On 30/08/2022 at 00:11, Graham Butcher said:

On 29/08/2022 at 22:56, J.R. said:

Batteryman says:

 

You have to look after the battery (how? 🥴) you should give it a proper long, low, slow recharge, preferably off the car and in a more even controlled temperature if possible.

 

Not looking after your battery will  make the charging system work harder and the VW computer programs will make you suffer in all sorts of ways.

 

Just driving is not enough...............

 

You have been warned 😳

 

 

Expand  

Surely disconnecting the battery is not a good thing to do for the time it takes to carry out a low level charge, all the control units on the car will complain that they have been lost power and the dash will awash with error lights and error messages on the dot matrix display.

 

It was a jibe aimed at someone else not yourself, reading through this thread it wont be hard to guess who has earned the nickname.

On 29/08/2022 at 21:56, nta16 said:

Driving the vehicle doesn't really recharge the battery if it is (very/too) low, if you've not recharged your battery with a battery recharger then 12.12v is (for the sake of a figure) only 50% charged so well worth recharging with a charger before getting into greater battery use with approaching cooler/colder/wetter shorter days.  The lower your battery the more work your car's charging system has to do so more wear on it and potentially less mpg.

 

Your thread prompted me to put up a thread I'd been thinking about posting.

 

Yesterday I tried to revive a car battery for our next door neighbour and initially it seemed to charge well but it didn't hold its charge so a new battery had to be ordered, he flogged it too much, had he said something a back I may have been able to get his battery to last another year or two whilst he looks to replace the car (non-start stop).

 

   

Well, I'd love to see just how you would have stood the test of time in my shoes, as already mentioned, I'm a retired auto electrical engineer and as such at one time, I was looking after over 200 buses and coaches and hardly ever had any battery issues with them, and they were never ever put on charge. I had a dozen huge 6V batteries in my workshop with a large industrial battery charger which got switched on about 4 times a year to just top up those batteries in case they were called upon. I do recall having to go out to rescue a bus however on one occasion that the conductor said was causing his eyes to stream and also some of the passengers. On that particular type of bus, the batteries were housed under the staircase, inside the bus, and boy the conductor was not exaggerating, it stung my eyes as well when I walked into the bus to see what was happening. The 24V alternator was overcharging them and the cells were boiling hot. I had to open all the windows and doors on the bus and then wait for the wind blowing through to dispel the fumes and cool the batteries down enough so that I could then start the engine and disconnect a battery without risk of them blowing up in my face if the spark drawn ignited the hydrogen gas, and drive the bus back to the garage for repairs and a new set of batteries fitted along with a replacement alternator. That's an advantage with diesels, once started they didn't really on having battery power to keep them running.

On 30/08/2022 at 12:12, Graham Butcher said:

@varooom I'll try that out later after I get back from a trip I need to make.

I never did the  test of disconnecting that plug, I undid the locking mechanism but was unable to extract the actual plug, as I'm not aware of the precise way to disconnect it, I decided not to force it as I need the car to be working and it's going in the garage on Monday anyway.

Graham I've not stood the test of my own time very well let alone anyone else's.

 

I think we can agree buses and coaches and their use is a bit different to the average car use, which is often used just for two journeys a day many hours apart, sometimes on very short journeys with all sorts of electric devices used on the car whilst it's going along and then when parked up engine off.

 

If your battery monitoring lead connector is like the one on my wife's car then like many of the other little plastic wire connects on the car they can be awkward to part but those used to it do it so easily on the videos they make you can't see what they actually done.

 

But - here's a challenge for you, even a clumsy idiot like me did manage to disconnect it on my wife's car (second attempt) and I did need to hold my nerve as it didn't exactly just fall apart.

 

See lifted photos from elsewhere.

 

 

No, you clearly don't have the first clue about buses and how they operate. They are used on relatively short runs from one side of town to the other, maybe 4 or 5 miles with a stop at each end of about 10 to 15 minutes with the engine off but with the vehicle lights and the interior lights always on at nighttime and the destination boards or blinds always switched on as well. This means that their usage is even harder on batteries than a car is, and those engines really do take a massive amount of grunt to start. They are typically 10.5 litres, 150HP, yep that's correct with a really massive compression ratio compared to say a petrol car engine. Add in the fact that a typical bus is doing that for 10 hours a day and if it is a 30 minutes schedule, that makes the number of starts in an hour 3 at least. And for something like a white van doing home deliveries, many times more than that, remember it is illegal to leave a engine running on the road without a drive in the driver's seat. Using the analogy that use, there must come a point in a day that the van just will not start, with many bouts of actual driving being no more than a hundred yards or so.😏

 

Yes that is the type of plug I have on my car, and man oh man, that battery and engine bay is so filthy and with a battery in that state, that muck and bullets is actually conductive on the battery and will certainly drain a battery, so come on battery man, clean that battery at least if not the rest of your wifes engine bay 😆

😆 Yeah I should have separated out the first sentence, I put my hands up you got me.

 

Sort of drifting off trying to help you, if you'd sooner just report that's fine, not here to point score - if I was I'd have to look at a draw as I can disconnect the battery monitor connector.  🤣

 

I do know a very little about buses as I live close to a bus route and occasionally use them, regularly in the past.  Even have weekends away, with others, on a 1961 Bristol single-decker, Gardner 7l, 5, 82(?)hp IIRC, just as a passenger, though my wife's driven it from one village to another.  24v.  The air-con was on this summer - windows open.

 

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

that battery and engine bay is so filthy and with a battery in that state, that muck and bullets is actually conductive on the battery and will certainly drain a battery, so come on battery man, clean that battery at least if not the rest of your wifes engine bay 😆

5 hours ago, nta16 said:

See lifted photos from elsewhere.

😁 I also wouldn't overtighten the post clamp nuts.  That battery was almost spotless compared to my neighbour's and his engine bay, I had to clean the battery just to get the extra weight off it so I could lift it with my feeble arms (shoulders and chest muscle groups).

 

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

and with a battery in that state, that muck and bullets is actually conductive on the battery and will certainly drain a battery,

Be interesting to see if you get ripped for that, I've been scorned for a similar sort  of suggestion.  You might become "Batteryman 2", too.  😆

 

 

   

Edited 1 September, 20223 yr by nta16
spelling

Yep, the Bristol MW is a much lower HP engine than the one I quoted, its a 5 cylinder, 7litre of just 85HP, most cars can beat that for power, but they can't match get anywhere near it for sheer pulling power. It has a long stroke of 6" with a bore of 4.25" and max power is generated at 1,700rpm, but its that sheer grunt that the long stroke gives it that makes it so powerful.

 

The 2 double deckers in these pictures show the type of bus I was talking, the batteries are kept under the stairs in the hand baggage locker area. The coach is my favourite, engine at the rear, slung beneath the chassis like the MW, and those coaches rode on airbags for a super smooth ride with tall gearing, they could really get a move on, 70mph with ease.

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I never did the  test of disconnecting that plug, I undid the locking mechanism but was unable to extract the actual plug, as I'm not aware of the precise way to disconnect it, I decided not to force it as I need the car to be working and it's going in the garage on Monday anyway.

I will save you the effort, of doing it Graham, don't want to break the connector if you are unsure.

 

Effects of signal failure
In the event of a signal failure of the battery sensor,
the operating condition of the battery can no
longer be accurately determined and monitored.
An entry is made in the fault memory of the data
bus diagnostic interface (Gateway) J533. The
START-STOP system is deactivated.

 

So a break in the wire that you was mentioning won't stop the car from starting.

5 minutes ago, varooom said:

I will save you the effort, of doing it Graham, don't want to break the connector if you are unsure.

 

Effects of signal failure
In the event of a signal failure of the battery sensor,
the operating condition of the battery can no
longer be accurately determined and monitored.
An entry is made in the fault memory of the data
bus diagnostic interface (Gateway) J533. The
START-STOP system is deactivated.

 

So a break in the wire that you was mentioning won't stop the car from starting.

Thanks, so that's all good then, its not that I couldn't undo it if I had to, it was that I didn't want to undo it first by trial and error and risk damaging it when the car is in the garage for all of its servicing and MOT first thing Monday morning, that would be a totally insane thing to do.

Now you'll get me in trouble for thread drift - early 1980s, IIRC I had to go to Long Eaton, Nottingham way, and waiting at a bus stop this coach pulled up, bit younger than the one in your photo, I thought how posh for a bus service as I was used to "green" and "red" buses like the ones in your photos and didn't seem younger than those but I think they were driver only by then.

 

 

On 01/09/2022 at 21:16, Graham Butcher said:

its not that I couldn't undo it if I had to, it was that I didn't want to undo it first by trial and error and risk damaging it when the car is in the garage for all of its servicing and MOT first thing Monday morning, that would be a totally insane thing to do.

Ah, the wisdom of age, when you were younger at work you'd have carried on and if you broke it blamed it on something else or the apprentice, unless you were the apprentice at the time and then the buck stopped. 😄

Edited 3 September, 20223 yr by nta16
spelling

Graham, in case I've forgot to put it before - different model but I have seen someone else put where they had problems with the battery monitoring system, some sort of hardware IIRC so ask about that at the Dealership in case there's a known issue or possible fault there.

 

As you know manufacturers are loathed to issues "recalls" or let slip any TSB issues but you could check here generally anyway, if you've not already. - https://www.skoda-auto.com/services/recall-actions

 

And customer use software updates. - https://updateportal.skoda-auto.com/

 

Quick update, car was serviced, brake fluid replaced and also DSG oil changed and MOT done. Charging was briefly tested and confirmed to be working OK according to their tests, However, I raised the question about if a new battery is fitted, that I believe the car's system needs to be programmed with that fact and the battery details inputted.  I was then told, yes that is the case if the battery is a AGM type, which is of course the type fitted to start/stop cars. The dealer is going to look into this very soon and see what difference this makes, as some models have a self learning capabilities and don't need it.

 

More on this as it happens.

Stop start cars can use EFB or AGM, depending on several factors.  Stop start does not automatically equal AGM only.

 

My own car has AGM, but in the parts program, it shows EFB as a possible fitted choice.

 

 

The car would need telling if it has EFB or AGM, and what ratings it has.

 

Not really heard of self-learning, it will remember what is was programmed for, and try to charge accordingly.  That's AFAIK, maybe someone knows different.

I don't know about Graham's model but my wife's Mk3 Fabia and other Fabias and other models I've seen on here had EFB.

 

As I understand it there's no such thing as really self-learning on these cars, bit like Tesla saying their cars are autopilot or whatever marketing phase they've dreamt up, a more computer savvy poster would know and explain better than me.  AFAIK other than the bits owners use in the vehicle like "smart" phones the computer bits that the general car manufacturers use aren't exactly cutting edge.

 

AFAIK if the same type of battery is used as a replacement of the same Ah (or perhaps near enough?) then the car's systems will adjust to the information with use of the car, in other words drive it enough and it will 'learn' the battery has changed in charge at least (otherwise it'd never respond to the existing fitted battery being charged off the car.

 

Edited 8 September, 20223 yr by nta16

Fact of the matter is that the type of battery EFB or AGM is dictated by the size of the car. If you are driving a small or mid-sized car then you are more likely to have a EFB, if you have a large, or premium car than you more likely have a AGM type because of the loading being applied is therefore more likely to be far greater with all the power hungry extras gizmo's fitted to them.

 

My car falls in the latter category and so was fitted as standard with an AGM battery, which lasts typically for anything from 5 to 8 years and has a far larger capacity and can be recharged upto 5 times faster than an EFB.

 

https://www.batteriesplus.com/blog/power/efb-and-agm-batteries

 

https://batteryworld.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/efb-or-agm-which-battery-do-i-need

 

Most places these days use your registration number to determine the make, type, engine size etc of your car. Once your registration plate has been inputted, the system will then automatically select the nearest equivalent item for your car, and this also extended to the cars battery.

21 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Most places these days use your registration number to determine the make, type, engine size etc of your car. Once your registration plate has been inputted, the system will then automatically select the nearest equivalent item for your car, and this also extended to the cars battery.

All databases have errors, best to check and cross reference any information you get.  Some databases wouldn't accept my (now previous) 1973 car's registration, others would.

 

I expect your car is fully loaded with necessary extras on top of the necessary standard extras and necessary standard standard modern essential electric items, must need bigger engine to keep them all running.  I must salute you if you get 8 years out of the battery - or possibly not, perhaps I 'd remove some of the fuses on the more wasteful items.  😉

 

Get yourself a scan tool (with battery coding if you want) and you can then investigate and sort issues for yourself without a garage firing off a parts cannon or guessing at your expense.  You'd soon learn all that you want to about and with the scan tool.

 

57 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Fact of the matter is that the type of battery EFB or AGM is dictated by the size of the car. If you are driving a small or mid-sized car then you are more likely to have a EFB, if you have a large, or premium car than you more likely have a AGM type because of the loading being applied is therefore more likely to be far greater with all the power hungry extras gizmo's fitted to them.

 

My car falls in the latter category and so was fitted as standard with an AGM battery, which lasts typically for anything from 5 to 8 years and has a far larger capacity and can be recharged upto 5 times faster than an EFB.

 

...Snip...

I agree you generally do have bigger capacity AGM, longer life than with EFB types.

 

Here is the VIN decoded results for my own car, the AGM has less Ah than the EFB.

So there are certainly exceptions to the rule.

 

 

If we circle back round to your original fault, then as I mentioned as has at least another person, you did most likely drain too much power from your battery that day.

The car has been fine since, which I said it was likely to be, and you have now had testing done at the dealers and they also pass your battery and charging system.

 

My advice back then is still the same as now, best carry a set of jump leads for a bit, but more than likely not going to be needing them for a while.

Edited 8 September, 20223 yr by varooom

22 minutes ago, nta16 said:

All databases have errors, best to check and cross reference any information you get.  Some databases wouldn't accept my (now previous) 1973 car's registration, others would.

 

I expect your car is fully loaded with necessary extras on top of the necessary standard extras and necessary standard standard modern essential electric items, must need bigger engine to keep them all running.  I must salute you if you get 8 years out of the battery - or possibly not, perhaps I 'd remove some of the fuses on the more wasteful items.  😉

 

Get yourself a scan tool (with battery coding if you want) and you can then investigate and sort issues for yourself without a garage firing off a parts cannon or guessing at your expense.  You'd soon learn all that you want to about and with the scan tool.

 

Yes, my car does indeed have loads of extras, Enhanced stereo system with added power output power, DVD player and TV tuner with surround system, all seats heated, front seats are cooled, electric seat adjustment and memory function, also electric mirrors, also tied in to the memory system, automatic wipers, headlights, Xenon headlights which are also linked to the steering wheel angle, cornering fog / spotlights, heated windscreen, back window, washer jets, headlight washers and mirrors, auto dimming interior and door mirrors, cat vision interior lighting, footwell lighting, puddle lights, every door has door open red lights for traffic approaching from behind, electric radiator cooling fan and also A/C cooling fan, electrical steering and oodles of control units, all talking to each other. So yes, there are loads of extra draw on the battery.

 

I already have a scan tool that can loads of things with the car but not at that kind of level you're talking about, in fact I expect that a tool capable of such advanced functionality is going to be restricted to dealers anyway, or mega expensive and thus not really a viable proposition.

 

As to getting 8 years from a battery, this is something I have not managed to do, the old one did last 7 years, but if you google you find that can done with AGM batteries, also typical last 2 to 3 times longer than an EFB one.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I already have a scan tool that can loads of things with the car but not at that kind of level you're talking about, in fact I expect that a tool capable of such advanced functionality is going to be restricted to dealers anyway, or mega expensive and thus not really a viable proposition.

You might find things have moved on a bit, or quite a bit more than you expect, even the free programs can do a lot, good bi-directional pro level tool are in the low hundreds.  I don't know how much you can buy into with lower packages but I expect its quite a lot for not much money, others would know.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

As to getting 8 years from a battery, this is something I have not managed to do, the old one did last 7 years, but if you google you find that can done with AGM batteries, also typical last 2 to 3 times longer than an EFB one.

The AGM battery on my wife's car should well outlast the car then, going on what I've read on this site IIRC EFB batteries (on lesser cars than yours of course) have lasted longer than 8 years, depends on the user's use and abuse.

 

I can't agree with carrying jump leads or starter packs as I prefer prevention and was from "classic" cars where some felt the need to carry so many spare parts they practically needed to tow of trailer for them.

 

If you don't want to charge the battery, either on or better still off the car then the case is closed until you decide you need to replace the battery again, look for a drain or fault, or reduce your electric use at times, cheers.  😁

 

Edited 8 September, 20223 yr by nta16
spelling

There is no way I'm spending hundreds of £ on a tool that I simply don't need, my scan tool is one that is recommended on this forum and is only 2 years old and is updated each time I log on.

 

I really doubt that a EFB battery will outlast a AGM when all the experts say that AGM one's outlast EFB typical by 3 to 5 times.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

There is no way I'm spending hundreds of £ on a tool that I simply don't need, my scan tool is one that is recommended on this forum and is only 2 years old and is updated each time I log on.

In that case are you sure it doesn't already have the facility to change the battery details, my wife's was done by someone on here with an OBDEleven off one of these "smart" phones.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I really doubt that a EFB battery will outlast a AGM when all the experts say that AGM one's outlast EFB typical by 3 to 5 times.

Yes so do I, what made you think otherwise.

 

Graham was you a union rep or something, or worst still a foreman or manager.  😜

 

On 09/09/2022 at 12:05, nta16 said:

In that case are you sure it doesn't already have the facility to change the battery details, my wife's was done by someone on here with an OBDEleven off one of these "smart" phones.

 

 

Yes so do I, what made you think otherwise.

 

Graham was you a union rep or something, or worst still a foreman or manager.  😜

 

No it doesn't have that capability, it is accessed via a smartphone but its functions are very much limited to the various options built into the cars memory when it was built, things like auto locking of the doors when going faster than 10mph, running lights on/off, folding mirrors type of thing. It does not change the way the system interacts with the ECU's for instance as that is very strictly for the trained professionals rather than the informed amateur.

 

I mentioned the EFB battery because you said "The AGM battery on my wife's car should well outlast the car then, going on what I've read on this site IIRC EFB batteries (on lesser cars than yours of course) have lasted longer than 8 years, depends on the user's use and abuse. " If that happened, it would be a fluke result.

 

And no, I've not been a union rep, or manager etc

I don't have one so don't know, but the likes of varooom and others would know though, I thought even with the cheap use-your-own- "smart"-phone programs like VCDS you could do 'adaptions'(?), data input to me, so that you could change the battery data to tell the computer.

 

OBDeleven I thought was about £100 so not an unreasonable price if you have a "smart" phone but I think even the free VCDS stuff does a (very) lot, don't know about battery coding though.

 

The better scan tools rather than those that are just error code readers can give you lots of information and you don't have to fiddle about with the computer programs' innards unless you need to or want to.

 

If I remembered correctly and they were EFB batteries I don't think it'd be a fluke if lasted more than 8 years more a case of users use and lack of abuse, or perhaps I remembered wrong or perhaps the vehicles weren't start/stop or start/stop wasn't used, though both would come under use of the battery.

 

I've been told of 1950s cars running AGM batteries on alternators and dynamos, I can only take the word though as I've not seen them with my own eyes but I have no reason to doubt the person given their use of the vehicles.

 

OBD2 devices are cheaper than the £100 you seem to think they are, and there is then either a monthly or yearly subscription fee. I use one called Carista https://caristaapp.com/adapter and there is a list of things it can do with a smartphone, depending on the make and model of your car.

 

Trust me, if a EFB battery lasted 8 years it would be a fluke.

 

You put of faith in charging your battery off the car, this is not scientifically proven. A car that is working correctly and driven regularly and is not stopped and started every 2 minutes is all the battery requires. The cars charging system will take care of the battery without any intervention from you, fact.

 

Edited 11 September, 20223 yr by Graham Butcher

Just had a bit of a skim of the thread. I've definitely got experience of vehicles going flat if left not running on SSA for a period of time, rather than being turned off. 

 

The battery voltages do sound a bit weak, it's always worth giving a battery a long, slow trickle charge (1amp or less) if it's looking that way. I'm not great on the science, but it does reach the places a fast charge can't. I've had a few chargers that claim to do all sorts of clever stuff to recondition batteries, but the one thing that works is a really old charger with a 1 amp setting.

 

I've used a little solar charger to bring batteries back up with some really good results, might be an idea if you can't get a mains charger to the car. Personally I'd just run my mains charger out there and put a bit of old carpet or something over the lead.

 

One thing that won't have changed since you were auto-electricianing is this - 9 out of 10 times it's going to be something simple or stupid rather than properly technical. Give your battery terminals a check while you've got the bonnet up.

Edited 11 September, 20223 yr by StevesTruck