Hmm, Impure thoughts about a hybrid Felicia/Fabia lump...

[WoodieGuthrie]

After hearing on that the 1.4 8v found in fabia classics (2002) model is a long stroke version of the 1.3, I was wondering if its just a case of changing the crank and timing to get a 1.4 felicia lump?

Whats the power difference between the lumps?

All this is purely hypothetical, but a man can dream,eh!

[ugluk]

Not only the crank but also the rods, it uses a long throw crank and short rods so TDV is same height between 1300 and 1400 but bdc is a little lower giving the capacity increase. Not heard any comments as yet as to whether or not the 1.4 crank will fit straight into the 1.3 case, the block itself was altered significantly so there is a chance the journal spacing etc could be different. Power difference is minimal think it takes the power to somewhere in the mid 70's far better is that it gives the potential with larger bore cylnder liners to go up to 1500 and to give more performance increase with a big valve gas flowed cylinder head. but by itself the difference probably isnt worth the effort.

There is a probelm with the flywheel as well, the fabia crank is 6 bolt and the felicia 4. The fabia flywheel is a different depth to the felicia, its a minto engineering challenge overall but it does take it one step further from a "bolt on" power boost.

[TeflonTom]

:iagree: it's probably not worth it! the performance gains are negligable, probably better off sticking a lairy cam in the 1.3

[WoodieGuthrie]

Not only the crank but also the rods, it uses a long throw crank and short rods so TDV is same height between 1300 and 1400 but bdc is a little lower giving the capacity increase. Not heard any comments as yet as to whether or not the 1.4 crank will fit straight into the 1.3 case, the block itself was altered significantly so there is a chance the journal spacing etc could be different. Power difference is minimal think it takes the power to somewhere in the mid 70's far better is that it gives the potential with larger bore cylnder liners to go up to 1500 and to give more performance increase with a big valve gas flowed cylinder head. but by itself the difference probably isnt worth the effort.

There is a probelm with the flywheel as well, the fabia crank is 6 bolt and the felicia 4. The fabia flywheel is a different depth to the felicia, its a minto engineering challenge overall but it does take it one step further from a "bolt on" power boost.

So I assume if Longer rods (eg standard 1.3 ones) were used, then there would be litlle increase in capacit, but a drop in TDV- effectively raising the CR? assuming of course, the pistons didnt come out the top of the block and smash the valves....

thanks for that info- pointed out a fair few things to consider:thumbup:

[TeflonTom]

iirc they have the same length conrods, but the pistons have a different compression height, fitting different length rods doesn't alter the capaicity because the swept volume is still the same... it will affect the compression ratio tho

[WoodieGuthrie]

:iagree: it's probably not worth it! the performance gains are negligable, probably better off sticking a lairy cam in the 1.3

heh. if It got a crank you could bet your bottom dollar it'd have a cam too- I mean, that lump is cryin out to be modified, manual tappets and chain driven... just like the s14 in the e30 m3:rofl:

[TeflonTom]

then get a dcoe type manifold and run it on 40mm throttle bodies

[WoodieGuthrie]

iirc they have the same length conrods, but the pistons have a different compression height, fitting different length rods doesn't alter the capaicity because the swept volume is still the same... it will affect the compression ratio tho

hmmm. fun fun fun. I'll have a hunt about and see what I can find..

whats the engine codes for the 1.3 and 1.4 then?

[WoodieGuthrie]

then get a dcoe type manifold and run it on 40mm throttle bodies

dunno about TB's PITA to fabricate.Thinking getting the car and doing some basic tuning, like head and cams, manifold and take it from there. crank looks to be fun

Looks like the Fabia offers less BHP than the stock felicia????? 59 vs 68?

Felicia 1.3

ManufacturerSkodaTypeS-4 OHV

8 valves total

2 valves per cylinderMain bearingsConstructionBore

[TeflonTom]

it looks like from those technical details that they have the same crank anyhow because the stroke is the same, it's just a case of fitting the larger liners/pistons from the 1.4 then....easy

the difference in power will be mostly to do with cam profiles

[WoodieGuthrie]

it looks like from those technical details that they have the same crank anyhow because the stroke is the same, it's just a case of fitting the larger liners/pistons from the 1.4 then....easy

the difference in power will be mostly to do with cam profiles

I seem to remeber that there was a high comp version of the 1.3 in the felicia.. thats probably where the 68bhp comes from...

I can see that the cams could have something to do with it.Wonder if a Felicia Cam would work on a Fabia then. Looking at the stats, the Fabia is awfully underpowered compared to the Felicia

[TeflonTom]

having a higher compression ratio doesn't give you more power, it just makes certain parts of the rev range more efficient, and less at other rpms...

have a look on google for the 136 & 135 engines..

[WoodieGuthrie]

the 135 has comp ratio of 8.8:1, and power of 53bhp at 5k rpm

the 136 is showing comp ratio of 9.7:1 and power of 61 at 5k rpm...

Certainly, I can see that there will be a difference, but can you put an alleged 8bhp down to better efficiency at one point in rev range? would it not carry that almost all the way?

I dont know!

[TeflonTom]

forgive my forgetfullnes, but i think the 136 is multipoint injection, and the 135 in single point, which is where the power gain would come from.... might be wrong on that tho, would have to look it up

[WoodieGuthrie]

in the favorit they're showing as having carbs...

I can see how Mpi would help, but both the felicia lumps and teh fabia ones are Mpi...

[TeflonTom]

right i've looked it up now

135B 8.8:1 single point injection

136B 9.7:1 single point injection

135M 8.8:1 multipoint injection

136M 9.7:1 multipoint injection

also they are listed as having different camshafts which is where the performance difference comes from

the felicia was fitted with both single and multipoint injection engines

[WoodieGuthrie]

right i've looked it up now

135B 8.8:1 single point injection

136B 9.7:1 single point injection

135M 8.8:1 multipoint injection

136M 9.7:1 multipoint injection

also they are listed as having different camshafts which is where the performance difference comes from

the felicia was fitted with both single and multipoint injection engines

Excellent, thank you sir.

Think My brother has the 135M as it doesnt have the "yellow" skoda badge on the head, indicating hicomp (according to handbook)

where did you aquire this info? I'm using carfolio.com

[TeflonTom]

i've got loads of tech books on the old skool skoda engines, but i think that info may even be in the haynes manual??

[WoodieGuthrie]

i've got loads of tech books on the old skool skoda engines, but i think that info may even be in the haynes manual??

prepare to be pestered if this goes ahead then:rofl:

thanks for all the info, i'll best be getting on with the 3 projects I have to complete before starting this one:thumbup:

[TeflonTom]

i'm starting my own felicia project in the very near future, so watch this space....

but i've decided to not use a skoda engine, i'm sticking with what i know best, vw engine

[WoodieGuthrie]

i'm starting my own felicia project in the very near future, so watch this space....

but i've decided to not use a skoda engine, i'm sticking with what i know best, vw engine

Best of British sir, and I'll look forward to a long, detailed thread with many photos:thumbup:

[TeflonTom]

i've got a felicia sat in my back garden waiting... just getting all the parts together before i attempt anything on it...

but i'll give you a clue.......

[ugluk]

Right what you had was:

favorit:-

135 Carb 52ish hp

136 Carb 61 hp

135 SPI 55ish hp

136 SPI 67 hp

Felicia

135 spi 55ish HP

136 spi 67 HP

135 mpi 57ish hp

136 mpi 68hp

The fabia Used long throw crank to gain its capacity NOT an increase in bore, Ive had one of these engines apart here The block is the same size as the original in height so no clearance problems there.

The high Compression DOES increase power not just efficiency in certain areas, more squish more bang its not about tuning the engine at rev ranges its just about the more you compress the gass the bigger the bang you get, however the more risk of damage to the engine through detonation.

The MPI equipped engines also have a different cylinder head using a different casting they have an improved port shape narrower stem valves and single valve springs instead of the earlier double valve springs. The MPI head is a better flowing production head but most of the advantages will be lost through any degree of porting so you will do better to retain the double valve spring design earlier head (identical between 135 and 136 models)

The bore of a 136 engine is 75.5 the stroke is 72

the bore of a fabia 1.4 mpi engine is 75.5 the stroke is 78 Thats the stroke enlarged not the bore, the pistons remain the same size. Shorter rods on a long throw crank DOES increase swept volume, with shorter rods on longer throw crank the TDC position remains the same the crank is throwing it further up but the shorter rod makes up the difference so the TDC position is the same now rotate the crank 180 degrees the longer crank throw is pulling the piston further down the cylinder and the shorter rods are making it even further down the cylinder - bigger difference between TDC and BDC - more swept volume. Shorter rods are going to be lighter as well. Although I guess manufacturers would know best which is the bigges risk between moving the rings closer together and shortening the skirt or shortening the rods and giving them greater angles to deal with.

I have to say I didnt measure the rods when I was measuring up the engine I was more interested in whether it would physically fit, and what could be donw about ignition and cylinder heads \ cams etc. Have to say moveing the gudgeon pin 6mm further up the sidewall of a 136 piston doesnt sound too clever... Thats nearly half the skirt gone :(.

Another difference ont he fabia engine is the use of hydraulic lifters although apparantly these can be removed and standard pushrods used.

I unfortunately traded my 1400 fabia engine for a roll cage when I decided to go endurance rallying with my favorit instead of stage rallying. So I havent got an engine in front of me anymore. However there are 4 or 5 other rally drivers out there going about the 1400 conversion in various ways, some people using fabia management some people going megasquirt and some converting to dizzy in a 136 block I believe.

[WoodieGuthrie]

:drool: :thumbup:

[ugluk]

engitec will sell you built engines at good prices as well engitec these guys apparantly are used to work on ex works cars over in CZ.