I was a little bit struck by something when reading about solid state batteries, longer ranges on EV etc.

 

If range is increased by any method other than efficiency, such as higher capacity or new battery technology, how do you charge them?

 

I mean 7kW/hour is fine if your car has a <80kWh capacity and it’s not moving for 12 hours. It’s also fine for short distance top up chargers.

 

However with 4-6 hour cheap windows and many people commuting, what happens if we end up with the promised triple power density? 150kWh batteries to do 500-600 miles sound great, but bar DC charging how do you fill them in a timely fashion?

 

Does anyone else think this is a big problem coming down the line?

Either 3 phase at home or work (22 kWh) or DC.

 

In reality not many people will need to add more than you can charge in the 4 - 5hrs cheap rate for private mileage, if you do then you will need to suck it up and charge the extra at your normal tariff rate.

 

28 kWh (4 hours X 7 kWh) will give you at least 85 miles even in winter (driven normally, more if you drive economically)

On a long trip and using the cars range, maybe needing to charge before going further / home &  if you do not have a 100 or 150 kW charger available but only a 50 kWh and you get only 33 kWh topped up in 60 minutes then that is what you get.

 

If you are getting 3 miles to a kWh then that is just about 100 miles topped up in an hour.

 

On a 7 kWh charger if you get 6.6 kWh of a charge in an hour and getting only 3 miles per kWh then you are just adding about 20 miles in an hour.

 

5.6 kWh of a charge in 55 minutes this morning on a 7kWh charger in an air temp of 0*oC.

The local 50kWh chargers will just top up the battery about 33kWh in 60 minutes and there are not 100kWh chargers within 15 miles.

35 miles to a 350 kWh charger.

 

Top 2 are PodPoint 7kWh charging.

Bottom a PodPoint 50 kWh 26 pence a kWh and 39 minutes to near top up and that was only 21.21 kWh added. 

If the battery had been lower at start of charge it would have taken in more,

 

3 miles x 21.21 kWh = 64 miles ish for £5.51  Bargain.

4 miles X is 85 ish.      Real bargain. 

 

Paying 44-50 pence a kWh then less so,

and if paying 69 pence like at Ionity with no special pricing then about the same cost as petrol / diesel.

21.21 @ 69 pence kWh £14.64.

 

No idea how long the Grey ID.4 might sit charging at the free kWH charger but i sometimes see bigger battery cars sitting all day and overnight which is a PITA really with only 4 chargers available locally.

The KIA's that are parked up and left as the drivers walk off or get collected & charge for a long time could easily just park up at the nearby KIA Dealership and charge rather than blocking others from these.

 

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

54 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I was a little bit struck by something when reading about solid state batteries, longer ranges on EV etc.

 

If range is increased by any method other than efficiency, such as higher capacity or new battery technology, how do you charge them?

 

I mean 7kW/hour is fine if your car has a <80kWh capacity and it’s not moving for 12 hours. It’s also fine for short distance top up chargers.

 

However with 4-6 hour cheap windows and many people commuting, what happens if we end up with the promised triple power density? 150kWh batteries to do 500-600 miles sound great, but bar DC charging how do you fill them in a timely fashion?

 

Does anyone else think this is a big problem coming down the line?

It will make the demand on the most rapid chargers at e.g. motorway service areas, especially on 'big' holiday routes and days, extremely high.

 

I wonder if the M5 services at Taunton Deane will need their own 400kV 'super grid' connection?

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by PetrolDave

My view is that increased power density will lead to lighter and more efficient cars. If the batteries are physically smaller, smaller cars become practical. 

 

I think 300-400 miles of range is plenty and making the car's smaller, lighter and so more efficient will be the way things go. If they can get 5 miles/kWh efficiency then 50-80 kWh batteries are all that's needed.

That is where the 28kWh battery Hyundai Ioniq is winning really.

After the posts on here including from me i have been asking people with them how they like and they have them as keepers.

One lady got rid of her almost new BMW i3 to buy an older Ionity and she was loving it.  Her husband had a Audi e-Tronic but would borrow her car for local stuff.

 

Nothing is a lovely cost for energy if you can get that.

 

 

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

IMO the 4hr cheap slot will effectively disappear over the next 18 months, maybe sooner. Domestic prices will soon be 30+ pence/kwh starting April and will march continually upward at well above inflation if gov insist on Net zero policy.

 

Free or cheap public charging will also disappear.

 

Its about time the UK recognise the damage heavier cars do to infrastructure, the environment and peoples health.  A weight based tax is already used in the Netherlands I believe

22 minutes ago, xman said:

IMO the 4hr cheap slot will effectively disappear over the next 18 months, maybe sooner. Domestic prices will soon be 30+ pence/kwh starting April and will march continually upward at well above inflation if gov insist on Net zero policy.

Agree with weight based taxation. But I'm afraid you won't be seeing cheaper off-peak prices disappear. Net-zero policy is the exact policy that drives these cheaper periods. As we adopt more and more renewables on the grid, we need more and more demand to be non-time-dependent. Meaning the demand cannot be like oven or kettles, it need to be able to soak up cheap/excess newable independent of usage time.

 

So as example, if we install more wind, overnight cheap periods will be even cheaper. If we install more solar, mid-day cheap period will appear. If we get both done, morning + evening will become super expensive periods, other times cheap periods.

 

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

However with 4-6 hour cheap windows and many people commuting, what happens if we end up with the promised triple power density? 150kWh batteries to do 500-600 miles sound great, but bar DC charging how do you fill them in a timely fashion?

Commuting 500 miles on a daily basis is very extreme.......

 

I've talked about this before. Vast majority of people don't need to refill their battery 0-100% overnight. Driveway charging only need to re-charge the daily range.

For example, despite only have 3 kW charger on my car, I can take 2 nights to fully recharge my Leaf in the super cheap 4 hour slot. One night 0-80%, drive a bit and then next night 30-100%.

 

Road-side charging would be different, but you are unlikely to be limited by cheap tariffs, you are more likely to pay a flat rate and often more expensive than domestic price unfortunately.

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by wyx087

The Majority might not have to care but those Commercial Travellers / Business Users that are getting the 'big leg up financially' to use EV's and even if they are big heavy ones do need the Quick Charging Infrastructure.

The UK is quite a long place South to North / North to South.

 

Examples of drivers going to and from the Central Belt of Scotland & South is one thing but the Central Belt of Scotland from Edinburgh across to Glasgow is not that far up Scotland from the border with England. There is more than 3/4's up Scotland of travelling distance just on the mainland.

 

Leisure / Pleasure / Holidaying travels in EV's need charging on routes and will be paying with their own hard earned and taxed incomes at places where 

Business users will be paying the same charge to charge but not personally. 

 

Scotland with lots of renewables and electricity generated that should be getting used needs 100 plus kWh chargers North of Perth and not just TESLA Superchargers. That is not only on the A9 / A90 or trunk routes. Those are also needed though.

 

It is reduction in private car use that the Government want but they are really not helping to reduce city congestion by encouraging business users into low or nil emission vehicles that are big with big batteries if they are not doing long distance journeys but only short ones, local use, home to office and back or scooting about during work hours in urban or suburban areas.

EV's and Hybrids. 

 

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

That is where the 28kWh battery Hyundai Ioniq is winning really.

 

Agreed. Another example would be the VW e-Up! The original car came with an 18 kWh battery and was good for 80-100 miles, ideal for a city commuter. A few years later improved battery tech meant they could fit 34 kWh battery for the same space and weight. Suddenly you have a car good for 160 to 200 miles and up is a viable car for longer journeys. 

 

This is what improved battery tech should lead to in my opinion, good range in small packages.  Less weight and materials leading to improved efficiency and thus improved range. Alongside improved charging speeds, this will make long distance travel viable in quite modestly priced EVs.

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by Luckypants
spelling

Less weight and better efficiency are good, but as an example my daily commute for 2 years required 30-40L of diesel every day.

 

Approx 350 miles or 175 miles each way, it should be easy with workplace chargers. As they don’t exist it becomes very hard.

 

It all comes down to infrastructure, because if I have to fill up say 200 miles overnight it works. If I have to fill up 400 it doesn’t.

 

If solid state batteries hold 3 times the capacity, the giving a car a 150kWh in a package the same size/weight as a 50-60kWh battery is great. It will help, but you still need to get 150kWh into it somehow.

 

FWIW most people in my industry see 200-300 mile journey as normal and 500-600 in a day as long. We don’t get it paid for, just a flat 5p for electric. Better than nothing of course, but you can’t just use ultra rapid DC for 30 minutes at high prices.

Edited 7 February, 20224 yr by cheezemonkhai

It is simple really and some people should not yet get an EV and especially if they might need to do towing over longer distances. 

 

There are not enough charge points suitable for taking in a longer vehicle with something long being towed. 

So we're back at infrastructure will cripple the electric vehicle if they don't get on with it ASAP.

 

I think for freight/trains/smaller towing fuel cells will likely come into their own, however the infrastructure problems there are a whole other level of bad.

The big decision is can you be bothered with the faf, the constant messing about and having to allow so much extra time for trips because of the unknowns over and above traffic / weather etc.

It can be a total PITA if on your own and with others in the vehicle just horrible really unless everybody is really really chilled and pleased the trip is saving money over being in an ICE vehicle.   If it is saving money with so many stops and maybe muchie buying.

 

 

A Briskoda members video / experience.     Charging at Ionity is great if all is working with a good charge speed and you have a nice tariff available to you.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

When I got my VW card, 46p at Ionity seemed expensive but as prices have risen due to the 'energy shock' it seems more reasonable for rapid charging. Gridserve 39p, Osprey 40p, Instavolt 45p, VW Ionity price 46p. Never needed to use any rapid charge in anger yet, but hope to do so in a couple of weeks with a trip to the Borders.

 

 

On 06/02/2022 at 12:59, xman said:

IMO the 4hr cheap slot will effectively disappear over the next 18 months, maybe sooner. Domestic prices will soon be 30+ pence/kwh starting April and will march continually upward at well above inflation if gov insist on Net zero policy.

 

 

Nevermind loosing the 4hr cheap slot, what about when they introduce the horrendously expensive slots at peak times!!!!!

 

We should thankful we still have a lot of flexible Gas Generation (including the most efficient CCGT in the world)

7 hours ago, SuperbTWM said:

Nevermind loosing the 4hr cheap slot, what about when they introduce the horrendously expensive slots at peak times!!!!!

We should thankful we still have a lot of flexible Gas Generation (including the most efficient CCGT in the world)

 

Greg Jackson. Octopus Go tariff was increased from 4 hours to 5 hours and done so at the end of the night period so the battery warming through charging and preconditioning the cabin can happen as late as 0530 rather than 0430 previously.

 

Many people in the UK are reacting to the slightly higher day time charges ie 25/26p per kwh is currently I gather the typical cost of a kwh of electricity by installing typically up to about 20 large solar panels on their roof that I can see around here ie have the potential generation of up to 9 kws and some have gone for storage batteries and some just export to the grid at the 15p per kwh they can get.  Yes cost them thousands of investment but there seems hundreds of thousands of households willing to do this.

 

I dont know how much longer I am going to stay in my current house so gone down a bit of a different route.  So I have portable batteries "aka" solar generators and portable solar panels.  One can get solar batteries at less than 17p per wh ie 2400 wh for less than £400 and 100 watt solar panels for less than £40 ie 40 p per watt of max generation.  Still benefit from the 5 hours of very cheap lecky, currently and in to Q1 of 2025 at 8.5 p per kwh, including the 5% VAT.

 

If lecky at night rate did look like moving up to the Day time rate, no sign of it yet as Night time rate actually stayed where is has been rather than going up at all like single rate and the day time GO rate, then I would just buy so more portable batteries and more solar panels so I can both generate more and store more.  This is the way that the market is  working both fixed battery and solar panels and portable ones and both techs have prices falling at a very steep rate ie about a quarter to a half year on year.  

 

I think more the problem, and we see this in Australia, Germany, Spain and the US etc is that the amount of lecky being bought from the grid, by whole chucks of the population, are reducing so much that some of these countries are introducing a hefty standing charge like the UK has ie about £20 or £25 a month as they are making so little money from the lecky sales that they feel they have to have a substantial fixed charge to maintain the grid supply. All well Martin Lewis and others moaning about standing charge but the real cost of supplying a reliable supply is not cheap ie billions of pounds/$ of infrastructure required.

 

The beauty of electricity, over gas, petrol, fuel oil, coal etc is that there is now, in 2024 and onwards, not a huge cost or problem generating and storing one's own lecky and choosing to not take it from the Grid.

 

Edited 30 December, 20241 yr by lol-lol

I feel lucky to have been able to get my tariff fixed for 12 months, and that was a couple of months after i had fixed it at a slightly higher tariff.

I do not have a home charger and am using the 3 pin cable so empty to full takes 2 nights of charging at least if also using it. 

i get 16 kW/h in during the 7 hours of off-peak and the standard if i need to get more is still cheaper than any public chargers near.

The car has only a 32.9 kW/h battery.

 

eon next.

7 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

I think more the problem, and we see this in Australia, Germany, Spain and the US etc is that the amount of lecky being bought from the grid, by whole chucks of the population, are reducing so much that some of these countries are introducing a hefty standing charge like the UK has ie about £20 or £25 a month as they are making so little money from the lecky sales that they feel they have to have a substantial fixed charge to maintain the grid supply. All well Martin Lewis and others moaning about standing charge but the real cost of supplying a reliable supply is not cheap ie billions of pounds/$ of infrastructure required.

 

 

The problem is that the margins on the grid are so tight because we rely on that much wind that when its not windy all the efficient gas stations and old Nuclear are at full capacity and we have to start calling for small open cycle gas generation and diesel engines. Some days our old CCGT can make millions of pounds for the same generation as they made the previous day for 50K. 

 

The flip side of that is when we have sold power and have an unexpected excess of wind, power generators still get paid to generate nothing. There is also a balance between renewables and having inirtia on the grid for stability and frequency response. Something we never had to worry about when we had 20 or 30 odd 500MW Coal powered units on the bars.

 

All of the above, and all the other investment into carbon capture and other means of cleaning up fossil fuels means £££££££ for the consumer

 

 

Cleaning up the Old Nuclear is costing £Billions, and there are many more to be cleaned up taking many decades and it will not be EDF or others making the money now paying for the clean up. 

2 hours ago, SuperbTWM said:

The problem is that the margins on the grid are so tight because we rely on that much wind that when its not windy all the efficient gas stations and old Nuclear are at full capacity and we have to start calling for small open cycle gas generation and diesel engines. Some days our old CCGT can make millions of pounds for the same generation as they made the previous day for 50K. 

The flip side of that is when we have sold power and have an unexpected excess of wind, power generators still get paid to generate nothing. There is also a balance between renewables and having inirtia on the grid for stability and frequency response. Something we never had to worry about when we had 20 or 30 odd 500MW Coal powered units on the bars.

All of the above, and all the other investment into carbon capture and other means of cleaning up fossil fuels means £££££££ for the consumer

 

Fortunately for the UK we have super large wind farms coming on stream for the massive North Sea projects and many large scale battery peaker plants coming online to take the place of gas peaker plants. We still have Dinorwig hydro-plant and it is looking like the Scottish Great Glen plant will get built and that is more than 3 times the size of Dinorwig. 

 

All this whilst increasing number of UK homes are becoming self sufficient for large parts of the year.  

 

Looking forward to shaving more and more with free electricity sessions with Octopus and considerably increasing my battery storage via something like the Allpower R4000, below vid........ 

 

 

• 4000W to Power 11 Devices Simultaneously] - 4 AC ports with a wattage of up to 4000W, 2 USB-C charging ports, 4 USB-A ports, and 1 car outlets power almost all your devices at once.
• [Remarkly Fast Recharge & 5 Ways to Charge] - Thanks to our proprietary AP-POWER technology, ALLPOWERS R4000 can be charged from 0 to 100% in just 1 hour by EV station charging & solar or wall outlets & solar together, faster than any other solar generator. Also you can charge from EV station charging, solar or wall outlets.
• [Unique Voice Control, Smart Wifi / Bluetooth Control Function] - The world's first voice control system makes the operation more intelligent. Easily realized by connecting to ALLPOWERS APP through WIFI Power Monitoring/Function Setting/Remote Control/System Upgrade.
• [Long Lasting LiFePO4 Battery] - Combined with LiFePO4 batteries, ultra-durable electronic components, ALLPOWERS R4000 gets 3500+ full cycles to last for years.

53 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Fortunately for the UK we have super large wind farms coming on stream for the massive North Sea projects and many large scale battery peaker plants coming online to take the place of gas peaker plants. We still have Dinorwig hydro-plant and it is looking like the Scottish Great Glen plant will get built and that is more than 3 times the size of Dinorwig. 

 

All this whilst increasing number of UK homes are becoming self sufficient for large parts of the year.  

 

Looking forward to shaving more and more with free electricity sessions with Octopus and considerably increasing my battery storage via something like the Allpower R4000, below vid........ 

 

 

 

 

SSE have built the largest on-shore and off-shore wind farms in England and yet they still have plans in place for more gas and potentially Hydrogen powered generators so the future can't be that bright for energy storage.

 

I watched the first 20 seconds of that video where apparently the UK has only 1 Nuclear powerstation that took 16 years to build?? what a tool.

 

 

21 hours ago, SuperbTWM said:

Nevermind loosing the 4hr cheap slot, what about when they introduce the horrendously expensive slots at peak times!!!!!

 

We should thankful we still have a lot of flexible Gas Generation (including the most efficient CCGT in the world)

I don't foresee people being forced into expensive peak slot tariff. The same price all throughout the day flat tariff will always continue.

 

But as more people move to time-of-use tariff (or even type of use tariff), I think we'll see those flat rate tariff becoming more and more expensive, as more and more of the tariff comes from expensive periods, pushing up its average.

 

Electricity energy storage is moving at a staggering rate. Of course there is still place for more fossil fuel stations right now, but keeping it running will only mean more money wasted on carbon capture in when net zero goals come knocking. I personally don't think those plants will be financially viable once storage capacity hits a threshold.

3 hours ago, SuperbTWM said:

 

SSE have built the largest on-shore and off-shore wind farms in England and yet they still have plans in place for more gas and potentially Hydrogen powered generators so the future can't be that bright for energy storage.

 

I watched the first 20 seconds of that video where apparently the UK has only 1 Nuclear powerstation that took 16 years to build?? what a tool.

 

There will be moments where the sun and wind are insufficient and Dinorwig is only meant to cover daily fluctuations. The Great Glen project will help with more like weekly smoothing.

 

Hinckley Point C will provide quite a contribution to Base Load.

 

In Spring, Summer and Autumn more than a million homes's solar will help and we can expect more business buildings and companies exporting to the the Grid.

 

Whilst country to country interconnectors are providing good supply. The 1.4 GW interconnector with Norway seems to run flat out all the time.

 

Be interesting to see if the proposed interconnector to Morocco gets done. Long route but should be a solid contribution.  We should expect the French connectors also to be a good constant supply as they supply from their nuclear base loads and increase solar and wind to complement the UKs rapidly expanding off shore and on shore wind plus home generation as it is so cheap to do.