4x4 v ESP

[riph72]

Hello all,

I've been looking into getting the 4x4 estate for a while and because my need for a 4x4 is not exactly overwhelming (I expect to be travelling down the odd farm track every couple of months), I've been wondering if perhaps a car fitted with ESP (inc. EDL) might actually do the job I require of it? The thing is, as far as I can read, this system is designed to avoid loss of control during cornering etc, rather than being a poor man's 4WD... how useful is it likely to be in conditions of low grip? I expect to have to deal with slippery campsites and steep singletrack lanes now and again, possibly in icy conditions too.

Regards,

Richard.

[WW_VRS]

ESP is as you say, more for trying to keep the car pointing in the right direction (ie where you are pointing your steering wheel) rather than giving (mechanical) grip. 4x4 will provide more traction ability.

ESP cannot fix grip if the front wheels loose traction, whereas 4x4 would have the 2 rear wheels to assist.

Best is combination of both I guess

I am a great fan of ESP as a backup safety feature, but 4x4, weight and fuel consumption aside, gives more grip for the conditions you mention

[riph72]

ESP is as you say, more for trying to keep the car pointing in the right direction (ie where you are pointing your steering wheel) rather than giving (mechanical) grip. 4x4 will provide more traction ability.

ESP cannot fix grip if the front wheels loose traction, whereas 4x4 would have the 2 rear wheels to assist.

Best is combination of both I guess

I am a great fan of ESP as a backup safety feature, but 4x4, weight and fuel consumption aside, gives more grip for the conditions you mention

Ok,

Thanks, that's my justification sorted then

R.

[London Les]

To upset the apple cart, I struggled with the 2WD Elegance vs 4x4 debate for ages and settled on the 2WD with ESP.

This includes electronic diff lock and anti wheelspin control, and I think this is enough for most real situations.

There are some great (almost unbelieveable) demos on Youtube of cars climbing icey slopes in Norway just using EDL to prevent spinning. Convinced me that the benefit wasn't worth the cost in terms of capital outlay and fuel consumption.

[riph72]

To upset the apple cart, I struggled with the 2WD Elegance vs 4x4 debate for ages and settled on the 2WD with ESP.

This includes electronic diff lock and anti wheelspin control, and I think this is enough for most real situations.

There are some great (almost unbelieveable) demos on Youtube of car climbing icey slopes just using EDL to prevent spinning.

I'll do a search when I get home, but any chance you can put up a link or two from Youtube so I know I'm watching the right clips?

Cheers,

R.

[skomaz]

Well I guess it depends on how much traction you actually need - for example are you towing? If so then the 4x4 would probably be the better option (and it comes with ESP as standard as well).

ESP on it's own isn't going to help as it is a stability programme - you need ASR (Anti Skid Regulation) or the equivalent, which from my experience of it in snow on our Fabia is actually pretty good given decent tyres. In seven years of commuting over the Cat and Fiddle on a daily basis in all weathers my wife never got stuck which should give you a pretty good indication of its capabilities.

Having said that though - when push came to shove and we purchased another car 4x4 was one of the main criteria, primarily for her commute.

[riph72]

Well I guess it depends on how much traction you actually need - for example are you towing? If so then the 4x4 would probably be the better option (and it comes with ESP as standard as well).

ESP on it's own isn't going to help as it is a stability programme - you need ASR (Anti Skid Regulation) or the equivalent, which from my experience of it in snow on our Fabia is actually pretty good given decent tyres. In seven years of commuting over the Cat and Fiddle on a daily basis in all weathers my wife never got stuck which should give you a pretty good indication of its capabilities.

Having said that though - when push came to shove and we purchased another car 4x4 was one of the main criteria, primarily for her commute.

No towing, worst case scenario is 4 adults plus lots of light camping kit.

I understand that when you include ESP as an option on the Octavia, it includes ASR+EDL+"some other things" (I think you have to select ESP in order to get any of these, you can't have them individually). ASR merely reduces engine power if it detects a skidding wheel, I think the really vital one is the EDL, which brakes a spinning wheel to shift traction to the other side.

R.

[London Les]

I'll sort the Youtube clips when I get home. Cheers, Les.

[skomaz]

They must have changed things slightly then - the ASR or whatever it is we have on the Fabia also brakes the spinning wheel via the ABS unit (you can hear and feel it working). It's actually pretty good as well. On packed snow and ice I've dropped the clutch and booted it and the car has pulled away really well with little or no wheelspin.

[ScoobyChris]

IIRC (and I probably don't!) EDL is part of the ASR package and can only transfer power by braking one of the driven wheels. As such, it only operates on the front wheels. ESP is able to do this but also able to individually brake all of the wheels to try and maintain the direction of travel in which the front wheels are pointing.

Tbh, I don't think you'll really need 4wd unless you do a lot of driving on surfaces where the front wheels lose grip entirely.

Chris

[billybskoda]

All depends on the situation.

I almost needed a tractor at Hiver castle to get my stage 1 chipped Mk1 Rs out of a car park that was a field on the side of a gentle slope when it had rained slightly for an hour, whereas I have no problems ascending a bridleway on the South Downs in a Ford Fester 1.4 diseasal.

I remember growing up in rural Wales when the only people driving 4x4s were the ones that needed them - farmers. That was the 1980s!!!!

[WW_VRS]

EDL is restricted to certain (low) speeds only.

'proper' 4x4 (although it's haldex I guess so only used when needed) will do a lot more

[gregozedobe]

No towing, worst case scenario is 4 adults plus lots of light camping kit.

Oh well, with three adults to push you can save your money and just get a 2WD. If you happen to get stuck, they get their feet muddy while you stay in the car because you have to drive

Seriously, how bad are these farm tracks you want to drive on, and how often ? Sometimes a FWD car is able to drive up a slope in reverse that it can't drive up in a forward direction.

A lot depends on driver skill (selection of the best line, maintaining momentum, throttle control, using second or even third gear rather than first, and keeping the revs low so the wheels don't start to slip). If you aren't confident/experienced, maybe a driving lesson from a (off-road type) 4WD driving instructor may be a good investment.

Tyres can also help or hinder (some tread patterns clog up with mud more than others).

If you need extra ground clearance then a Scout may be your only sensible Octavia based solution.

[skomaz]

If you need extra ground clearance then a Scout may be your only sensible Octavia based solution.

The standard 4x4 has 35mm extra over normal Ambiente and Scout has a further 19mm extra over 4x4 from memory.

[WW_VRS]

Test drive I guess in bad conditions?

I must admit, having seen the Scout, I really do like the look of it

[London Les]

This is the clip I was thinking of - it goes on a bit, but the ice slopes are quite impressive.

Cheers,

Les.

[riph72]

This is the clip I was thinking of - it goes on a bit, but the ice slopes are quite impressive.

Cheers,

Les.

Thanks, I'd actually located that myself earlier, it's very impressive, has made me seriously wonder if I do actually need 4x4. However, I also did a search on the Skoda website and nearly every Octavia Estate with ESP is a 4x4 anyway, so I'd be buying new!

Despite seeing that video, it's still quite hard to beleive a car can get up that ice with only 2WD

R.

[riph72]

To upset the apple cart, I struggled with the 2WD Elegance vs 4x4 debate for ages and settled on the 2WD with ESP.

This includes electronic diff lock and anti wheelspin control, and I think this is enough for most real situations.

There are some great (almost unbelieveable) demos on Youtube of cars climbing icey slopes in Norway just using EDL to prevent spinning. Convinced me that the benefit wasn't worth the cost in terms of capital outlay and fuel consumption.

Seeing as you've gone for the 2WD option and have seen the YouTube video, do you think the car lives up to this in real life conditions?

Have you ever regretted not getting the 4WD, or has the 2WD been sufficient? What kind of ground have you had to tackle with it?

Cheers,

Richard.

[phiL&K]

Go for 4x4 its worth it.

I used to have a TT quattro, now SWMBO got A3 Quattro Sport (had to grow up a bit), no matter what you do with the car there is always sufficent traction.

Safer by miles.

Does not add too much to the mpg as the majority of the time the haldex is freewheeling and only switches in when a small amount of slippage at the front occurs. (incidentally the oil change interval for the Haldex on the A3 is now 38000miles.)

Tried to get a Scout as my company car, but they would only let me have the L&K.

Shame:)

[London Les]

I went for the 2WD ESP option and found:

1. The fuel consumption isn't that much better than the Scout I had on a weekend test drive. I got over 40mpg out of the Scout and the best I've had out of the 2WD Elegance is about 46 on a motorway run, so driving style has a bigger impact than the mechanics.

2. The ESP has cut in a couple of times exiting roundabouts in third on wet greasy days, but that's about it. No great problem with traction with 140bhp. The Scout on the test drive was great though - didn't miss a beat on steep gravelly tracks in Somerset.

3. More ground clearance in the Scout is a real asset with the mountainous road humps around where I live - I have grounded out the Elegance when fully loaded and not been able to line up nicely on speed cushions. God knows what it would be like with the VRS. The Scout & 4x4 is also easier to get in and out of - a consideration if you have ancient rellies.

It's a close run thing - they are both great cars in my opinion. If I was buying again I would be tempted by DSG...

[BillH]

Just read this thread and watched the video - bear in mind these cars will have been fitted with new (maximum tread) winter tyres (special formulation and tread pattern) to give significantly better grip than you would ever experience in a real-life situation (normal tread pattern on part-worn tyres) where Tiff may very well not have made it up that icy slope with just two wheel drive!

[riph72]

Just read this thread and watched the video - bear in mind these cars will have been fitted with new (maximum tread) winter tyres (special formulation and tread pattern) to give significantly better grip than you would ever experience in a real-life situation (normal tread pattern on part-worn tyres) where Tiff may very well not have made it up that icy slope with just two wheel drive!

What would be the downside of using winter tyres in summer? I guess stopping distances would be worse?

R.

[theo 4x4]

if you got the money,go for 4x4.you will never ever regret it!

[Jonah81]

What would be the downside of using winter tyres in summer? I guess stopping distances would be worse?

R.

They are very soft, you can feel the car respond a lot slower when turning the wheel sharply. At warm weather, the grip isn't nearly as good as on summer tyres. Also they are usually limited to 160kph. Maybe it's due to the softness, don't know. The rubber is very different than on summer tyres.

I remember watching a video ages ago in where a test driver drove fast through a slalom course using tires that had different speed ratings, in the summer. The last one was the studless winter tyre, and he barely could control the car. It was all over the place.

Studded tyres are also crap on tarmac, even in winter. Very noisy and soft. In summer they would be very noisy and very very soft. Until the studs would fly away, ruining the tires and the windshield of anyone driving behind you

[LetoThe2nd]

What would be the downside of using winter tyres in summer? I guess stopping distances would be worse?

R.

Additional problem with using winter tires in summer is:

You ruin them - if winter tires overheat, which they will in summer (at for example normal motorway speeds), the rubber changes its properties, and they become hard in the cold - so they are useless in winter.

Beside this you get worse performance (grip, braking, and MPG) - previous car I had (a small one, used small cheap tires) I calculated that with about 15 - 20 000 km, I do with summer (non winter) tires, I get so much better MPG, that I can buy new summer tires with the savings from not using winter tires.

Cheers, Leto

PS - here we have one of the strictest winter tire regulations - they are mandatory from 15th nov - 15th march (+ whenever there is snow on the road)

(Well you can use summer tires and have snow chains ready, but even summer tires must have 3.6mm of tread left in winter - 1.6 in summer I think).