help  - I'm an EV ignoramiss so looking for info. from those who know.

 

It's looking likely I'll be keeping my car long-term but just had a 'tyre-kicker' few hours yesterday afternoon to see if there's anything out there that could replace my Kodiaq. I've come across a deal on a XC60 plug-in recharge hybrid thingy that's supposed to return 48miles on battery ( so I'm guessing 40miles real world ).

 

Trying to work out how much those 40 miles will cost. Not sure going to the expense of a wall charger is worth it for such a small battery so it'll be domestic 3 pin plug. ( 29p per kwh ). Looking away from home, the zip map thing says 'free' for most chargers in my area but reading above posts chargeScotland isn't free. The nearest non ChargeScotland branded charger is some BP thingy which says 59p per kwh.

 

So if I were to use that as an example - The car has an 18.8kw battery and charges at 3.5kwh  ( it's an Arnold Clark spec sheet so could be wrong. They've managed to get the car's colour wrong - it's silver, not blue! )

 

Would I be right in saying that from a depleted battery, for my 40 real-world EV miles, it'll take just over 5hr to charge the battery and cost ( 18.8 x 59p )  £11.09 at that BP outlet 🤪   Surely not,

Edited 19 August, 20232 yr by kodiaqsportline

Correct, however IMO you must be mad to use a (paid for) public charging on a hybrid. 
charge it up at home only. 

ZapMap & Plugshare are not always up to date on the Tariffs at chargers that you can pay with your CPS Account or other providers.

http://chargeplacescotland.org

 

 

Home standard tariff.  @ 30 pence a kWh x 18 kWh = £5.40

 

Offpeak @ 7 pence.  x 18 kWh = £1.26

 

Tesco Podpoint 7 kW AC charger is 44 pence a kWh

Lidl   Podpoint 7 kW AC  is 40 pence a kWh.  £7.20.  A gallon of fuel is cheaper.

 

Some public chargers, East or South Ayrshire & elsewhere Free

or 

16 - 41 pence.  (41 pence Angus Council.)

 

Charge Place Scotland if you want a Card and not just use the App is £12.

http://chargeplacescotland.org/charge-point-tariffs

Post Code Lottery as to tariffs but the Hybrid just needs on a 7 / 11 kW AC charger (Called Fast but not fast). Lower Tariffs usually  compared to AC 43 or 50-150 DC Rapid charging.

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

There are BP Pulse chargers like at Edinburgh City Park and rides, but these are Edinburgh City Tariffs on 50 kw Rapids and 55 pence a kWh.

But then that is a max 1 hour charge time.

Use CPS card or App, or Credit card or Debit card, more reliable.

 

A Hybrid / PHEV or BEV can go on the 7 kW AC chargers for 12 hours and it is 35 pence a kWh.

This is the same lots of places in Scotland,  you are not paying the BP Pulse price but the provider / local authorities price so someplaces 

Free charging on 7 kW or 50 kW chargers.

 

 

Edited 19 August, 20232 yr by toot

Chargers filling our EVe are about 90% so 20 kWh from the charger or home lecky system can give 18 kWh of battery charge of there abouts, 3 pin chargers and on-board systems slightly less efficient but not a lot in it.

 

Expensive dc public chargers I only use for 10 or maybe 15 kWh just to get me home with a safe margin.

 

4 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Correct, however IMO you must be mad to use a (paid for) public charging on a hybrid. 
charge it up at home only. 

 

Thanks - I get that but it's a hybrid with a range of approx 40 miles therefore charging away from home would have to be taken in to consideration.

 

 

5 hours ago, toot said:

ZapMap & Plugshare are not always up to date on the Tariffs at chargers that you can pay with your CPS Account or other providers.

http://chargeplacescotland.org

 

 

Home standard tariff.  @ 30 pence a kWh x 18 kWh = £5.40

 

Offpeak @ 7 pence.  x 18 kWh = £1.26

 

Tesco Podpoint 7 kW AC charger is 44 pence a kWh

Lidl   Podpoint 7 kW AC  is 40 pence a kWh.  £7.20.  A gallon of fuel is cheaper.

 

Some public chargers, East or South Ayrshire & elsewhere Free

or 

16 - 41 pence.  (41 pence Angus Council.)

 

etc....

 

 

Thanks Toot - that's exactly the info I was after as well as an insight into what lies ahead.

 

I'd already have to make compromises on the XC60 over a Kodiaq, but you've just confirmed a PHEV Hybrid makes zero sense. Recently replaced a Karoq with a little Toyota self-charging hybrid and although it's not my cup of tea, the main driver is now seeing around a 15mpg increase over the 1.5tsi.  Haven't gone in to the Volvo in any detail as yet so not sure how efficient the hybrid is, but I'm guessing that when the battery is depleated, it'll be a 2L petrol lugging around what is a heavy car ( 2.5 tonne I think ). So if electricity works out more expensive than petrol...   5HIT !  I think I can safely shelve the PHEV idea.

 

thanks again.

Edited 19 August, 20232 yr by kodiaqsportline

The XC60 is very unlikely to get 40 miles on EV power other than in ideal conditions, road and weather. 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Expensive dc public chargers I only use for 10 or maybe 15 kWh just to get me home with a safe margin.

 

 

Can certainly see the sense in 'splash and dash' for a full EV now the pricing has been explained.

 

Off subject but I noticed a little Volvo EV that was waiting to go in to the showroom - looked OK from a distance and the sticker said from £30k ( or there abouts, never paid that much attention ). My immediate thought was that's OK for someone who's in the market for a smallish new EV with a 'badge'. But when I read stuff like what you say....   Put's a whole new twist on range anxiety

3 minutes ago, toot said:

The XC60 is very unlikely to get 40 miles on EV power other than in ideal conditions, road and weather. 

 

You may well be right, but not going to waste my time testing it to find out. 

2 hours ago, kodiaqsportline said:

Thanks - I get that but it's a hybrid with a range of approx 40 miles therefore charging away from home would have to be taken in to consideration.

The best thing with PHEV is that if public charging is expensive, you can hit preserve charge mode and not use the battery until you need it. You get to choose which fuel type you use to maximise savings.

 

I think someone said their break-even point is 57p/kWh (IIRC?). Home charging is 9.5p/kWh (or 7.5 p/kWh if you get Ohme charger and Intelligent Octopus). So for your local journeys, you have the potential cut down fuel cost by over 80%.

 

For example, to charge empty-to-full a 78 kWh 330 miles WLTP rated EV only costs £6.30 for me. It's about 2.5p/mile.

17 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The best thing with PHEV is that if public charging is expensive, you can hit preserve charge mode and not use the battery until you need it. You get to choose which fuel type you use to maximise savings.

 

I think someone said their break-even point is 57p/kWh (IIRC?). Home charging is 9.5p/kWh (or 7.5 p/kWh if you get Ohme charger and Intelligent Octopus). So for your local journeys, you have the potential cut down fuel cost by over 80%.

 

For example, to charge empty-to-full a 78 kWh 330 miles WLTP rated EV only costs £6.30 for me. It's about 2.5p/mile.

 

Thanks for that. As I say, I'm an ignoramiss when it comes to these EV's or plugin hybrids, but my initial thought when reading your 'preserve charge' reply was,   is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

Totally get what you're saying, but when you say you can preserve the charge, doesn't that mean a petrol engine having to lug around a heavy battery?

We have a little Toyota non-plugin hybrid and the engine seems to top up the battery (if needed) when coasting. Not sure if the Volvo just uses generative braking to top up the battery or if it works like the Toyota. From what I've read about XC60 T6 owners real-world figures in hybrid mode, it doesn't appear to be very efficient. In petrol only mode it's damned right thirsty - they struggle to get 30mpg.   

 

From what I've gathered from above replies, for the private motorist at least, a PHEV 'may' make sense if the car only does relatively short journies from home or from where you can find cheaper charging. For the company driver I'm sure there will be tax advantages but that's of no interest to me.

 

For the way I use a car, it'd be a step down in functionality moving from my Kodiaq to an XC60 anyway, it's only redeeming features were it's a better finished car and it'd keep the Green lobby happy. Well, up to a point - are they ever happy?   

Edited 20 August, 20232 yr by kodiaqsportline

5 hours ago, kodiaqsportline said:

my initial thought when reading your 'preserve charge' reply was,   is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

Totally get what you're saying, but when you say you can preserve the charge, doesn't that mean a petrol engine having to lug around a heavy battery?

We have a little Toyota non-plugin hybrid and the engine seems to top up the battery (if needed) when coasting. Not sure if the Volvo just uses generative braking to top up the battery or if it works like the Toyota. From what I've read about XC60 T6 owners real-world figures in hybrid mode, it doesn't appear to be very efficient. In petrol only mode it's damned right thirsty - they struggle to get 30mpg.   

I've no experience of PHEV myself. But I did briefly consider the Octavia PHEV as direct replacement for my previous Octavia diesel, before deciding to just go the simplicity route with a long range BEV.

From my understanding is that "preserve charge" is similar to non-plug-in hybrid, where it aims to keep at a rough charge level but you still get benefit of electrified powertrain. Yes, compared to regular hybrid, in that mode PHEV have the disadvantage of lugging around an unnecessarily large battery.

Volvo are not known for their efficiency TBH.

 

5 hours ago, kodiaqsportline said:

From what I've gathered from above replies, for the private motorist at least, a PHEV 'may' make sense if the car only does relatively short journies from home

This.

Considering the short EV range, PHEV requires more plugging in than a long range BEV and thus more effort to keep using it in EV mode. No PHEV can do 60 miles, so if I were to buy one, I'd have to plug in at both ends of my 30 miles commute. It's worse EV than my Nissan Leaf having to lug around an ICE as dead weight. It's got best and worst of both worlds, depend on your daily driving pattern.

 

 

12 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Considering the short EV range, PHEV requires more plugging in than a long range BEV

 

Curiosity got the better of me when I parked in Tillicoultry ( Clackmannanshire ) yesterday which I remember was the first 'free' public charger I'd ever seen some years ago.

 

Std charge is 48p per kwh which, according to Toot's calcs above,  is more expensive than fuel. But not only that, they impose a min charge of £5. So even if I just wanted to top-up to get me home  😲    I thought the idea was to encourage the uptake of low / zero emission vehicles? 

 

Wow!  I'm just amazed at all of this. I'd assumed the EV part of a PHEV would mean fuel costs calculated in pennies rather than pounds, I didn't realise it came with the caveat as long as you don't use your PHEV for anything more than the school run or trips to the local supermarket.

Edited 21 August, 20232 yr by kodiaqsportline

You can achieve ultra-cheap motoring by charging at home using off-peak tariff. The key is to carry as much of that cheap electricity as possible, something PHEV cannot do. 

For example, I did 177 miles for less than £4 last weekend. Charge up at home and ready for another 300 miles of cheap motoring. 

 

According to this guy's calculations, from London, one can to drive to Leicester much cheaper than ICE.

Because public charging is expensive, the drive only gets more expensive when the journey distance gets close to Scotland. 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/ice-fuel-costs-cheaper-if-driving-to-scotland-and-back.179558/

 

The price of electricity for business is not directly controlled by government, there is also 20% tax as opposed to residential 5% tax. So public charging is expensive at market rate. 

 

The encouragement for uptake of PHEV happened about 8 years ago (IIRC?), low company car tax, zero congestion charge. For next 2 years the encouragement is for update of BEV: zero road tax, very low company car tax, zero congestion charge. BEV gravy train ends in 2025. 

 

Sadly my 7.5p per kWH tariff goes on the 16th of September and with the Zoe doing 4.5 miles per Kwh it is chuffing economic.

As I said the home chargers are about 90% efficient so a battery full of 52 kWh for the Zoe would have taken about 57 kWh of power from the house at £4.28 and that would give me about 230 miles of range so about 1.86 pence per mile.  Just booking my B service with the Zoe which is about half the price of an ICE car service, as was the A service.

 

From 17th of September I will be paying 9.5p for my night time rate so a massive 27% increase but by day time rate is falling from 40p per kWh to 29 p per kWh with Octopus so happy days.  LEcky and gas £300 in credit, standing order £125 per month even with charging an EV for 7.5k miles per year, happy days. 

 

Good to hear residual values are bouncing back strongly now as dropping to half value in 2 years was a bit shocking but it seems many drivers are seeing the economic sense of an EV in running costs, if they can buy them for a bit less than an new or newish ICE car, particularly as a second car or runaround, unless a TESLA which can do it all of course, charge cheaper, is safer etc etc.