use different conditions etc. I hope they retest many of these ICE cars that got Euro 6a to d certification of under 8p mg / km and their true levels of pollution are republished anfmd if they fail to meet the limits then they are restricted in where they can go. We saw lots if Euro 5 cars be sold off as they were not fit to enter city areas without paying fines and the same will happen to Euro 6 a to d cars that don't really pass the emissions test in the real world.

PHEV hybrids are being reclassified from the wildly exaggerated 500 mpg plus and 10 gm / km of CO2 to more like 50 gm / km and pay the VED and BIK tax levels at those higher levels. This comes in in t months time I gather.

That is all fine and dandy as long as the full emissions trail and the method of assessing it is also conducted in an open fair way with all forms of EV's as well.

Like I said, we all have to be using the same system and standards on both sides of the ICE v EV thing or otherwise it is just pointless.

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

That is all fine and dandy as long as the full emissions trail and the method of assessing it is also conducted in an open fair way with all forms of EV's as well.

Like I said, we all have to be using the same system and standards on both sides of the ICE v EV thing or otherwise it is just pointless.

The new emmisson standard is going to test ICE cars at higher temperature, specifically at 35C rather than just 30C, temperatures we are seeing in the UK increasingly like we did here in Worcestcestershire a few weeks ago and similar in SE England.

With Euro 7 the test us to include brake dust but this is just another area EVs will win hands down due to their regenerative braking.

The only area EVs owners might be worried is tyre particles but, as we have shown with examples, EVs are not, in general, the super heavy weights painted in the bias media.

Also a test for engines, and batteries, at high mileages. Yet another win for EVs. Whilst ICE vehicles will have leaking piston rings etc the EV motor etc just keep on knocking out similar power with no pollution from the power plant.

As with the conditions of the EV grants if the battery falls to below 80 % capacity that is poor but even then the EV is usable and clean and not belching out massive pollution way outside its parameters like ICE would be.

Fix might be relatively simple replacing the below par cell or pack.

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

The new emission standard is going to test ICE cars at higher temperature, specifically at 35C rather than just 30C

Which will mean less time in the warmup phase for ICE, and hence could lead to lower emission figures without any actual change to the engine mechanics or fuelling strategy - so will make ICE appear better during the test without any effect on the real world figures!

17 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Which will mean less time in the warmup phase for ICE, and hence could lead to lower emission figures without any actual change to the engine mechanics or fuelling strategy - so will make ICE appear better during the test without any effect on the real world figures!

Yes quicker warm up for the higher temperatures but probably more NOX as that occurs more at higher combustion temperature. On our super massive marine diesels, most efficient ICE on the planet, a 1 degree rise in intake temp translated to a 2c rise in exhaust temp.

NOX is more the concern than CO2 these days.

32 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

The new emmisson standard is going to test ICE cars at higher temperature, specifically at 35C rather than just 30C,

A car engine's normal operating temperature is typically between 90c and 105c.

People are 37c

Edited 22 October, 202522 Oct by Stonekeeper

30 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

A car engine's normal operating temperature is typically between 90c and 105c.

People are 37c

Presume you are referring to the cooling water. Modern cars have two cooling water circulatory systems, then there is the oil temp which starts at ambient but not unusually to hit a temp usually runs a bit higher than the water ie even above 200c at time of very high engine stress.

Edited 22 October, 202522 Oct by lol-lol

Whatever testing method, at least EV will never have this problem because there is no exhaust.

Sky News

Dieselgate: Five carmakers go on trial in UK

The class action beginning at the High Court today could yet be expanded to include 1.8 million customers of 14 car brands, one law firm involved in the case says.

@lol-lol where are these 2 water cooling systems on modern cars, please, all the ICE engines I have ever come across only have the one system. I think you may be getting confused again about your EV which I believe does have 2 systems, one for the electric motor and invertor cooling and the other for the battery pack, geez I thought everybody was claiming that EV cars are simpler, that does not sound like it to me so far.

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol where are these 2 water cooling systems on modern cars, please, all the ICE engines I have ever come across only have the one system. I think you may be getting confused again about your EV which I believe does have 2 systems, one for the electric motor and invertor cooling and the other for the battery pack, geez I thought everybody was claiming that EV cars are simpler, that does not sound like it to me so far.

Indeed one system but the cylinder head is more of a sub system compared to the jacket. Clearly they have to be seperate and heads are removable from the jackets.

The cooling water in the head will typically run 10c hotter than the cooling water in the jacket as the cylindef head has much more exposure to high temperatures. The cylinders are cooled by the oil as well as cooling water.

Always a touch one as to which sub system to send the cooling water to first and which sub system, head or jacket first.

What I do know it use to take me 10 minutes to change a thermostat and whole thing cost me about 10 quid. Now it requires about 3 hours work, told may as well change water pump as well whilst got engine apart and it cost me £800.

Progress for another 5 mpg i gather !!

One of the many reasons I went electric. Three times the efficiency less than a tenth of the complexity !

Edited 22 October, 202522 Oct by lol-lol

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol where are these 2 water cooling systems on modern cars, please, all the ICE engines I have ever come across only have the one system. I think you may be getting confused again about your EV which I believe does have 2 systems, one for the electric motor and invertor cooling and the other for the battery pack, geez I thought everybody was claiming that EV cars are simpler, that does not sound like it to me so far.

Where is your source of info for EV's have 2 cooling systems?

All EV I've seen only have 1 coolant tank. There may be systems that seem complicated (tear down of Ford Mach-e looks full of pipes) but underlaying principle is quite simple.

Early Nissan Leaf only have 1 coolant loop for the motor, doesn't even have intercooler for cabin, just radiator + motor stack (I'm unsure if inverter gets any coolant, as it's built like an engine sitting on top of the motor) in this loop. Cabin has independent AC system and PTC heater. Battery doesn't get anything.

Tesla have "Octovalve". It handles liquid distribution and all the components can be accessible once taken the frunk off. Below is a video of swapping in a new heat pump compressor. Everything is 1 loop with Octovalve managing the flow. There's a customer service menu allowing customer to do any work they desire.

Detailed first-party workshop service manual freely available online: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Model3/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-50BD94A1-A00B-40DC-8241-4E75CF0B702B.html

Which other manufacturer publishes those, with detailed photo+video for to work on their cars?

Jalopnik

The Tesla Model Y's Octovalve And Cooling System Manifold...

Automotive benchmarking company Munro & Associates has been tearing into a Tesla Model Y for a number of weeks now, and perhaps the company’s most intriguing discovery is the amazing cooling system...

All seems much simpler than coolant system + turbo intercooler + emission control systems in ICE vehicles.

Edited 22 October, 202522 Oct by wyx087

i see what you mean, but it is still only one system, the water flows straight from the block or jacket as you call it, into the head via waterways in the head gasket and the pump on modern cars is indeed normally mounted in the block/jacket at the front of the engine. But your garage took advantage of you with that £800 as on my Superb, the pump is recommended to be replaced at the same as replacing the cambelt which does require engine to be stripped down so the belt and pump come as a kit and that only cost me about £500 a couple of years ago at the main dealer.

It is possible to replace the pump and thermostat without taking engine apart, but you do have to take quite a bit off to get access to it, this video shows it. I expect that is why the belt and pump are often at the same time because of the time taken to get access.

@wyx087 I was looking at this document, and it certainly looks more complicated than the cooling for ICE, especially as the document states the danger of not keeping the battery pack at the optimal temperature, risks a dangerous thermal runaway event of the battery.

EV Battery Cooling - How Does It Work? — Lectron EV

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

EV Battery Cooling - How Does It Work? — Lectron EV

That's a really strange article, almost seems like AI written it: no references to sources, half truths written confidently.

On this part:

"

It's important to manage battery heat during use and ensure it stays within these ranges. When temperatures climb to high levels, typically between 158°F and 212°F, there's a risk of thermal runaway—a dangerous chain reaction that can lead to battery pack destruction.

"

It completely ignores that BMS will manage the charge and discharge rates to prevent overheating. There's a lot more control over battery temperature than the mandatory oil and coolant required by ICE.

Put it simply, BMS controlled charge/discharge a giant battery at very slow rate rate would not raise its temperature. Basic physics: energy = work over time. Increase time and decrease work will reduce heat energy generation.

19 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

It completely ignores that BMS will manage the charge and discharge rates to prevent overheating.

So on a hot day in a hot climate when climbing a long hill will the BMS reduce the discharge rate and hence reduce the available power to the motors - potentially making it not possible to maintain the same speed up the hill?

Will there be any warning to the driver that he is about to lose (or has lost) some power?

Yes. But not all BEV,s are the same in say the past 15 years of production.

Reduced power available is really quite common in cold conditions, very hot conditions and even in the state of charge in the battery, not just small amounts of a reduction in certain cases.

Just look at the various Vehicles, battery sizes, performances etc.

50 % available power reduction with many a BEV even less powerful ones might still mean a decent acceleration and max speed is still available.

PS. A power meter / gauge or message / read out is pretty much standard to show available power.

Edited 23 October, 202523 Oct by Evolution13

4 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

So on a hot day in a hot climate when climbing a long hill will the BMS reduce the discharge rate and hence reduce the available power to the motors - potentially making it not possible to maintain the same speed up the hill?

Will there be any warning to the driver that he is about to lose (or has lost) some power?

I think Not to the extent that the ev doesn't work normally.

Whatever it's top bhp was would be reduced so things like 0-60 times would be slower. Maybe instead of 3sec it would be 8.

I watch Kyle Connor on youtube and he does track days etc in the 90s centigrade on his own circuit. Studies all the data has he goes. When limited performance comes up on the screens he can still drive normally.

He does road trips to Vegas challenging many evs in high temperatures through The Eisenhower tunnel and the cars don't drop from his set speed goal of 75mph

Maybe there might be a reduced 62 MPH (100KM) or even to 100 MPH time.

But then again the car might show as having only 80% available power and there is no actual reduced standing sprint to 62 mph.

ICE cars, performance or not can have the reduced performance with Heat Soak', or at altitude or when not up to efficient temperature, or just on less than their optimum octane rated fuel.

Edited 23 October, 202523 Oct by Evolution13

23 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

So on a hot day in a hot climate when climbing a long hill will the BMS reduce the discharge rate and hence reduce the available power to the motors - potentially making it not possible to maintain the same speed up the hill?

Will there be any warning to the driver that he is about to lose (or has lost) some power?

What Evo and Stone said.

WRT not maintain speed up a really long hill, if there is a fault with cooling system, yes power may be reduced causing problem maintaining speed. Power will also be reduced without any fault when very low SoC.

Almost all EV will have available power (both drive and regen) indication. gen 1 Leaf is the bubbles, Tesla is the dotted lines.

Due to ultra efficient nature of EV's, during normal driving and normal AC charging, excess heat isn't the problem. I have driven our gen1 Leaf like I stole it in 35c and never see thermal throttle, only went up to 6 bars. Generally EV battery cooling are designed for rapid charging or track use. Day to day, the coolant only circulates to ensure even temeprature across the cells. So you'll need a really really long hill or be driving like on a track to really need the battery thermal management.

The ONLY case where I think there may be a cause for concern is during rapid charging. Let's say if there is a coolant leak in the radiators, Tesla pre-heats the battery to over 50c using motors as resistive heater, then during rapid charging coolant leaks out when going through the radiator. But I believe the car/BMS would be smart enough to detect the fault and shut off rapid charging, thus instantly stop adding energy into the system.

17 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

i see what you mean, but it is still only one system, the water flows straight from the block or jacket as you call it, into the head via waterways in the head gasket and the pump on modern cars is indeed normally mounted in the block/jacket at the front of the engine. But your garage took advantage of you with that £800 as on my Superb, the pump is recommended to be replaced at the same as replacing the cambelt which does require engine to be stripped down so the belt and pump come as a kit and that only cost me about £500 a couple of years ago at the main dealer.

It is possible to replace the pump and thermostat without taking engine apart, but you do have to take quite a bit off to get access to it, this video shows it. I expect that is why the belt and pump are often at the same time because of the time taken to get access.

The local Skoda dealership quoted nearly £1K so I got it done by an ex Skoda dealership that had moved over to selling Dacia and Renault and were very glad they did and they got lots of sales as those brands did so well in the last decade.

I think the water pump was changed as well as the thermostat and it is quite common to replace the belt and tensioner also when doing the pump and thermostat. Modern, even small wiesel engines and so complex fort such a little engine. Think it might have been 105 hp, basically a 3 cylinder version of the 4 cylinder common rail version. Great mpg ie up to 80 mpg on a run.

Glad I now live with a bunch of cars with much simpler mechanicals.

Two Octopus notable time slots coming up this weekend 24th -26th Octy.

Free electricity 9pm to 10 pm tomorrow, the 24th of October and

Dont forget the hour going back 2 am becoming 1 am means, with Octopus Go and perhaps other tariffs, an extra hour of 8.5p, 7p etc per kwh cheap lecky !

Get ready to fill you boots (ie batteries car and home)

On 21/10/2025 at 15:32, wyx087 said:

Well, is it true or not that fossil fuel powered transport contributes a significant amount to climate change?

https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/media_gstc/FACT_SHEET_Climate_Change.pdf

and

Restricting power would not increase range, the bigger the battery the easier it is to draw more power from it. Because it decreases C rating.

Range is never an issue as I'm sure many people actually driving EV can attest.

As previously mentioned, MEB cars are on the heavy side compared to American/French EV's, not sure about Chinese, they are not really focused on efficiency. Similarly, Skoda MQB cars are on the lighter side.

By the way, seeing Kodiaq is 7 seat capable, I'd class Enryaq/ID4 one size below.

As with all things, there's variation. Until an average is calculated across the market for different "classes", I don't think it is fair to continue the old thinking that EV are heavier, often repeated by poorly researched articles.

As I've shown back in 2023, there's lighter BEV and heavier ICE vehicles. Just as you can cherry pick your car to claim otherwise.

Sorry, range is most certainly an issue. Mostly because of broken chargers or inconsiderate twits going to 100% in their eqs.

Big problem with SUV is the slab nose and the height at which they ride. Most cars have a raked bonnets at a lower height.

A generic SUV is pretty much a blunt force at the head/ribs or hips of whoever is hit, folding them at 90 degrees or shoving them forward.

Look at a RR or a Q7 or a GLE and see how highly they area. Same goes for an EX90, q6 etron. Same goes for any pickup truck.

Compare the to a car or size wise to a mk1 Land Rover.

I would say weight and bonnet height/angle are major problems across the board.

Edited 23 October, 202523 Oct by Monkhai

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Two Octopus notable time slots coming up this weekend 24th -26th Octy.

Free electricity 9pm to 10 pm tomorrow, the 24th of October and

Dont forget the hour going back 2 am becoming 1 am means, with Octopus Go and perhaps other tariffs, an extra hour of 8.5p, 7p etc per kwh cheap lecky !

Get ready to fill you boots (ie batteries car and home)

I’m not sure the extra hour applies does it. I thought they had a get out.

Willing to be wrong, but better to check.

9 hours ago, wyx087 said:

What Evo and Stone said.

WRT not maintain speed up a really long hill, if there is a fault with cooling system, yes power may be reduced causing problem maintaining speed. Power will also be reduced without any fault when very low SoC.

Almost all EV will have available power (both drive and regen) indication. gen 1 Leaf is the bubbles, Tesla is the dotted lines.

Due to ultra efficient nature of EV's, during normal driving and normal AC charging, excess heat isn't the problem. I have driven our gen1 Leaf like I stole it in 35c and never see thermal throttle, only went up to 6 bars. Generally EV battery cooling are designed for rapid charging or track use. Day to day, the coolant only circulates to ensure even temeprature across the cells. So you'll need a really really long hill or be driving like on a track to really need the battery thermal management.

The ONLY case where I think there may be a cause for concern is during rapid charging. Let's say if there is a coolant leak in the radiators, Tesla pre-heats the battery to over 50c using motors as resistive heater, then during rapid charging coolant leaks out when going through the radiator. But I believe the car/BMS would be smart enough to detect the fault and shut off rapid charging, thus instantly stop adding energy into the system.

Or you could just get a car with 800v batteries and this isn’t a problem

23 minutes ago, Monkhai said:

I’m not sure the extra hour applies does it. I thought they had a get out.

Willing to be wrong, but better to check.

Thought it did when did it before but of course one gets the reverse in the Spring when one loses an hour in the 0030 to 0530 GO Night period.

One does not trust the Smart Meter as that is oft wrong. GO stated period on website etc just says 0030 to 0530, nothing about BST or GMT.