@Graham Butcher What have Stellantis / Fiat & the 500 to do with Ford?

Which Ford model, the Puma? Or are we rolling back time again to the good old ICE only Era?

Fiat are bringing back the 500 with a hybrid drivetrain.

Edited 5 November, 20255 Nov by Evolution13

19 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

@Graham Butcher What have Stellantis / Fiat & the 500 to do with Ford?

Which Ford model, the Puma? Or are we rolling back time again to the good old ICE only Era?

Fiat are bringing back the 500 with a hybrid drivetrain.

I edited my original post, the KA and 500 share parts and platforms, Ford have been sharing parts for years, even once with Mazda.

#Memories

Ford & Land Rover, & BMW, & Volvo and on and on.

& Suzuki used Mazda engines and so did Fiat. What a wonderful world.

Mercedes used Renault engines.

Turning back time. Here we are in the Electric Vehicle section talking about discontinued models again.

Edited 5 November, 20255 Nov by Evolution13

Not intentionally, just making the point that the new Capri is not the only time they partnered with other carmakers.

Nissan Micra ev Renault 4 ev and renault 5 ev share platform

Renault megane Nissan Ariya

Hyundai ionic 5 and Kia ev6

Peugeot e208 Alfa romeo junior ev Vauxhall Mokka e DS3

They all do it to save money and time

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, I think the pop yellow appears to be the best colour for the Renault 5, which also has some very good throwbacks to the original 5, which is good, not like the dreadful Capri.

I have to change my Renault 5 to Yellow as the pop green i was due to get was found be damaged at the import centre. Did not want to have the yellow which attracts an £800 premium but that was only choice to get about sams time as Zie going back. Picking up next Wednesday and Zie going back to Renault on the Thursday.

15 hp less than the Zoe but torque per kilowatt similar so acceleration similar. Bit less range than the Zoe. Two thirds of the price the Zoe was 4 years ago.

No Google inbuilt on the Evolution model i am getting so will use Andoid auto. No Reno assist I expect which reminds of that annoying paperclip figure with MS Windows

No rear camera, just beep beep. Looking for aftermarket arm rest but have order after market cup holders. No stupid 5 bar charge indicator on the bonnet either. Still gets the 10 inch infotainment screen. Looking forward to trying it on the twisties with its multilink suspension.

Twinge launch very soon but RHD versions sound like a good year away !

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by lol-lol

If the green is damaged, then surely they should give you the yellow FOC, it was under Renault stewardship that it was damaged, are they charging you the extra?

Have you got the two-tone interior and is it right that you only get that in the front?

I have that in my last 3 cars, I think it makes the interior more of a welcoming place to be and gives the car a light airy feel, and I also have had the same exterior colour, although, the last 2 cars was more by luck being secondhand, the first was new (company car) and I was able to spec it right up, even had TV built in as well.

Does it have sat nav, or is that also via android auto?

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

If the green is damaged, then surely they should give you the yellow FOC, it was under Renault stewardship that it was damaged, are they charging you the extra?

Have you got the two-tone interior and is it right that you only get that in the front?

I have that in my last 3 cars, I think it makes the interior more of a welcoming place to be and gives the car a light airy feel, and I also have had the same exterior colour, although, the last 2 cars was more by luck being secondhand, the first was new (company car) and I was able to spec it right up, even had TV built in as well.

Does it have sat nav, or is that also via android auto?

I tried all sorts but they were steadfast. I got discount which Renault have instructed not to give on the R5 as hey are in such demand. Tried to say I will have the Pop Green with the damaged rear bumper and the local dealer can fix but no joy. There is a claim against the shipping company presumably, thankful not us as we move about 4m finished cars a year but don't do this little run from Dieppe to Portbury Bristol.

Same seats in terms of build as the Techno and Iconic but a simply two tune dark rather than the yellowy seats. I, and my son, would only get chocolate or similar on the seats so safer bet with dark than the yellow.

No in-built Google maps etc so just auto-link to Android Auto. Frankly have both the phone Google and the car Google running at the same time is a pain as switch from one to another, as I do in the Scenic, and it wipes the journey in the other system. Each system has their advantages. In theory the car google estimates battery SOC at arrival but it is so over estimating on power use it is worse than useless. Should be able to precondition battery but again never had that work properly and generally I think it is just a waste of energy unless you are in very cold climates and need to charge early in the journey which should be between rare and never for me with the R5.

Came across this video which is so funny and harps back to the early noughties Ali G video with the body kitted original R5. Promoting Reggie Land rather than the Renault 5. Has to be yellow, no matter what the cost and should get in back as will probably keep the R5 for the next decade or two. Renault's natural colour is yellow like Skoda is green IMO.

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by lol-lol

EV and ICE versions same range?

51 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

EV and ICE versions same range?

Interesting car, but it does highlight the issues that I have, its not a small car when it comes to its footprint, but there is no way that the car would be suitable for the taller driver with equally taller passengers, i.e., me and my family who are all 6ft 4" tall, apart from SWMBO.

The charging capability is going to demand a very strong grid supply and of course a charger capable of delivering 320KW, not exactly that common, currently.

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by Graham Butcher

It seems to be highly likely that the much talked about PPM scheme is going to be introduced after all in 2028, so that should no longer be the realms of tin foil hat wearers because like many of the other "conspiracy" theories is almost certainly going to become a reality for the EV owner/drivers first, but it will trickle down to all cars ice or EV in time I expect.

EV drivers could face new pay per mile tax in Budget - BBC News

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by Graham Butcher

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It seems to be highly likely that the much talked about PPM scheme is going to be introduced after all in 2028, so that should no longer be the realms of tin foil hat wearers because like many of the other "conspiracy" theories is almost certainly going to become a reality for the EV owner/drivers first, but it will trickle down to all cars ice or EV in time I expect.

EV drivers could face new pay per mile tax in Budget - BBC News

No details how this could work.

Torygraph speculation without substance as usual.

We will find out for sure real soon.

Could it be? There say no fire without smoke and there does seem to be a hell of a lot of smoke, so it is a leak or what? One thing is for sure, whatever it is going to be, it will be loaded towards the average person who can't avoid it.

Reeves expected to introduce pay-per-mile charge for electric cars | Regit

Pay-per-mile tax explained: How does road pricing work, is it a 'fair' system and what could it do to EV demand? | This is Money

Pay-per-mile road tax coming to the UK with EVs to foot the bill | Auto Express

Pay-Per-Mile Road Tax UK 2025: What EV Drivers Need to Know | The Electric Car Scheme

Reeves poised to unveil Budget plan for EV drivers to pay per mile charges

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by Graham Butcher

Those using Public Charging are already paying 20% VAT on anything from 16 pence to 100 pence a kWh including the VAT.

Then there are those business users that can reclaim the VAT, & the people already well taxed on income that have to just suck it up out of there income after tax. Same as buying liquid fuel really.

Exactly, but since when has any form of tax been fair?

@Graham Butcher We know who wants & imposed the Mandates on less emission vehicles.

It is one thing the Tax & Duty on liquid transport fuel and maybe some cheap and some like on motorways expensive, maybe 25% difference.

Yes there are vehicles more economic using fuel than others.

But we are talking 20% VAT on Electricity bought at public chargers with a price difference of 80 pence or more a kWh.

Then there are more efficient BEV,s and less efficient. So like ICE vehicles.

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by Evolution13

As always, devil is in the details........ and there isn't any yet.

Introduction of general PPM for all cars? May be adjustment to fuel duty to compensate? (eg. make 5p fuel duty discount permanent, move it to 3p per mile)
I whole heartedly agree. There's a perceived tax hole need plugging.

For EV only? Against this idea, it doesn't incentivise people at all.

For EV only AND 5p fuel duty discount still in place? GTFO

One thing is for 100% certain, EV mileage reporting wouldn't be done via AC charge points. Simply because it is not possible, hardware isn't there.

@Evolution13 and @wyx087 there are basically three things in common with the reports I linked to, EVs only, 3p per mile and 2028 when it is supposed to be in effect. I suspect that the thinking behind it is based on the premise that most people would be home charging for the lions share of their energy and thus enjoying much cheapness over an ICE, all the while not paying any fuel duty. The 20% VAT on public charging is still not paying fuel duty, as ICE drivers actual pay fuel duty and 20% VAT on the duty as well.

Correct, the devil is in the detail, and with the level of discussion surrounding this PPM, I suspect that it is based around a leaked document, and this was first talked about a few years ago by certain YouTubers and motoring journalists, but so far precise details are missing as to exactly how this will be implemented.

When it is finally brought in for all cars, I seriously doubt fuel duty will be reduced, but kept there as an extra lever to try to encourage ICE drivers over to electric, but hopefully there will be more clarification on 26th November.

Edited 6 November, 20256 Nov by Graham Butcher

59 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@Evolution13 and @wyx087 there are basically three things in common with the reports I linked to, EVs only, 3p per mile and 2028 when it is supposed to be in effect. I suspect that the thinking behind it is based on the premise that most people would be home charging for the lions share of their energy and thus enjoying much cheapness over an ICE, all the while not paying any fuel duty. The 20% VAT on public charging is still not paying fuel duty, as ICE drivers actual pay fuel duty and 20% VAT on the duty as well.

Correct, the devil is in the detail, and with the level of discussion surrounding this PPM, I suspect that it is based around a leaked document, and this was first talked about a few years ago by certain YouTubers and motoring journalists, but so far precise details are missing as to exactly how this will be implemented.

When it is finally brought in for all cars, I seriously doubt fuel duty will be reduced, but kept there as an extra lever to try to encourage ICE drivers over to electric, but hopefully there will be more clarification on 26th November.

I was reading some of this guesswork and it is hypothesised that it will include those hybrids with significant EV range. Presumably those newer ones that can do over 100 kms on lecky as they would get whacked too, presumably as a percentage they would be reckoned to run on lecky rather than that excise duty ICE power.

Well in 20 days time, we will all know the truth, but we already know in our hearts that the lost income would have to be made up in some form or other as the generated income from fuel duty was essential to keep the government services running and that the cracks were already beginning to show.

Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch, it has to be paid for eventually.

51 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well in 20 days time, we will all know the truth, but we already know in our hearts that the lost income would have to be made up in some form or other as the generated income from fuel duty was essential to keep the government services running and that the cracks were already beginning to show.

Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch, it has to be paid for eventually.

Happy to pay a fair share and am proud to be British with a Free at point of need NHS, a not too bad road network and numerous other niceties living in the UK.

The two NI cuts the Conservatives made last year were so wrong giving most money to the already well off.

Not even sure that the new EV grants are even really needed. £1500 off would not have been make or break getting the Renault 5 to me or most others I suspect.

Wonder how the Heat Pump grant is being taken up as that is much bigger by comparison at £7500.

We have reached the stage where EVs sell themselves on a running cost basis. The future taxation of UK vehicles is uncertain but me and other EV users, I suspect and have heard in a few cases, have no issue as paying the standard chunk of road tax like everyone else. Our reason for having EVs is the very cheap cost per mile, home charging advantage accepted, low servicing costs as well our own wish to be green in not consuming fuel to drive or in servicing procedures.

We will always consider all the options available and one T Rex in the room is that less and less people will actually buy, own cars but we will, I believe, increasingly use taxis, hire cars etc. My acquisition of a car for myself next week ie the R5, and the Scenic last year, may well be the last cars I actually obtain for myself to sit on the drive 99% of the time and only be used very occasionally now and then. Not very far away, I think, from a car that self drives itself from the hire company. Love "I robot", a worry this could be the future.......

They are more costly pence per mile for energy buying electric at public chargers to get Rapid or Ultra Rapid charging than an ICE vehicle.

That is when you get to about 60 pence a kWh or more including VAT & maybe nothing like 4.5-6 miles a kWh.

This is private users spending their money to fuel the vehicle.

Lets not worry about those with nice Tax Breaks, Salary Sacrifice, cheap home or workplace charging and maybe 5% VAT on the Electricity.

70 pence a kWh.

Edited 7 November, 20257 Nov by Evolution13

1 minute ago, Evolution13 said:

They are more costly pence per mile for energy buying electric at public chargers to get Rapid or Ultra Rapid charging than an ICE vehicle.

That is when you get to about 60 pence a kWh or more including VAT & maybe nothing like 4.5-6 miles a kWh.

This is private users spending their money to fuel the vehicle.

Lets not worry about those with nice Tax Breaks, Salary Sacrifice, cheap home or workplace charging and maybe 5% VAT on the Electricity.

Were hoping for 0% on home electricity, maybe 5% for public charger VAT and perhaps VAT on gas to go to 20% or perhaps an intermediate figure like 8% or 10% or 12.5 % or 15% or 17.5%, all figures that have been used for VAT in the past in the UK.

Edited 7 November, 20257 Nov by lol-lol

Wasn't the VAT one of the great big lies that we were all sold back in 2016?