1 hour ago, Lee01 said:

Did you speak to them all?

Gosh, yes. We wouldn't want to be an alarmist nay sayer would we.

And your qualifications are what, precisely?

You may be willing to take a risk; I'm not.

I'm all for solar panels; I have 13 of them on my roof, and yes, I could, if I wanted to, make contact with live connections, BUT I would have to use a tool to do it, and by definition, I would be deemed to know what I was doing. But a lead connected to a 13A BS1363 plug lying around on the floor, etc., is something that we have become accustomed to, safe in the knowledge that it is 100% safe to pick up because it was wired to a load, NOT a generator.

Germany leading the way in Balcony plug in solar and not heard of significant issues within the renewables energy community.

UK systems look even safer in than the Gernany systems and the UK finally embrassing more so micro generation will be good for UK home energy bills.

Only 4 weeks to go and hopefully suupliers will be ready to sell the UK kits at reasonable prices. Recall I saw whole 800w kits for about £399. Not sure on the VAT status but it should be Zero rated IMO. May wait for Black Friday and then go for it for significant extra generation for Spring time.

Edited 19 hours ago19 hr by lol-lol

12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

No, its not BS, it's 100% true unless something happens to derail it.

The system apparently relies heavily on software and electronics which detects the steady frequency of grid-supplied power to keep the mini inverter operational. I and the rest of the UK electrical industry fear that it is a matter of time before that system will fail with someone potentially being electrocuted.

Its a shame that someone did not design a dedicated interface that does not use a 13A plug top with its always-exposed pins, which would completely remove its current weak link. But I fear that once again, people with little real knowledge are making knee-jerk decisions in order to keep their political goals on course.

In the meantime all we can do is keep our fingers crossed that the feared event never actually happens.

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer I have to agree with @Graham Butcher about safety concerns, in every other area of electrical safety the system is designed so that there has to be two unrelated failures before it becomes unsafe.

With plug-in solar using a UK standard 13A there is only a single point failure (in the inverter) for an unplugged 13A plug to become live - so it fails the basic electrical safety requirement.

This could easily be corrected by requiring they be fitted with a plug having shielded pins such as an IEC type, and requiring the installation of a mating wall mounted socket.

If I were still employed the terms of being a Chartered Engineer would require me to refuse any instruction to install one of these systems while fitted with a UK standard 13A plug.

32 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer I have to agree with @Graham Butcher about safety concerns, in every other area of electrical safety the system is designed so that there has to be two unrelated failures before it becomes unsafe.

With plug-in solar using a UK standard 13A there is only a single point failure (in the inverter) for an unplugged 13A plug to become live - so it fails the basic electrical safety requirement.

This could easily be corrected by requiring they be fitted with a plug having shielded pins such as an IEC type, and requiring the installation of a mating wall mounted socket.

If I were still employed the terms of being a Chartered Engineer would require me to refuse any instruction to install one of these systems while fitted with a UK standard 13A plug.

Thank you for the endorsement. I have been in the electrical industry all my life, having left school and gone straight into an electrical apprenticeship and spending almost 8 years in college acquiring 3 City and Guilds certificates at a pretty high level, alongside other qualifications to enable me to become a college lecturer in electrical engineering and an instructor for the apprentices in my control. This was because my employer at that time was planning to open up their internal college to train future engineers.

This was when I was employed by Eastern National Omnibus Company (ENOC). This was part of the National Bus Company when there was a joined-up transport system consisting of buses, road haulage (British Road Services, known as BRS) and, of course, British Rail.

I chose that route to enter the profession because of my love for electricity and also motor vehicles, so that combined 2 passions for me. I have continued within the profession until I retired in 2016, during which time I was approached by many electrical consulting companies to join them but preferred to remain more on the hands-on side of the industry.

I just hope and pray that the possible failures never happen, but judging by the sheer number of reports about modern safety systems on cars failing, such as ghost emergency braking, etc., I cannot accept that it's not going to happen, which, as you correctly pointed out, could all be prevented by the addition of a shielded interface system like the IEC type.

Seems like plug-in solar has a decent safety record. At least here in Germany.

https://energiewende.bundeswirtschaftsministerium.de/EWD/Redaktion/EN/Newsletter/2025/01/Meldung/direkt-account.html

https://www.solarwirtschaft.de/en/2025/12/17/din-vde-worlds-first-standard-for-plug-in-solar-devices/

https://www.dw.com/en/mini-plug-in-solar-panels-are-they-worth-it/a-66240262

https://www.conow.com/blog/balcony-solar-overload-risk-germany-800w-safety

@Lee01 So far as recorded incidents go. Much the same claims have been made about Tesla's self-drive system for a long time. There were no reports of any issues, but that is no longer the case, is it?

11 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Seems like plug-in solar has a decent safety record. At least here in Germany.

https://energiewende.bundeswirtschaftsministerium.de/EWD/Redaktion/EN/Newsletter/2025/01/Meldung/direkt-account.html

https://www.solarwirtschaft.de/en/2025/12/17/din-vde-worlds-first-standard-for-plug-in-solar-devices/

https://www.dw.com/en/mini-plug-in-solar-panels-are-they-worth-it/a-66240262

https://www.conow.com/blog/balcony-solar-overload-risk-germany-800w-safety

Indeed.

Personally, and as a marine engineer we are trained and responsible for a similar scenario of running all the electrical aspects of a small town or city, generation of power from super heated steam or diesel, distribution throughout massive ships, massive electrical appliances and motors.

Balcony - plug in solar already demonstrated to have very small risk.

Whether install done by the householder or an electrician who has done their City and Guilds the risks of plug in solar are probably not the ones highlighted above.

Inverter over heating when badly placed ie in a warm or hot environment might be an underestimated risk.

Personally I would not have solar panels on my roof unless i spec'ed and checked the spec ie air gaps and use of sufficiently large cross section and quality cable. As Graham pointed out increasing numbers of solar panels getting hot and fires happening.

I have about two dozen panels but mounted away from the house on tracking arrays or on fence posts. I can see us using water cooling for panels more and more. Panels are more efficient closer to ambient.

Edited 13 hours ago13 hr by lol-lol

Apparently over 80% of company cars ordered in the UK are EVs !!!

Yes, it is still largely companies that are spearheading the EV adoption. The real question here is, of course, if there was no financial incentive for them to go the EV route, would they?

38 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, it is still largely companies that are spearheading the EV adoption. The real question here is, of course, if there was no financial incentive for them to go the EV route, would they?

I did.

When i ordered my Renault 5 there was no financial bungs.

The £1500 came between ordering and delivering and was handed to me at time of paying the PCP deposit.

Car came with 0% finance for the remaining monies minus the deposit.

Also got a discount of about £1k and for a car that was in huge demand then and seems to still be it meant basically getting the car for less than £20k, monthly payments of way less than £100 a month and running costs are tiny.

Took out the monthly service plan, £9 a month, charge the car on negative priced electricity much of the time.

Trying to convince other family members that they are paying are fortune in running costs, diesel, petrol, also costs after MOTs, servicing which add up to at least £2k and more like £3k to £4k when I am paying barely over £1k. Insurance cheapish too.

Only, albeit significant, was the £8k upfront for the deposit but I needed to get rid of that sort of amount or pay interest on its interest or stuff away in an ISA.

No brainer I though now and with electricity prices having fell big time since the start of the year and hydrocarbon costs gone the other way my choice was even further endorsed.

Edited 14 hours ago14 hr by lol-lol

27 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I did.

When i ordered my Renault 5 there was no financial bungs.

Yes, we know you paid for your car, but you aren't a company, which is what we are discussing here, following your statement of "Apparently over 80% of company cars ordered in the UK are EVs !!!"

So you've moved the goal posts again.

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, we know you paid for your car, but you aren't a company, which is what we are discussing here, following your statement of "Apparently over 80% of company cars ordered in the UK are EVs !!!"

So you've moved the goal posts again.

Just saying that private buying is a significant chunk ie about 1 in 5. From what i read on the Renault Groups plenty others are buing Renaults privately. EV grants for all EV purchases I presume but the EV sacrifice schemes are very generous. For 40 and 45% tax payers getting £400 a month cut off the payments bring a whole host of what would have been unaffordable into affordability.

There will be VAT payment on the leasing jf which not all is recoverable so as with EV private purchases there is VAT to pay which far exceeds the EV grant.

Government does not loss out in all ways and, as it was eith thd last Con government, they do grants and tax breaks to achieve the net zero objectives and most company cars is another strand in hitting the intermediate stepping stone reduction in CO2 targets. Such schemes and Israel and Trump's war, and Russia- Ukraine all speeding up EV adoption for UK companies and UK private buyers.

New seak by TESLA a boozy. Think it is £499 a month and you get a TESLA car and a TESLA Powerwall home battery system. One of my diesel head relatives had picked up on this.

Edited 12 hours ago12 hr by lol-lol

Last week i asked Google AI a few questions of answers i knew and i was given totally wrong answers. As far as Company Cars, or Company Vehicles i have no idea and am not actually sure i would trust whoever it is with the statistics and scores on the doors. Office for National Statistics is not reliable, or the DVLA, HMRC or SMMT as far as i am concerned. Private drivers leasing / renting cars are not buying them, there is a company / business / financial institution or maybe Motability BUYING the vehicle NEW.

Edited 13 hours ago13 hr by Evolution13

No one is denying that there will be many private buyers of EVs, just as no one was actually talking about the numbers of them being company cars until @lol-lol mentioned it.

It is perfectly logical that there would be significant numbers of them in private ownership in the same way as there are loads of diesel cars in private ownership. There are many parallels between them I suspect, and that from the very start there was some private owners who actually chose to have them – yes, that's right, chose.

For many people, the entire debacle of EVs is all about the right to choose, and for many, I suspect that decision was made upon the realisation that there could be much cheapness to be had from home charging and the other aspect that for lots of early adopters, their actual transportation requirements were more about local drives to and from work, shopping, taking kids to school and other such relatively short journeys with the promise of being able to top the battery up to full again overnight.

I seriously doubt that global warming or air quality was uppermost in their minds at the time. When the narrative switched to climate change, I accept that some will have become converts at that point. When the WEF and WHO got behind them, the emphasis suddenly switched, and governments started to encourage businesses to make the switch by way of inducements, just as they did with diesel.

In my own case with diesel, although I had a car shortly after being able to drive legally, I have always had petrol, although there were a few diesel cars around in the 70s, but mainly they were converted to use engines made by Perkins, and they tended in the main to be taxis; there were a few large luxury cars such as Jaguars converted, not for the performance, I add.

My introduction to diesel cars was while I was working for Crabtree Electrical, who switched their fleet over to diesel because the UK government introduced incentives to companies to switch to what was then claimed to be the fuel of the future. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

At that time I was spending 5 days a week driving lots of miles, crisscrossing London to visit electrical consulting companies working on some very interesting projects, and I was impressed by the way that they transformed driving in London's heavy traffic with their low-down grunt, pulling the car along in slow traffic with ease, just by using the clutch only. That first car was a Vauxhall Cavalier, and I became hooked on diesel from then on.

Now I fully expect that the lion's share of people on this forum who have EVs as their own private transportation share the same route, starting with their companies either adopting electric for their fleets if it suits their needs or via salary sacrifice schemes and lower BIK rates.

Many of you have made no secret of the fact that you love the instant torque that the electric motor gives you and lightning-fast acceleration, allowing all of you to get to the next set of traffic lights or up to 60 mph before any ICE cars. Now I also suspect that many find that aspect so addictive, combined with the promise of low running costs, that when you were going to buy a private car for your wife, or when you retired, it became a no-brainer to continue with another EV so you could enjoy that performance and much cheapness. This is borne out by the discussions about solar panels, storage batteries, periods of electricity being almost free and the elaborate plans some of you come up with to grab as much of that as you can and stuff it into storage batteries, even down to choosing cars with V2G technology to garner more cheapness and now even looking at balcony solar and heat pumps.

Edited 9 hours ago9 hr by Graham Butcher

Home or low tariff charging is damn cheap travelling by car. Simples, and then for Business use there are the saving in Tax to take into account. Simples. Many New BEV,s no matter who bought or owned them are now with others. Bought as 2nd hand / Used / Cherished vehicles. As long as there are First Registered BEV,s there are are growing numbers on the roads or SORN'd / In Trade. Maybe time that SOLAR PANELS discussions and Battery Storage etc and the technicalities had a thread of it's own.

Edited 10 hours ago10 hr by Evolution13

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

No one is denying that there will be many private buyers of EVs, just as no one was actually talking about the numbers of them being company cars until @lol-lol mentioned it.

It is perfectly logical that there would be significant numbers of them in private ownership in the same way as there are loads of diesel cars in private ownership. There are many parallels between them I suspect, and that from the very start there was some private owners who actually chose to have them – yes, that's right, chose.

For many people, the entire debacle of EVs is all about the right to choose, and for many, I suspect that decision was made upon the realisation that there could be much cheapness to be had from home charging and the other aspect that for lots of early adopters, their actual transportation requirements were more about local drives to and from work, shopping, taking kids to school and other such relatively short journeys with the promise of being able to top the battery up to full again overnight.

I seriously doubt that global warming or air quality was uppermost in their minds at the time. When the narrative switched to climate change, I accept that some will have become converts at that point. When the WEF and WHO got behind them, the emphasis suddenly switched, and governments started to encourage businesses to make the switch by way of inducements, just as they did with diesel.

In my own case with diesel, although I had a car shortly after being able to drive legally, I have always had petrol, although there were a few diesel cars around in the 70s, but mainly they were converted to use engines made by Perkins, and they tended in the main to be taxis; there were a few large luxury cars such as Jaguars converted, not for the performance, I add.

My introduction to diesel cars was while I was working for Crabtree Electrical, who switched their fleet over to diesel because the UK government introduced incentives to companies to switch to what was then claimed to be the fuel of the future. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

At that time I was spending 5 days a week driving lots of miles, crisscrossing London to visit electrical consulting companies working on some very interesting projects, and I was impressed by the way that they transformed driving in London's heavy traffic with their low-down grunt, pulling the car along in slow traffic with ease, just by using the clutch only. That first car was a Vauxhall Cavalier, and I became hooked on diesel from then on.

Now I fully expect that the lion's share of people on this forum who have EVs as their own private transportation share the same route, starting with their companies either adopting electric for their fleets if it suits their needs or via salary sacrifice schemes and lower BIK rates.

Many of you have made no secret of the fact that you love the instant torque that the electric motor gives you and lightning-fast acceleration, allowing all of you to get to the next set of traffic lights or up to 60 mph before any ICE cars. Now I also suspect that many find that aspect so addictive, combined with the promise of low running costs, that when you were going to buy a private car for your wife, or when you retired, it became a no-brainer to continue with another EV so you could enjoy that performance and much cheapness. This is borne out by the discussions about solar panels, storage batteries, periods of electricity being almost free and the elaborate plans some of you come up with to grab as much of that as you can and stuff it into storage batteries, even down to choosing cars with V2G technology to garner more cheapness and now even looking at balcony solar and heat pumps.

Personally am not in favour of banning ICE but emissions must be tightly controlled to bring down the number of shortening of life / death due to vehicle emmissons.

I am quite convinced the ever increasing economic strength of argument EVs will increasingly have companies, drivers etc choose EVs over ICE. No need to outright ban.